Is the Dream State Just As Real and Valid as being Awake?

How many here have 'awakened' during the Dream State within the dream, only to realize that you are still dreaming, 'asleep' but wide awake in the dream?

With all the references to OBE, Out of the Body certainly proves, to those that have experienced it, that "Death Is Impossible". Your consciousness is outside of the body and yet you still live.

My question is whether or not the Dream State is a valid forum for experiences and thus a valid arena for working through our individual Karma?

I think it's a really good question. I'm just not really an authority on the subject so I wasn't going to post but since nobody else is I will. I never thought it would have any karmic influence so to speak, but now that I think about it, I think it must, and I may try to watch myself in my dreams more now that you make me think about it.

I like to think of it as proving life after death, but honestly the body could be acting as a battery no? You have energy coming from your living body powering your dream existence, when it is dead, what will "power" your spirit?

[edit on 15-5-2006 by Novise]

Originally posted by StarLord
My question is whether or not the Dream State is a valid forum for experiences and thus a valid arena for working through our individual Karma?

You're talking about lucid dreaming. And 99 times out of 100 when it happens to me, I try very hard to fly into the nearest high school girl's locker room. So I don't think that's doing a whole lot for my karma.

That's interesting. Of course evening out the balance for peeping during the dream should prove interesting.

My question lies more in the direction of our chosen Karma. Suppose we have chosen to experience a car accident or something of that sort. By going through it during the Dream State, we experience the same thing and it does not affect our 'daily' life too much. Would dreams of this nature count?

Lucid dreams, dreams where you choose what you experience, aren't very common. You can train yourself to recognize you're dreaming and "awaken". There are many books out there about this, and I recommend Stephen LaBerge's books. Lucid dreams can be used for self improvement very efficiently, many people use them to get over their fear of heights by jumping off cliffs in their dreams, only to realize they can just fly away. Lucid dreams have a very positive influence on peoples' lives. After a lucid dream, you may wake up a happier person in the morning.

Destrolude,

The question is though is the Dream State a valid realm for experiences?

Originally posted by Hermes Trismegitus
You're talking about lucid dreaming. And 99 times out of 100 when it happens to me, I try very hard to fly into the nearest high school girl's locker room. So I don't think that's doing a whole lot for my karma.

Hermes (and Starlord,)

Consider, in the same vein as what Starlord says, that perhaps you might have actually gone to the girl's locker room in waking life, but instead this activity is fulfilled in your dream life on, say, a nightly basis.

Now consider the karmic debt you would incur if you actually peeped, versus the debt you incur by only dreaming the activity. Not being an expert, I can't say, but I would think that the debt would be much, much higher for one real peep than it would be for an entire lifetime of "dream peeps."

So, if your decision was to really peep, but it got sidetracked by "dream peeping," would that not be an actual reduction in the karmic debt that you would have incurred? And if so, then isn't that the same thing as actually "working off" the debt, though you hadn't actually incurred it yet?

Harte

Harte,

Thats, a very good point. However, I don't think that's quite how it might work. If I am not mistaken Karma worked through or experienced, is lesser in the Dream State nor does it have a negative value.

Perhaps some of the Esoteric experts here might care to comment?

Originally posted by Harte
So, if your decision was to really peep, but it got sidetracked by "dream peeping," would that not be an actual reduction in the karmic debt that you would have incurred? And if so, then isn't that the same thing as actually "working off" the debt, though you hadn't actually incurred it yet?

In that regard... no. Say I was a selfish jerk (and as far as you know, I may very well be a selfish jerk). And suppose every night in my dreams I give a million dollars to poor people. That is still not going to help me work off my selfish jerk karma.

The difference will always be whether or not it makes a difference to other people. If, via my dreams, I don't do something bad, it doesn't add up any faster than if I do something good in my dreams. Because nobody is directly affected.

And who knows, perhaps my karma would be better worked out if I actually did go and peep in the girl's locker room. Karma is funny, in that it's not always about following the rules. It's about doing what I'm supposed to do to move through life and maybe balance out the Universe. And sometimes that could require some active peeping, and not passive giving millions to poor people in my dreams.

That's probably why it's been written that a good portion of Karma may be just ignorance of what Karma actually is in the first place.

You wrote 'How many here have 'awakened' during the Dream State within the dream, only to realize that you are still dreaming, 'asleep' but wide awake in the dream? '

My situation is just the opposite, I wake up and find myself still dreaming wide awake.
Such was the case in a dream I had about John Lennon which I just posted on my 'Telepathic Incoming Negativity' thread.

Personally, and this is also just an opinion, I do not really think that anyone who claims to wide awake in a dream is doing anything more than dreaming they are wide awake. And to write the truth, I have never had a dream that I was not awake. I had the feeling I fell to sleep during a dream and woke up again and did this several times before I actually woke up. But as far as not being awake in a dream, the opposite of being asleep in a dream, other than the sense of being outside my dream body and looking at it asleep, I am always awake in my dreams.
So I don't relate to lucid dreaming as anything more special than just dreaming.
Also it is easier to remember a dream that starts in a sleeping state and continues after I wake up, especially in this situation when I was conversing with a John Lennon memory energy entity.

peace
Honor Seed

The difference is that you realize you are dreaming, while inside the dream. That's really the main difference between a normal dream and a lucid dream. Beyond that, typically the dreamer can take control of the dream in some fashion. If you can see your dream body, then it seems to me you are on a much different level than a lucid dream.

I think many dreams are real experiences in other dimensions.
Just as in the physical waking state, you have a certain degree of free will, hence you have an according amount of responsibility for your actions.
Your level of awareness may be higher or lower in relation to the physical waking state. You may do things you wouldn't do in the physical and wonder why apon awaking.
In a lucid dream you are very much aware that you are not in the physical dimension that your physical body remains in while it sleeps (standby mode), yet you more or less have a similar level of awareness to when you are physically awake, hence a similar level of responsibility for your actions would apply.

Originally posted by Novise
I like to think of it as proving life after death, but honestly the body could be acting as a battery no? You have energy coming from your living body powering your dream existence, when it is dead, what will "power" your spirit?

[edit on 15-5-2006 by Novise]

I'd like to try to help clear up a few things here if I may.
The body as a battery. No, actauly it's the opposite. The body is nothing more than a fleshly machine, a very temperary one at that. We spend a very VERY little time in this body. The spirit would be the driving power - the battery. The spirit slips out of the body (leaving us 'dead' physicaly) and continues on.

As far as the body, the living vs dead, the power/energy and all these things having to do with dreaming...
This body (the brain and physical dealings with the mind/body/spirit messing together in a way we are mostly unaware of) needs these dream states for many different reasons. (Let's just talk about the regular typical non profecti dream here).
When we leave this body, the need for dreaming (just as with eating, drinking, sleeping etc) is no longer valid. There will be no dreaming out of the physical body. The body isn't powering the dream thing - the dream thing just happens to be a nessasary part of this physical bodies existance. Just as eating and sleeping are nessasary for this body.

Does this shed any light on things, or have I confused you more?

Originally posted by Hermes Trismegitus

Originally posted by StarLord
My question is whether or not the Dream State is a valid forum for experiences and thus a valid arena for working through our individual Karma?

You're talking about lucid dreaming. And 99 times out of 100 when it happens to me, I try very hard to fly into the nearest high school girl's locker room. So I don't think that's doing a whole lot for my karma.

There are alot of factors to talk about when one poses a question about 'karma'.
Some of which include culture, the persons ideas and beliefs, all the typical phychological and social (individual and as a society) markers you'd take into consideration for anything of this nature and understanding.

Let me give an example if I may, before I even answer this question.

Let's say a person comes to me with a problem. This problem is deep seeded and it has physical, emotional and mental reamifications - just as ANY problem would for ANY person (weather the problem is real or just a belief). This probelm the person comes to me with is something that is fabricated in his or her own mind. She believes that she is living in 2 worlds, 2 dementions at the same time. She believes that living in 2 worlds at the same time is causeing all of her anxiety, headachs and body pains, inability to focus and consentrate, nightmares, and any other symptoms we might be able to come up with.

Now, knowing that this person doesn not actualy live in 2 worlds at the same time, how are we going to treat her symptoms? No amount of medication, antipsychotic, pain meds, anti anxiety etc will end her problems because the main problem (as she believes it to be) is that she is devided and liveing the duel existance.

Our plan of treatment would have to include her belief.
This means we treat her for the problem she precieves she has. Once this patient is being 'treated' for her 'problem' - her symptoms will begin to fade. In this case, maybe I'd let her go back with hipnosis and work out the issues she believes to be troubling her. There may not even be a need for medication after the counciling has been done.

I know you wonder why I went through all this to talk about Karma.
Karma is self made. It is true that there are reprocussions, consequences for all that we do. It is true that our possative or negative thoughts and feelings do actualy play a big part in shaping and creating our lives, it is true that the negative or possative thoughts etc from other people effect us as well, it is true that everything we do, everything we see, everyone we meet, talk to, don't talk to etc will cause a ripple effect on our life and the lives of everyone else (which is why it's just not wise to even bother asking for a prediction f the future). All these things being true - I am still not equating this with the word 'karma'.

Karma, to most people, means that what you do will boomarang around and bite you in the butt or reward you for your goodness. This isn't true. Energy is an action/reaction, cause and effect thing --- but energy is not spiteful or fair.

I hate to say "it depends", but it realy is an individual thing in this case.
So the answer is 2-fold. Yes, because it is a individual mind that may hold beliefs that would cause Karma to be a thing you can work out in dream.
But also no - because Karma, simply isn't a truth.











[edit on 5-17-2006 by AngelaLadyS]

Hi all

The first thing that came into my mind was this:

Quoting from Zhuangzhou's Dream of a Butterflly

"The butterfly is born and dies in the dream, or did the butterfly dream the other existence?"

Zhuang dreamed of changing into a butterfly and even forgetting that he was Zhuang, but when he woke up, he felt he was Zhuang again. Then he wondered which was true.

Zhuang dreaming of changing into a butterfly, or a butterfly dreaming of changing into Zhuang?

This is considered a daoist anecdote, an allusion is found, in the chapter "On the Equality of All Things" in the book of Master Zhuang.


It's a philosophical subject, on my point of view, but, nevertheless very interesting.




Good dreams everybody
Crustas

Angela,

Great post BTW, I enjoy your insight. My view of 'Karma' is the perfect modus operandi, set in motion millions upon millions of years ago, to insure we as Soul learn all that we need in order to progress. Once you get tired of beating your head against the same pole in the same fashion, you decide then there has to be a better way and beging to search for it.

As the concept of spirituality always has a plus element, there is always something more to learn, my concept of the Dream State and the levels beyond that state of consciousness are one for enfoldment and greater learning.

As it may be impossible to judge whether or not we have ballanced out karma gleened from a prior incarnation, and just as difficult to acertain whether or not the individual chooses to expereince something, such as a car accident, I was wondering if experiencing that same accident in the dream state, having the same sounds of screaching tires, broken glass, apearance of injuries etc... would qualify.

See, it seems to me that rather than disrupt our day to day life in such a large way, what about passing through the experience in that fashion?

Interesting questions all around. My personal views:

Do our actions in dreams affect our real-world "karma"?
No. Not any more than thinking about something in your "awake" life affects it. Every human being is capable of incredible good and horrendous evil. What differentiates positive and negative karma are our actions, not our thoughts. Dreams are a world of thought.

Now if one were to assume the Dream World were its own technically real world, then I would say your actions in-dream affect your karma in -that- world, but not the Waking World.

I once had a dream where I got into a car wreck and flew out the windshield. I knew I would die once I landed. As I flew through the air, in my final seconds I asked for forgiveness, and began reciting the Lord's prayer. In the waking world, I'm not a Christian.

What did it mean? Well... I haven't gone back to being a Christian, but it made me aware of some latent guilt at my lack of spirituality. I now pay a lot more attention to how often I blaspheme and try to pray when possible, usually to give thanks. I've made a good relationship with God, though I still don't buy into the whole Jesus cult. Every since that time, my life has become progressively better and better.

So I suppose you could say it affected my real-world karma, but only insomuch as it made me realize what I needed to change about myself.


What about OOBEs? Are those real?

Hard to say. I certainly don't pretend to think that we know everything about the body and mind that there is to know. However, if one is capable of projecting themselves outside the body, tapping into a sixth way of sensing the world, then it stands to reason we wouldn't be perceiving the world as sight or vision, but rather something else even more acute. As sleep "deprives" us of our normal five senses, then if a sixth sense does exist, this would be the time for it to be excercised the most. Perhaps that is why we sleep.

I dont kow much about karma, my name isn't Earl but as soon as someone finds out a way to control what you do in a dream without waking yourself up let me know! there are some places i would like to go.

Dont u just hate that when your dreaming and u suddenly realise that you're dreaming.. as soon as you realise thats it! Bang you're awake

Libra,

Hold on a moment my friend, does not the experience and begining realization take place in the Dream state? Did you not then *after* that experience, change your relationship with Spirit?