How to defend your self, on a budget.

Good point, Silk. I wonder what you could do to create a probable survival scenario for where you live. Your country is highly urbanized, highly restrictive about weapons. Therefore, if you SHOULD survive Situation X, your primary concerns are the human vermin and supplies. That's universal. But the big difference from myself or our American friends is that you really don't have any place to run.

So what are you to do?

Me, if Situation X happens, I'm probably the best off of anyone. The law keeps around around here from having any serious ordnance. The country is simply massive, and ahs the population of about the four biggest cities in the US. I just have to get out okay, and once I'm in the wild, I just have to battle nature.

There are a few issues where I don't think we've spent enough time:

1. Climate, and climate related issues. Where I live, in the winter, it gets COLD. In the UK, it's rainy a lot. My associates in the Sonora have a whole host of other problems. Have appropriate supplies for any conditions you may face.

2. Length of emergency. It could last a week, a year, the rest of your lifetime. Try to be aware. Me, personally, I'd rather not live in a yurt until I die. Remember that whole morale thing.

3.Speaking of, morale. You'll want something to be alive for. A man needs to relax. If you can, grab a good book.

4. Have a plan. Striking out on your own might seem appealing, or be the only course of action, but at least have a vague idea of destinations, food sources, etc.

Yes. My muddled thoughts.

DE

I'm sure someone already said this, but dummy cord, 550 cord, para cord, call it whatever, is a must. Also rope, caribiners, and cargo straps are great, not only for climbing but also for securing stuff and catching wild game.

Be sure to have good seasonal clothing on stand-by and always have a heavy coat and a good pair of gloves just in case. Personally, I like gortex. It's expensive, but well worth it, imo.


Great information in this thread. Libra, DE, Orange and GZ...great posts


[edit on 13/5/2006 by SportyMB]

When it comes to the breakdown of society, firepower is not the concern. The .22 Carbine my grandpa left me is plenty for that, although I suppose I wouldn't mind having a good .308 rifle with a bit more range.

You see, I don't plan on having to shoot anybody, because if society breaks down it is unwise to remain in society. If there is a natural disaster, a riot, a pandemic, or whatever else, I will put my camping gear in my pickup the minute things become apparent to me, and I will drive for about 20 minutes to a place where I used to work.

Just outside of town there's a construction yard. It's on a foothill of a small mountain, and to the front and sides there's nothing but sod-farms- flat open ground that can be easily observed.
To provide water for the concrete sand plant, there is a well that feeds a small pond, and the guys who worked there back when i did transplanted catfish into it for weekend fishing.
So I'd camp up there, keep myself well concealed, have a little fish and a little canned food, maybe set a couple of bird-snares if the problem in question wasn't birdflu, and scope out I-10 and the only road coming up the hill with my binoculars until things looked fairly normal.

In short, have a place to go that's unimportant and little-known. That's how you avoid having to shoot folks. Shooting folks just makes other folks want to shoot you. Shooting would be my last resort, cause once you do that you've probably got to move.

Antihero, you have it down. But others might get the same idea. And they might want your stuff. You might have to fight your way THROUGH said riot, or various infected persons if infectious disease is the issue. Me, like I said, I'll probably end up hunting, so firepower is a plus. Moose doesn't go down with a .22 .

I believe firmly in deterrence. Firepower discourages trouble. Especially when you ahve all them purdy su-pplies...

DE

I see your point DeusEx. I might be inclined to gun up a bit more if I lived in LA or the OC, but my way out of town doesn't lend itself well to any kind of resistance. It's non-commercial, it doesn't have a freeway ramp, and it's less than 5 miles long. If I needed a gun at all, i certainly wouldn't need the AK-47 that some members were suggesting.

The situation of the spot I've always had planned as my emergency hideout is pretty good and doesn't dictate the need to kill anyone, which I'm generally aversed to anyway.

Whenever practical I'm the kind of person to avoid people rather than kill them. If I were ever to kill anyone, odds are that it would stem from emotional need or desire more than from physical necessity.

I'd kill the next man that lays a violent hand on my mother, but truth be told I'd inconvenience myself and surrender a good spot if there was anywhere else to go at all before I killed anyone who hadn't acted with malice.

Beyond that my planned spot is so obscure that I wouldn't expect even a dozen other people to think of it, especially since there's a larger lake, country clubs, a small creek, and Big Bear all well under an hour away, plus 90 minutes of unobstructed I-10 all the way to the Colorado River on our East, since for all intents and purposes the only thing between my town and there is Desert Center. I'm the only idiot who'd settle for a hole in the ground like that construction yard.

The game/predator situation doesn't dictate firepower either, since the biggest thing I could expect would be coyotes.

Not to be completely anti-gun though. If society went down the tubes for good it would be another story. I'd want to rebuild a small one of my own. In that case I would want an assault rifle chambered to 5.56 NATO and a 9mm revolver, which would make me a little more comfortable going back into what was left of society to salvage parts and make friends.

Afterall, if that was all she wrote for society as we know it, but there were still people around, there's no since throwing your hands up. Shuffle yourself down to any libraries that may still be standing, salvage relevant works on maths, sciences, etc, (and hopefully you a person already at least has a basic understanding of technology so they aren't starting from scratch) and you start hunting down and rebuilding the things you need the most, hopefully finding decent people who want to help you build it and defend it in the process.

Wow, I talk too much don't I?

As for weather issues, i assume i'm qualified to say few things about cold weather (Having served in LR recon exercizes in -30C.

Goretex is good, as long as it works, it may wear out fast in adverse conditions. Main issue is layered clothing (long underwear, sweaters, good outdoors clothes, lots of socks, rain jacket (allso good against wind), Snow suit (camo for winter ops/hunting), good boots ar also a must (have have Viking gtex), a good hat and if you have a shotgun , make sure that your ammo is good to go in sub-zero temperatures (not all are)

If you are looking for a resonably priced, good and durable knife i'd suggest this


As for break down of society, i assume that my country (Finland) will remain intact, since we do have a strong national bond and at the sight of a serious emergency reserves (80% of male population) would be called to arms...
Only situation that this might not work would be total pandemic.. Biggest threath in that situation would be russians fleeing across our border to get a better/safer place to live... and it that situation firepower starts to pay off

[edit on 14-5-2006 by northwolf]

That's a very nice knife there Wolf!

I am truely impressed with the responses made in this thread, I might even print out the best suggestions made so far..excellent stuff!

Very nice knife in the photo. Resonably priced too. And it is not stainless. I personally have two of the Marine K Bar Knives and they are carbon steel but that knife in your pictures has all the requirements. I dont care for a knife with the serrated type blade or even combination straight and serrations. I prefer just plain blade all the way. If I need to cut anything really heavy I use a saw or axe.

Also good on layering up. Yes. I've learned this working in a Dry Dock through the whole of many winters. Layering up is the way to go. I even ride my moped in the dead of the winter...provided it is not too icy/snowy. All the new fabrics are fine...but I usually layer up..even in gloves. For really heavy gloves I have a couple of snowmobile glove sets.

Good post and very nice knife...thanks.
Orangetom

Thats what I am doing...taking notes.

I have insulated coveralls for work in the coldest of days..they are blue and they work fine. I think I am going to switch to the tree bark cammo.

THanks,
Orangetom

First response will be in regards to Smurf's very thorough (but large and weighty) backpack)

Originally posted by enlightened_smurf
I would put together a fairly large backpack that would contain the following :

From my own personal survival backpacking experience, you're talking about a pack weighing anywhere between 150-200 lbs, and having dimensions of roughly 50 cubic feet. Unless you are in military condition, I don't think it'd be reasonable to assume you could go too far with that kind of weight load, even in a good backpack. In my prime of health as an Eagle Scout, an 80 lb backpack was about all I could manage over long distances.

This is the hardest tradeoff, weight/space/utility. When you have to live entirely off of ONLY what you can carry, scavenge, or hunt, your every space and weight decision, vs the utility of what you are bringing, is critical.

I recommend going on several training backpacking excursions with your overall goal being 10 miles through nearby wilderness (nearby being anywhere you can drive on half a tank of gas or less in your most likely vehicle) to acclimate yourself to the local terrain, become familiar with the more obscure natural landmarks and features of your area, and to understand exactly how much weight you're willing to carry and what you'll need.

Before a 2-week 50-mile survival trek in Philmont, New Mexico (an area with zero support in the event you get lost/injured/etc.) we had a year's worth of training campouts, once a month, working up to it.

Let me say this: when travelling with a pack, weight is EVERYTHING. By the end of the first day, you will be eyeing your toilet paper and wondering if you can make due with sticks and leaves instead.

Among the first things to go by the wayside were MREs. They're heavy, usually about a pound per, and they're bulky, taking up about half a cubic foot of space. Instead, they got replaced with instant oat-meal packets, which can replace a week's worth of meals in the weight and space of one MRE. Now, by the end of two weeks, I hated oat meal. I hate it to this day. I can't look at a bowl of oat meal without wanting to throw up. But for two weeks, I lived off 2 lbs of food that fit entirely in a side-pocket of my pack.

Your water will be the next thing to go. Water weighs a little over 8 lbs per gallon. 3-5 gallons of water is going to weigh between 25 and 45 lbs. That's an insane amount of weight to add to your pack, not to mention you never carry water -in- your pack, because you will, without fail, get everything else in your pack wet. Instead, limit yourself to two 1-liter canteens which you clip on your belt, at the hips, to evenly distribute the weight. These are your "travel" canteen and your "emergency" canteen. You travel till you find water. Then you treat the water by boiling it or tablets.

Next is ammo. Keep in mind, you're talking about lead. Ammo is heavy. A box of 100 rounds might weigh as much as or more than your weapon. You don't need that much. You're not going off to war, you're ensuring survival in the event of a brief crisis. If your wanting to stockpile munitions and arms in the event of anything longer, you're better off stashing it away in a waterproof cache somewhere and trying to make your way back to it later. Personally, I can't imagine using more than 2 clips for a pistol if I'm just trying to escape to obscurity except in the case of zombies, which we can hopefully all agree is the least likely of our possible Sitaution X Threats. Same with your rifle. Fill the magazine and have enough to refill it once more. If you get into a prolongued shootout, you're pretty much dead anyway. Personally, survival-wise, I'd only take a .22, -maybe- a box of 36 rounds, and hope to god I never needed to use it for anything other than a quick meal or hasty defense.

If your hunting skills rely entirely on guns, you're screwed in Situation X. You're better off learning how to rig traps, foraging for veg and grub, and fishing. Those are silent methods of obtaining food. If you're shooting at your food every night, guess what can hear and identify those gunshots? Men can. And they'll want your stuff.

Next is rope. Don't buy cheap help or nylon rope, get silk rope. It's the lightest and strongest rope you'll find, IMO. It's also useful for a lot more than you would think. If you wet a silk rope, it's damn near unsnappable. Used with a lever, propeller-style, it's an incredible pry-bar. Last on rope, make sure it's weighted to handle you + 200 lbs (for either your pack or an additional person), as you may have to use it to descend or ascend a steep drop.

I'll try and make a list of what I carried in my pack for soft-survival trips. "Soft" meaning, I got to use a backpack. The hard-survival trips were far worse.

Originally posted by thelibra
First response will be in regards to Smurf's very thorough (but large and weighty) backpack)

Originally posted by enlightened_smurf
I would put together a fairly large backpack that would contain the following :

From my own personal survival backpacking experience, you're talking about a pack weighing anywhere between 150-200 lbs, and having dimensions of roughly 50 cubic feet. Unless you are in military condition, I don't think it'd be reasonable to assume you could go too far with that kind of weight load, even in a good backpack. In my prime of health as an Eagle Scout, an 80 lb backpack was about all I could manage over long distances.

This is the hardest tradeoff, weight/space/utility. When you have to live entirely off of ONLY what you can carry, scavenge, or hunt, your every space and weight decision, vs the utility of what you are bringing, is critical.

I recommend going on several training backpacking excursions with your overall goal being 10 miles through nearby wilderness (nearby being anywhere you can drive on half a tank of gas or less in your most likely vehicle) to acclimate yourself to the local terrain, become familiar with the more obscure natural landmarks and features of your area, and to understand exactly how much weight you're willing to carry and what you'll need.

Before a 2-week 50-mile survival trek in Philmont, New Mexico (an area with zero support in the event you get lost/injured/etc.) we had a year's worth of training campouts, once a month, working up to it.

Let me say this: when travelling with a pack, weight is EVERYTHING. By the end of the first day, you will be eyeing your toilet paper and wondering if you can make due with sticks and leaves instead.

Thanks for pointing that out too me, I wasn't even taking into account the weight, was just listing items i thought were fairly important for a long stay in the wilderness.

Anyways, i have about 3 hours of homework tonight, but if i get some extra time later tonight i will try and create an updated list.

Ideally, for situation X, you have a cache set up somewhere remote, with your kit waiting for you. Hopefully, it'll be secure and out of the way. Your primary concern should be arriving safely. A lot of the supplies listed have near-infinite shelf life (such as rope, or a yurt), so digging a hole and burying them would render them 'secure', for lack of a better method of storage.

This mentioned, if a serious emergency arises, highways can become the worst place for you to be. If it's a long-term emergency over a wide area and a car accident happens, you're stuck. If all the EMS are trying to contain a massive riot, or trying to save folks, they aren't going to have time for a small car wreck. Imagine being stuck in gridlock for a week, with people who didn't pack food.

Bet you wish you packed the shotty now, eh?

This would only conceivably happen in a very large emergency, state or province wide. It becomes especially scary in the pandemic scenario, where EMS is massively overstretched, and people aren't coming to work, etc. The Highway of Death scenario becomes frighteningly real. Are road crews going to come out and clear roads with avian flu stalking about?


DE

I would like northwolf to check and see if there's anything I missed. From his posts, he's had more hardcore camping experience than I have, and in Finland at that! The land of God's Frozen People.

First, the backpack itself. Don't cheap out. Get something with a strong frame and a very well-padded waist-support belt and should-straps. The weight should rest almost entirely on the belt, not the shoulder-straps. It should have room at the top (for your tent), and room at the bottom (for your sleeping bag). The compartments should be divided into two main areas, a large one on top, a smaller one on the bottom, with side and outside zipper or velcro pouches. I prefer zippers, myself. The pack should be made of a durable waterproof material. Ideally, its components should be universal. Each pin or bolt holding the frame together should be the same, the strap-locks should be the same size, etc. This will reduce the size of your backpack repair kit.

This is what I'd carry in my own backpack, limiting it to about 80 lbs max:

Thermal sleeping bag - rated for the winter temperature range of my area. Obviously in Texas, I don't need a polar rated sleeping bag. Strapped at the bottom of the pack for optimal weight distribution.

2-man tent - strapped at the top for optimal weight and to help prevent bending the poles when you inevitably lean against a tree to rest.

Ground tarp - to be laid under the tent. Helps prevent tears, and stops water from being whicked through the tent-floor into your sleeping bag from the ground.

2 different colored mesh sacks - one to hold all food (you hang it from a tree branch at night). The other to hold non-foods temporarily. Never ever ever leave any kind of food (even vac-sealed) in your tent or backpack at night. If you do, after reading this warning, you get what you deserve. Worst case scenario is you die, mauled by a bear. Best case scenario is your tent/backpack is ripped to shreds by little furry bastards with sharp claws.

Plastic film cannisters - great for waterproof, floating storage of small items, and can be color-coded with florescent paints for quick identification and easier finding (because you -will- drop them at some point, at night, and they will roll away, maybe into a river, where they will try to float away). You can also wrap masking tape around each cannister in lieu of bringing an entire roll.

Here's what I use mine for:

• Cannister 1: line the bottom with 4 quarters (or enough change to make 2 pay-phone calls if in another country). Line the inside sides with a short strip of heavy-gauge sandpaper with the sandpaper side facing the inside wall. Fill interior with strike-anywhere matches.
  
  
• Cannister 2: I use another to hold needles (straight and curved), thread (on cardboard bit, not spool, with bit of masking tape around it to prevent tangles), pins (straight and safety), paperclips, and extra nuts/bolts/rings/pins for the frame of the backpack.
  
  
• Cannister 3: Ibuprofen, allergy med of choice, and salt-tablets.
  
  
• Cannister 4: Water purification tablets.

Mess kit - Preferrably Sierra brand (use a cheap one, then a Sierra, and you'll understand why). Kit should be no more than 1-foot in diameter and 6-inches thick. It contains your plate, cup, pot, and flatware.

Sock with powdered sulphur inside - Bat your ankles and lower legs with the sock to powder them with sulphur, twice a day. This will prevent chiggers from making your life a living hell. A ziplock bag makes for easy storage. Store in outside pouch for easy reach.

Small bottle of hydrogen peroxide - Hurts like hell on cuts, but not as much as if you let said cut fester. Also doubles as mouthwash and antiseptic hand-wash.

Camp Suds - This greenish liquid soap-like stuff is biodegradable, non-toxic, cleans skin, hair, teeth, dishes, etc, and only needs a couple of drops to really lather up.

Ace Bandage - Good for sprains/breaks, impromptu padding, etc.

Roll of toilet paper - with the cardboard tube removed, squished flat as possible, store in ziplock bag.

Boy Scout Manual - Even as an adult, still the most useful book ever in the woods, sealed in a ziplock bag.

Hygiene Kit - I prefer the rollup military models, and stock mine with: toothbrush, toothpick, comb, signal mirror (with hole in middle and top), toenail clippers, tweezers, shaving razor, and a small pair of scissors. While these may all seem like luxuries, there are times when it pays to look civilized.

Packed Clothes - (Summer) 2 t-shirts, 1 pair jeans, 3 underwear, 3 pair socks, all sealed in ziplock bags.

100' rope weighted to ~ 400 lbs. - Apparently you can't buy silk rope, at least not that shows up in a search engine. And unfortunatley, I have no idea where mine came from as it was given to me as a gift a long time ago. Maybe it was custom made. That sucks, it was the best rope I ever had. Anyway, a good 13mm spelunking line should do the trick. A company called New England Ropes comes highly recommended.

First Aid Kit - Most first-aid kits you buy at the store will suffice, but a few things you absolutely want with you that may not come standard are: rubber hose and solid metal pin (for tournaquets), a razor blade (for bloodletting), benadryl (for allergic reactions to X), honey packets (for hypoglocemics, and remember to put this in your mesh sack at night), burn cream, duct-tape, baking sodea (for bee stings), chigger-x (for the worst bites). Sutures and such will also be useful.

Hammock and Thermal Blanket - useful emergency shelter/bedding. Also nice for rest and relaxation.

Nylon cord - For miscellaneous tasks.

Wire-Ring Saw - Compacts much more easily than a regular saw. Easy to stretch it out onna stick.

continued...

Tools: - hammer, axe, multitool, spade, knife, whetstone, oil.

2 1-liter canteens - One for travel, the other as reserves. Never put anything but water into your canteen.

Salt, Pepper - Because these two spices can make ALL the difference. Each also has medicinal applications.

Zippo, lighter fluid, spare flints, spare cotton - Don't get an imitation Zippo. The original is guarenteed for life for a reason. Knockoffs are knockoffs for a reason.

Lime Powder - Use in the latrine to avoid poisoning the local water table. Sprinkle a bit in before and after you do a Number Two.

Deck of Cards - To keep from going nuts.

Pack of Cigarettes - Not for smoking, for poisoned bites like spiders. You take all the little tobacco shreddies out of the paper, toss the filter, soak it in water, wrap it in a bandanna, and apply it to the bite. For some reason it deadens the pain and either sucks out or neutralizes the poison.

Work Gloves - A good pair of leatherman's will serve you well in the woods.

4 Bungee Cords - For securing the bedroll and tent to your pack while hiking, or for securing bundles/hammock/cookpots/etc. while camped.

Bandannas - You can never have too many of these 1001-use items.

Food - Instant Oatmeal, Gorp (trail mix), Pemmican (instant meal) bars, are all lightweight good emergency energy rations. Ultimately you will need to identify and procure your own source of food, however.

State and Local Maps and Compass - Might also include a GPS tracker, but don't -rely- on it.

Pair of durable 8+ mile walkie-talkies and batteries - If multiple people are hiking. If not, can forget this. It's a good basecamp/scouting tool.

Portable CB with 15+ mile range. - For emergencies.


I think that's everything...

A few items you could ditch if weight or space were still a problem: ax, walkies, zippo kit, CB, cards, hammer, hammock, rope. I'd keep the rest, if I were you.

Additionally, if you really spend some good money on a spade, it can, in a pinch, double as your axe and hammer.

[edit on 5/16/2006 by thelibra]

Few "tweaks" to the list:
-Ditch the tent, 2m x 2m piece of water proof canvas will do
-powdered sports drink (they help your muscles cope the stress)
-No need for hammer, an axe will do those jobs too
-One good thing to have is a map case
[url=http://www.finn-savotta.fi/index.php?id=142]example[\url]




BTW
This is probably the best rucksack in existence:
[url=http://www.finn-savotta.fi/index.php?id=125]click[\url]



[edit on 16-5-2006 by northwolf]

[edit on 16-5-2006 by northwolf]

Originally posted by northwolf
Few "tweaks" to the list:
-Ditch the tent, 2m x 2m piece of water proof canvas will do
-powdered sports drink (they help your muscles cope the stress)
-No need for hammer, an axe will do those jobs too
-One good thing to have is a map case

Your tweaks all sound solid-groovey except the canvas idea, but that may also be difference in our climates. Texas (and the surrounding areas) house nearly every natural disaster and poisonous human-killing critter North America has to offer. If I can shoulder the extra few pounds, I could survive a lot happier and healthier in a tent. I'm not sure how Finnland is for poisonous critters and extreme rapid-weather-shifting. Texas weather has been known to flip from snow to sun to rain to fog to swarm of locusts to hurricane all in one day. Some semi-solid walls between me and all that makes for a happier Libra...

Originally posted by northwolf
This is probably the best rucksack in existence:
(ed. Savotta LJK Finnish Paratrooper backpack)

Wow... that's a hella nice backpack. I wonder if I can find one on Ebay? They sure don't sell them in America. I've got a lot of respect for Finns. As a Texan, I've got a special place in my heart for people who can thrive in what is technically a wasteland. And though I've never been there, from what I've heard, Finnland is kind of like Syberia with a coastline. I know -nothing- about harsh arctic conditions. Maybe we could trade advice on our respective environments.