How to defend your self, on a budget.

Excellent - thanks for the tips Libra!

You advise against a 30-.06, which was the primary choice I have been looking at. I understand the .22 idea, but have a tendency to enjoy and prefer larger load weapons. A .22 just seems less forgiving than a higher calibre piece. Ideally, I could train and have extremely good aim and be able to use a .22 effectively, but for an alternative with a higher load for greater penetration do you have any suggestions in light of your avoidance of 30-.06?

Sound advice on the losing the scope in favor of the sights. I have used sights on all weapons I've ever had and never used a proper scoped piece. I suppose that is part of the interest for me though, being as I like to challenge myself with new things.

And the sniper type systems are a mere curiousity for me, I'd never want to try and get something like that without a lot of time and equipment training for it, and would see a smaller profile less gadgety rifle much much more practical at any rate. (which IS what I am looking for)

[edit on 11-5-2006 by Violent]

out to 500m any decent hunting rifle will do the job (with a normal hunting optics)
over 500m you need some tweaks to your out of the shop gun (i'm currently planing a nice light sniper from Mosin Nagant m1944)

As for Destruction of Civilization situations i have few ideas based on my experience in LR recon exercises:

1. Make sure you have a good back pack, preferably with external frame (75-95l) You may need to relocate and prehaps stay moving for days/weeks
2. a day pack is a good accesory in case you need to scout out or hunt at times (my backpack has a day pack attached to it)
3. A good knife is essential (not for fighting, but as a tool) my avatar shows mine..
4. if you know how to handle explosives properly you might want to have a 0.5kg and few fuses (it makes fishing in emergency situation really easy and effective)


As for need for water, 3L/day is enough for a fit adult male... for a short while... tried and tested fact. Avoid powdered meals since they require water to cook...

As for attacking an occupying force, hit for Signal units and tankers they will hurt them most, officers are harder to pick out these days

And remember if things get hot all you need to do is march out 90km in 48h and you'll be out of harms way

yes that question was related to QRZ.com. I am a ham radio operator with several kind of sets. I also taught myself to make my own antennas from wire or even copper pipe. Yes some type of communications equipment would be in order. Careful thought and consideration here would be in order as to reliability and functionallity.

Also I agree with Deus Ex's assessment of a dog..the right dog and well trained would be very handy...protective too. Well done Deus Ex...Well done.

As to being prepared...nothing wrong with that ..its just common sense. It is amazing to me how many people never prepare for anything other than tonights TV program. The recent hurricanes around here clearly indicated how many people got caught with little or nothing. Our storms to date are nothing like what they get in Florida or the recent one down in New Orleans. People here were trying to steal other peoples generators...amazing!! It wasnt that bad a storm....knock on wood...its just that some people never prepare for anything....ever.

I have purchased two generators here over the years ...a 4000 watt and later a 7500 watt. I have recently been looking into a device called a inverter..which will convert DC power from a car battery to AC power to runs fans and other equipment. The one I purchased is a 1500 watt capacity. It should be enought to power a refrigerator...which is my main concern for frozen/refrigerated stores.

By the way..if you ever get a generator..also get the equipment to secure it . a chain and lock.

I tend to stock food in quantitys...canned and some dried foods..by the case..if I can ..veggies and such...meats...too..in cans. STews..etc soups. Its just my habit. I rotate them around by dates as I consume them. I learned long ago to be prepared for bad weather to set in here on the East Coast. Usually when the storms come..and you go to the stores the stuff you want is bought out...so stock up ahead by careful thought and use checklists.

I keep two of those Coleman camping cook stoves around. YOU know ..the type you put the white gas in them and pump them up. I got them at a yard sale cheap and refurbished them. I keep several one gallon cans of that liquid white gas on hand. This fuel will disappear quickly at the stores in case of bad weather so I kee it on hand. These stoves put out alot of heat for cooking. Same with the Coleman Lanterns. Two of them.

I buy the AA type batteries by the large box...a 40 pack. I try to keep one to two forty packs on hand. I use them alot at work also in my Mag Lite. Sony walkmans use them alot. Rotate these battery packs ..as the shelf life comes up...and get new packs. Keep the kids out of them...till you are ready to rotate...kids use up alot of batterys without thinking. This is part of a survival stash..not just a convenience..for kids toys and gadgets.

I keep several different types of radios on hand..mostly short wave type...with standard AM/FM but also the short wave bands..including single sideband.
Radio Shack sells a nice little Grundig radio...which can run off of three AA type batteries but also has a chordless telephone type battery in it and a hand crank magneto to charge the batterys. It will run about a hour or so on a good handcrank charge. This is a handy little radio. I have purchased two of them.

Another thing CX....those butane lighters...you see in the stores...by the Five or Ten packs...get some of them and put them away...they have no shelf life...on them. They are extreamly handy. Put away a magnifying glass too..several if you can. Magnifying glass or binoculars will do the same to start a fire if need be. But the lighters are cheap and will store for a long time. No reason not to keep them around.
Believe it or not a sewing kit. Needles ..these are cheap too...thread or string will do in a pinch. YOu want the needles which are large and curved...for multiple uses..not just the small needles for standard sewing but the large curved ones. You may need these curved ones for sutures. People have little idea how quickly clothes wear out/break down..in abnormal conditions. Tools with which to sew is very handy thing to have around..costs little too...right now!!!! Put these away.
Aspirin....too ..very cheap...easy to get right now...just rotate it ..out as the shelf life comes up. Petroleum Jelly ..cheap too.

YOu are looking for books and information on how to build a survival cache. What to put in it. Lots of books on this subject. This is where I learned of the butane lighters. Something most people take for granted and just filter out.

Someone posted that water is a huge problem...they are correct ...this too is covered in some of these books.

Thanks for your post,
Orangetom

Originally posted by Violent
...but for an alternative with a higher load for greater penetration do you have any suggestions in light of your avoidance of 30-.06?

Yes, but it's very pricey.
The Heckler & Koch PSG1 (7.62x51mm) is, IMO, the best a civvy can get.

It's semi-auto, with the second shot arriving less than an inch from the first on a moving target. While weighing a hefty 18 lbs, every ounce of it is beautifully crafted for ease of use, reliability, and functionality (and also has a strap, thank god). It'll shoot under one minute of angle before mods, and is commonly used in counter-terrorism situations because of it's incredible accuracy. However, you're also talking about a $5,000 weapon, so there's the rub. That's a helluva lot of money to me, but really not a lot if it's something you would be using on a regular basis. It'd be invaluable for hunting or fighting Nazis.

Originally posted by northwolf
1. Make sure you have a good back pack, preferably with external frame (75-95l) You may need to relocate and prehaps stay moving for days/weeks
2. a day pack is a good accesory in case you need to scout out or hunt at times (my backpack has a day pack attached to it)
3. A good knife is essential (not for fighting, but as a tool) my avatar shows mine..
4. if you know how to handle explosives properly you might want to have a 0.5kg and few fuses (it makes fishing in emergency situation really easy and effective)

I completely forgot about these crucial items, though personally I'd save the explosives for something like moving a tree trunk out of the road, or alternately, blocking a road.

Originally posted by northwolf
As for attacking an occupying force, hit for Signal units and tankers they will hurt them most, officers are harder to pick out these days

More good advice. I didn't even think about that. Even our own army in Iraq's biggest problem seemed to be getting Fuel from Point A to Point B. Of course, capture of a tanker would probably be optimal, but make for much larger risk.

Originally posted by northwolf
And remember if things get hot all you need to do is march out 90km in 48h and you'll be out of harms way

At my age, I'm lucky if I can march 48km in 90 hrs...

Originally posted by orangetom1999
By the way..if you ever get a generator..also get the equipment to secure it . a chain and lock.

That's something I didn't think of either. Good idea. Maybe even one of those steel cages for it would be a good idea. And if it's converted to biodiesel, you could pretty much have replentished fuel whenever you got enough biomass together to make it.

Originally posted by orangetom1999
I use them alot at work also in my Mag Lite.

Absolutley. Next to Coleman lanterns, Mag Lights are an essential light source. Durable, reliable, and in a pinch, a nice blugeon. My wife didn't understand how I could buy a $30 flashlight when they had some for $1.50, so I bought her a cheap-PoS. Guess who's flashlight worked the moment we needed it?

Originally posted by orangetom1999
Radio Shack sells a nice little Grundig radio...which can run off of three AA type batteries but also has a chordless telephone type battery in it and a hand crank magneto to charge the batterys. It will run about a hour or so on a good handcrank charge. This is a handy little radio. I have purchased two of them.

I want one. I'll go get one this weekend.

Originally posted by orangetom1999
Another thing CX....those butane lighters...you see in the stores...by the Five or Ten packs...get some of them and put them away...they have no shelf life...on them. They are extreamly handy. Put away a magnifying glass too..several if you can. Magnifying glass or binoculars will do the same to start a fire if need be. But the lighters are cheap and will store for a long time. No reason not to keep them around.

Strike-anywhere matches are another good idea. Aside from their obvious use of starting a fire or lighting Coleman products a bit more gently than a lighter, the heads can be cut off and used to create an improvised rocket or explosive, and the sticks can be used as kindling. Girl Scout Juice (aka Lighter Fluid) is also pretty handy for getting fires lit in wet or windy areas, and some various odd jobs like cleaning tar off the hands.

Originally posted by orangetom1999
Believe it or not a sewing kit. Needles ..these are cheap too...thread or string will do in a pinch. YOu want the needles which are large and curved...for multiple uses..not just the small needles for standard sewing but the large curved ones. You may need these curved ones for sutures. People have little idea how quickly clothes wear out/break down..in abnormal conditions. Tools with which to sew is very handy thing to have around..costs little too...right now!!!! Put these away.

Would you believe I can sew better than my wife? Thank you Boy Scouts of America.

Originally posted by orangetom1999
YOu are looking for books and information on how to build a survival cache. What to put in it. Lots of books on this subject. This is where I learned of the butane lighters. Something most people take for granted and just filter out.

The Boy Scout Handbook is an excellent, well-organized, and easy-to read source of information on how to deal with Situation X...the paper it's printed on is also pretty soft, for those who suddenly find themselves in the worst state of unpreparedness.


Bah... this 6000 char limit is really starting to tick me off... more in next post.

Something else I forgot about. Buy a bulk-box of bandanas. Aside from my scout knife, bandanas were the single most-used item in my entire inventory. They have thousands of uses, things that you'd never even consider, but here's just a few things I've used bandanas for over my lifetime:

Head/neck/face cover against sun.

Mask against dust, gnats.

Filtering dirt/bugs/etc from water.

Sling for hurt limbs/Tournaquet/Bandage/Ties for splint.

Kindling/Wind-Guard for fires

Weapon (crude rock flail or sling).

Patches for clothing.

Improvised sock/glove/pads/sunglasses/bag.

Food boiling/steaming.

Rope.

Flags.

Bundling items together for ease of carry.

Padding delicate items for travel.

Anyway, yeah, buy bandanas... lots of 'em.

Good psychology beats hardware every time. This applies equally to home defense and 'end of civilisation' scenarios. Using your brain will save you more time than all the guns and ammo ever made - and the problem with having a gun is that it tends to blind you to smarter options. It also makes you a target...

Originally posted by thelibra
Yes, but it's very pricey.
The Heckler & Koch PSG1 (7.62x51mm) is, IMO, the best a civvy can get.

Thank you! Once I get a new job and start making the proper salary I should be, something like this isn't completely insane. My father still has his M1 Garand and a few others, I might just convince him to take it our with me to the range, good bonding time and I'd like to get some practice in with a rifle.

Originally posted by northwolf
As for attacking an occupying force, hit for Signal units and tankers they will hurt them most, officers are harder to pick out these days

QFT!

I actually saw this on the Survivor Man TV show and thought I'd toss it in because I'd never seen it before. He took a few scraps of canvas\rougher fabric and then set one on fire in a closed in aluminum 'case' (just bend a scrap piece in two over the scraps. The soot from the slow burning fabric coated the other fabric and made a sort of impromptu charcoal that makes getting a fire started a lot easier later on.

yes..good one about the bandanas. I keep one in my back pocket all the time..but never thought of it in that manner. I use them at work for sweat protection on my forehead. Thanks for the update on the bandanas.

To the other posters. I own a M1 Garand. It is a fine rifle though a bit heavy. I prefer my 1903 Springfielf in the same caliber.

I have also purchased a couple of different takedown rifles. A over under shotgun...20 gauge with a .22 caliber rifle on the top barrel.
A .22 caliber take down rifle...which stores in a waterproof stock and floats.
Also a takedown .22 caliber pump rifle/carbine which will shoot long rifles, longs and shorts.
All of thes carefully selected for a purpose in mind.

One more thing for those of you who have watched to many movies...you want to avoid conflict so as not to be much noticed. Lots of wildlife out here ..even in normal times. Dont add to your problems with unecessary conflict.

One more facet...I have taught myself.. How to pick locks. I own a couple of lock picking sets. I have also taught myself to make them if need be. Just another facet of not being tied to conventionalism in thinking. I dont recommend ever trying to shoot a lock open....very dangerous..and foolish. Too much Hollywood amongst many of us. It is not quiet either ..if you need quiet.
If you are intrested in lockpicks and how to use them I suggest a site called

Steve Arnolds Gun Room

They carry all kinds of this type of equipment and the books to learn how to use them. It takes alot of practice but in adverse conditions ..it may be helpful. I have locked myself out of my house and truck several times ...and gotten back in ..no problem here. Some of you probably have experience in how much a locksmith costs to get back in a house or vehicle.


You're on a roll here the Libra...keep up the momentum. Thanks,
Orangetom

Wembly ..is quite correct.

Good psychology is very important. Especially in adverse conditions. Those who do not roll over and give up in adverse conditions stand a much better chance than others.

Well done Wembly ..well done..

Thanks,
Orangetom

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Myself, Starchild, Herr Doktor and a few others went extensively into emergency preparedness awhile back. Take a look. Some people went to extremes, some people did not. Lots of handy advice.

DE

While I recommend avoiding conflict as much as possible it is necessary to have some kind of weapon both as a tool and for protection.

Someone mentioned a good Knife. I agree totally ..also some tool with which to keep the edge. Do your homework here.

As to rifles...someone mentioned the HK PSG1. A very nice weapon but also very very very pricey.

30.06s are fine calibers..and very potent. I own several and reload for them..other calibers too..like .38/.357, 45ACP,.223 et al. Most of you will never have much reason to reload so I recommend what ever you choose ..stock up on ammunition..a generous supply. Not necessarily for shooting or combat..as you want to avoid conflict...if at all possible...but for barter. Begin with .22 long rifles and stock up ..they are very cheap. store them in a waterproof container if you can.

The poster who mentioned the Mosen Nagant rifle. I did not think very highly of these rifles at first..until I observed closely some guys at the local shooting range use them with some surplus ammo. This rifles shoots some nice groups with iron sights at 100 yards. I was impressed. It is not a pretty rifle as modern rifles...go..but no doubt about its effectiveness in capable hands....I was favorably impressed. These rifles are very inexpensive too..a huge plus for them. Once again if you choose this route ..put back plenty of fodder for it. Especially if you are not able to reload.

I have recently purchased a SKS rifle. Just like the Mosen Nagants I did not think much of this rifle at first but at the inexpensive cost.. I decided to purchase one. They seem to be very reliable. I have had no malfunctions from this rifle after 350 rounds. Surplus ammunition for this rifle is very cheap..about $2.80 per box of 20 rounds. I cant reload this cheaply. Check this out against a 30.06 at about $15.00 per 20 rnds.
I have been stocking up on this ammo for this rifle. I eventually plan to purchase another one.
One more thing about this rifle..it is not a large weapon...as is a M1 Garand or a Mosen Nagant. This means it is a weapon a woman can use effectively. Ballistically it is in the power range of a 30.30 rifle. Very managable.
Dont forget a good rifle sling.

Keep it simple here and within budget. Do your homework.

One more thing...along with normal cleaning supplies..for your weapons..knives as well as rifles..I recommend you stock up on a grease which has a silicone base for final coating on your rifles and pistols. Silicone is a water repellent or a moisture barrier. This may be important out in the scrub.
I have used this silicone based grease on black power rifles..and they dont rust..verses regular grease or oils. Some of you may know how corrosive black powder is on metal. Just a suggestion.
Rifles and handguns are made today out of stainless steel. This is fine but you need to know that stainless steel is not pure stainless steel. It contains some cabron steel. It does tend to pit in areas. I own stainless steel handguns and use this grease on them as well.
I dont particularly care for stainless steel as it is light reflective. If I had to use one at night I would try to black it out with a magic marker. The big attrtaction of stainless steel is it is durable in weather. A bit more moneys than regular steel but durable.

Thanks,
Orangetom

If you are out in woods for prolonged periods, remember to clean your guns every 48h or so... this is my personal experience.

and don't forget a good collection of maps and a reliable compass.

and if you plan to use a car, remember that an older diesel car will run with just about any burning liquid with just little tweaks on timing..

Btw best group i've seen, was with a Tak-85 (re-stocked, mosin nagant based sniper rifle) was 12mm from 300m

MOST IMPORTANT take a safety coarse / firearm defense coarse.. There are many firearm defense courses taught today that are invaluable. A person MUST learn to be safe with their firearms and be well trained in HOW AND WHEN TO USE THEM!!!
Target practicing alone will not provide adequate safety or defense techniques.
One needs to develop a safe and effective instinct when using firearms.


[edit on 12-5-2006 by Heckman]

I agree hackman, I want my wife to learn how to handle firearms, I can handle them quite well but she is a bit less skilled and hasn't had much practice and training.

Libra and Orangetom, great posts IMO, very informative.

For a normal home defense gun, i would probably get a mossberg 500. I would probably also add a pistol grip to it and shorten the barrel to provide for greater mobility in tight areas of a house. Also i would probably have a Hi-Point CF-380 .380ACP just as a backup. It's a nice little pistol from what i read that is fairly concealable that doesn't cost an arm and a leg to buy.

For the "situation x" that you guys were planning, I would probably do the following :

I would put together a fairly large backpack that would contain the following :

1) 3-5 gallons of water (which is enough water for about 3.5 - 6.5 days)

2) About 5 MRE's and A few protein bars (this would be enough food for about a week).

3) 10 or so fishing hooks and about 100 feet of fishing wire for fishing (only necessary if you can find a body of water of course)

4) 2-3 extra sets of clothes (preferably vaccuum sealed to save space)

5) A few bandanas (as mentioned by thelibra for many various reasons)

6) A couple hundred water purification tablets for when the stored water is gone (www.amazon.com...=1147529395/sr=8-2/ref=pd_bbs_2/104-8422117-7033566?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=3375251)

7) 2 thermal blankets (may or may not be necessary depending on local climate)

8) A sleeping mat (sleeping on sticks and rocks can denifatenly lower morale , www.ryedale-rambler.co.uk...)

9) A simple cooking pot (Many survival stories have said that people were near a body of water but could not drink the water because it was either salty or unclean, so the pot would be an excellent way to boil out the impurities in water)

10) A stick of magnesium (www.campingsurvival.com...)

11) 5 of the butane lights as suggested by orangetom (cheap and highly effective)

12) a multitool (www.gerbertools.com...)

13) a good nife for both cutting foliage and for personal defense (www.knifeoutlet.com...)

14) A small but potent axe for help setting up a shelter (www.thewarriorsstronghold.com...)

15) A good and reliable compass (www.thewarriorsstronghold.com...)

16) Several maps of an area that you think you will be travelling through

17) A couple of surival guides that explain how to set up a shelter, hunt, etc. (may seem a bit elementary but when you forget stuff out in the middle of nowhere, you will be glad you have these)

18) 2-3 tarps (work exellently when trying to set up a water proof shelter)

19) 100 ft. of rope (again excellent item when setting up a shelter)

20) 100 rounds for a pistol

21) 200-300 rounds for a larger weapon (i.e. 30.06, ak-47, mini 14)
EDIT-
22) Large winter coat with removable liner

23) Medical Supplies (bandages, alcohol, needles / string, etc.)

I personally would choose a Hi-Point CF-380 .380ACP for a pistol, it may not look the prettiest but it is cheap and highly effective.

For a larger weapon though i would have a much harder time choosing, I would probably pick one of the following though :

1) AK-47 (www.thewarriorsstronghold.com...)

2) Mini 14 (www.impactguns.com...)

3) 30.06 (www.impactguns.com...)

4) Mauser (www.impactguns.com...)

5) Mossberg 590 (www.impactguns.com...)

6) Mossberg Cruiser (www.impactguns.com...)

Basically it just depends on what kind of gun you are comfortable with and which one you think would benefit you the most in the most situations.


-Enlightened Smurf


p.s.-feel free to make any comments regarding any of the items that i listed (whether they are good or bad).

Edit - Spelling, added to list

[edit on 13-5-2006 by enlightened_smurf]

THe Mossburg series of shotguns are very reasonably priced and solid firearms. The shotgun is the best all round tool considering the variety of fodder that can be put through one. While I like to shoot rifles mostly , pistols second, my primary house tool is a Ithica model 37 police special with a 20 inch barrel and in 12 gauge.. Loads and ejects from the bottom. Left handers love it. But no doubt the Mossburg is a excellent value for the money. Good Choice. Plus today most shotguns have the screw in chokes...they werent available when I purchased my Ithica. Great feature the screw in chokes.

The rest of your list is pretty good too. I probably wouldnt carry that much ammo but the basics are there.

I am considering what kind of bicycle to get ..not only for riding pleasure..but also for such a scenerio. I own several mopeds and a truck ...but I think in the long run some kind of bicycle with on/off road tires would be better if I had to vacate this location as they are not fuel dependent. I am fascinated by these new suspension features on the new off road type bicycles coming out ..but common sense tells me to get a bicycle with as few moving parts as necessary to keep it rugged and dependable. KISS... "Keep It Simple Stupid." Very Sage words on someone part.

Thanks for your post,
Orangetom

I went into Wally World/Wal Mart last night and was looking for another rain slicker in the camping section. They also have the flashlights located there. I saw something new there that caught my eye. The mini mag lights which I use so often at work....they have these new type LED bulb upgrades for the mini mags. I bought two of them. They seem to be brighter than the original bulbs. The reason it caught my intrest is that it claims extended battery life. I have never used one of these new fangled LED lights..so I will give a status report later.
Perhapses some of you others have more experience with the LEDs than do I and can chime in. Do they really give noticably more battery life. This is my primary concern.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Does anyone have any hard data - as opposed to intuitive feelings - on whether being armed affects one's chance or survival?

Anecdotally, I've been told that those who keep a gun in the house end up being shot more often (in a small percentage of cases with their own gun) because they are more likely to do hazardous things. Likewise I've been advised never to try and tackle a mugger, even if armed.

Anyone got stats in this?

For flashlights i'd take a long look at Underwater Kinetics UK They offer good lights with reasonable prices (in my opinion they beat Maglites 10-0) I've been carrying their smallest 2AAA E-led around for 8 months and it's awesome (20h with 2 AAA batteries)

As for armed/unarmed id try to conceal my weapnry while interacting with other people...

Wow can't believe i forgot about flashlights. I would highly recommend not only a maglite with several extra batteries, but i would also recommend one of the flashlights that you can shake and it will provide light due to magnets passing through the wires. Those are excellent and the bulb is not *supposed* to ever run out, so that would be a very good option. Also, as northwolf said, Underwater Kinetics is a great choice, i have the Sunlight D4 Dive Light and it has done nothing but be one of the best flashlights i have ever owned. Great job northwolf

Edit - Also thought that i would link a semi-related thread -

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Kinda long post but a very informative post as well

[edit on 13-5-2006 by enlightened_smurf]