Feminist or FemiNazi? Truth and Myth

ImaginaryReality1984, yeah, it's good that men are "built stronger", for the ones that are, but how many boys are ridiculed for being not as developed as others. Weight lifting was an issue for women who could sling a bag of feed or a bale of hay yet be denied entry into a traditional male occupation. Let's not confuse side show issues from "either side" with the more meaningful issues like the top of my post...

Why should it be so hard for people to do what they want at this point in history? Feminism, in trying to make a better world for women, only implies a worse world for men, if those men still cling to traditions that don't allow women to be as free. We all should be valued and given dignity. Instead, by denying feminism or participating in the freak show only (feminazi, ex) we have devalued men and women, we have lost self-respect and dignity. Shame on this nation.

I apologise maybe i wasn't clear. People should be able to do whatever they want regardless of sex if they can meet the terms. For example the army is a problem for me. If a women can do everything a man can, then let her in immediately. She can only make the army stronger. On the other hand if she cannot get through courses without dual standards then i don't think she should be allowed in. If men can't do the course they get chucked out and rightfully so.

This is why i bought up the strength thing because women can do certain things better than men and men can do certain things better than women. These are obviously exceptions rather than rules but they are there.

It's a global problem not a single nation either. Certain areas of feminism have become so militant that all men are portrayed as evil sexual predators, standing over women with a large stick. That is what truly annoys me, i am being chastised for having something dangling between my legs, oh and having a penis.


[edit on 29-4-2006 by ImaginaryReality1984]

dessert, re. voting, that was my original point, as the saying goes ''you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink'', voter apathy and ignorance is hardly a feminist issue, even if women engage in it.

as for doing as we wish, well it is a capitalist democratic system, as such we are often valued not by what we wish to do but by what we are willing to do, if you have a better suggestion, trust me there will be a queue forming at your door.

smallpeeps, gimme a break, weather or not a woman is sucsessful in using her vagina as a weopon is irrelivent to it's use as such, a vagina can be used as a weopon and you knew it, as you said yourself, if you knew that what you were saying was crap, why say it? women are no more or less capable of furthering their objectives and attempting to impose their dominance than men, they just use different means.

[edit on 29-4-2006 by pieman]

ImaginaryReality1984, yes, a global problem (yes, look at Islamic fundamentalists for the worst? Oh, sticking neck out on this one, Catholic Church's views on women priests) That is why I truly shed a tear for the lack of leadership from that traditional great beacon of hope, the United States. Until we finish freeing ourselves, we can only offer a poor example to the world. We cannot say, oh but we are better than...No! We have to show the world what it means to be your best, or turn away in shame.

Originally posted by desert
ImaginaryReality1984, yes, a global problem (yes, look at Islamic fundamentalists for the worst? Oh, sticking neck out on this one, Catholic Church's views on women priests) That is why I truly shed a tear for the lack of leadership from that traditional great beacon of hope, the United States. Until we finish freeing ourselves, we can only offer a poor example to the world. We cannot say, oh but we are better than...No! We have to show the world what it means to be your best, or turn away in shame.

hang on a sec, i'm not american, but the US isn't doing that bad a job on that front, the west in general is doing okay, look, again, what more can be done, women progress through the echilons of our socity in proportion to their individual qualities and suitability to the roles they choose to persue.

Originally posted by pieman

Originally posted by smallpeeps
rape: having part or whole of an erection forced into your body.

Ok ok i will calm down here. No a penis isn't the be all and end all, it is far from a magic wand and many men need to learn this. This however does not mean it should be ignored and inserting into someone with there permission, male or female is not rape.

I agree completely.

your contradicting yourself there!!!!

No, I agreed that the penis should not be ignored. Remember I said I have one so why would I want them ignored? I also agreed with his statement that "inserting into someone with there permission" is not rape. That's why I used the word force in my definition above. It's a powerful legal word and it does clarify the definition.

As for those who are offended by the idea that women are raped, I'll provide some data to that effect.

In Liberia, a country that the US created and abandoned, a woman was recently made president. The country is in complete and utter disarray from years of civil war and drug-induced killing. Do you know what her first mission was? To stop rapes which are at an epidemic in her country. That was her first major order. To change the law so that rapers get put in jail.

LIBERIA: No impunity for rapists, vows president-elect

MONROVIA, 5 Dec 2005 (IRIN) - Ellen Johnson-Sirleaf, who will be Africa’s first female president when she takes office in Liberia next month, on Monday promised no rapist would go unpunished during her tenure.

New legislation making rape illegal for the first time in Liberia was passed by parliament on Thursday amid a flurry of rape cases and accusations that have flooded the local media.

“Nobody will abuse our girls and women and get away with it; any law on rape especially the rape bill just passed into law will be totally implemented under our government,” Sirleaf said in a live radio interview.

...Now let me ask you: Is she making this up becase of being a feminazi? Are her suggestions about how to improve her country not valid?

In the US, you'd never have a woman placed in real power. When all the American people are tired of war on their streets and in their country, however, they will probably eventually let a woman rise to power and probably by that time in society, the prohibition against rape will similarly need to be applied in a speech by that president. The US has never experienced anarchy like Liberia, so you we can't relate. ...Yet.


[edit on 29-4-2006 by smallpeeps]

I think the term femnazi can only be applied appropriately to those scant few neo-amazonians who want to exterminate or enslave men to prove some kind of point about compassion and inherent suitability.

Simply campaigning for equality (IMO) can barely be called feminism, nevermind femnazism.

Originally posted by pieman

as for doing as we wish, well it is a capitalist democratic system, as such we are often valued not by what we wish to do but by what we are willing to do

[edit on 29-4-2006 by pieman]

Ah, Pieman, you have entered the world of politics and the economy. We have let politicians tell us everything is ok except for gay marriage, abortions, etc. We have let them cover our heads with bags and not see that everything is not ok. We have heard the speeches but did not notice the drawdown of unions and working conditions for the average working man, nor did we see the looming energy crisis, nor were we allowed to see the true path our elected leader led us down with this elective war. If everyone went to church this Sunday, raised their hand to speak, and asked the pastor to explain why families and our nation are struggling, the real reason, not lesbians not God not lack of patrtiotism, then I think that would be a start. And we don't quit asking. Ask those you voted for, whether you ask in church or not.

desert, i'm not american nor british, the rest of us tried to warn you but all you wanted to do was buy freedom fries, democracy has a poor example in the US, but lets not get sidetracked on this old chestnut. i don't just mean the war either, and for the role of religon in the shaping of opinions, i don't buy it, the pastor will reflect rather than lead if we're honest.

smallpeeps, the placment of a word in a sentance determines it's meaning, to force a penis into a vagina simple implies insertion, it must be forced in to some degree or the lady would find it a dissapointing arragment, to forably incert a penis is a different matter altogether, as i said, wishy washy, i didn't deny rape exhisted, just that you are justifing yourself through word games rather than argument, but i stand to be corrected.

[edit on 29-4-2006 by pieman]

[edit on 29-4-2006 by pieman]

Thankyou, Pieman, for your encouraging words. Sorry 'bout misunderstanding countries. To be honest with you, re women not being held back, women need to work with other women in their field, ignore men who are not inspiring. There are organized groups/associations to help. The work laws are in place, but workers must look for support.

Originally posted by pieman
desert, i'm not american nor british, the rest of us tried to warn you but all you wanted to do was buy freedom fries, democracy has a poor example in the US, but lets not get sidetracked on this old chestnut. i don't just mean the war either, and for the role of religon in the shaping of opinions, i don't buy it, the pastor will reflect rather than lead if we're honest.

Ah, yes. Not the place here for discussion of the chestnut. Please permit a small and final respose on it, though. I gagged when those politicians talked about freedom fries, truly embarrassing, and I did continue to wash down my French fries with French wine. How interesting about the pastor reflecting, a novel idea for many here.

I'm now wondering where the women have disappeared to in this thread. All the discussion for the past few posts has been by men.

And I'm glad that the idea that non-penetrative male rape was somehow not deemed to be upsetting got the trashing it so richly deserved.

Originally posted by pieman
smallpeeps, the placment of a word in a sentance determines it's meaning, to force a penis into a vagina simple implies insertion, it must be forced in to some degree or the lady would find it a dissapointing arragment, to forably incert a penis is a different matter altogether, as i said, wishy washy,

So we're reducing this thread to a semantic discussion of "force" versus "forcably"? Please pieman, I know you are above this from the quality of your other posts.

I don't recall ever having "forced" my male appendage into a female though I have engaged in coitus many times. There might be a moment of arranging for items to fit and what have you, but force is not happening between two parties consenting to mutual sex. If the going's not smooth, something's not right. I do not agree with your assertion that "force" is part of coitus, nor that it is essential for her gratification.

This is key to my point: Nature's way of enabling her to consent to the sex act is systematically being undermined. I am certain you understand my point. People (that is to say humans) know the meanings of the words "force" and "rape". Only lawyers and judges tell these people they don't understand what a word means. Most of these lawyers and judges have never lived a single minute in fear of rape.

Lawyers and judges have destroyed the minds of Americans in a way. They profit from both sides in this so-called gender war. Any war which involves the courts as the battlefield and which requires well paid lawyers to fight it will surely be encouraged by lawyers. Their definitions will be purposefully vague.


[edit on 29-4-2006 by smallpeeps]

Originally posted by rich23
And I'm glad that the idea that non-penetrative male rape was somehow not deemed to be upsetting got the trashing it so richly deserved.

Where was this trashing? I find the idea of applying the term rape to both men and women's apparatus totally bogus.

Even if some foul woman forced Viagra down my throat and jumped onto my sexual apparatus, I would not say I was raped. No matter how unpleasant the event, if there's no insertion into the other person's body, it is not rape IMO. I think my opinion is shared by most rational men who are not lawyers or judges or whiners about their "male rights".

" I would much rather work for a man, than a woman. They're too emotional and backstabbing." "At the very least, they should be given psychiatric Leave from work, once per month, for about 4 days."


First off, I need to say that this is not MY quote, it's from a woman. My wife, to be precise.

I've debated her on this a few times. I feel she is exggagerating. But maybe there is a modicum of truth in this?

DO you think that some women in the workplace, have been fooled into believing that
they have to "act like a man", in order to move forward, climb up the corporate ladder?

To define "act like a man" I mean some ill defined stereotype. Tough, uncaring, non-emotional.

I have no idea how this post will be interpreted. SO, I'll be back later.
I have a project that I am in charge of, this afternoon. Or, to be more accurate
my wife has "suggested" that I build a dog run..LOL

Originally posted by pieman
just because i don't agree with you doesn't mean i don't ''get it''

Agreed. The fact that you don’t agree with me is NOT the reason I say you don’t get it.

past a certain point, equality legislation ammounts to preferental treatment,

I’ll say it again. I’m not talking about legislation. You can’t legislate a state of mind. You can’t legislate respect. You can’t legislate someone to think of and treat another as an equal.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
How many times have you seen a place saying something like "Womens' only yoga"

Why is it that women have started excluding men from their workout and other activities? I'm just going to leave that with you because I know you know the answer.

And men DO, and have historically, had their men only groups. And they excluded women because of status.

Originally posted by godservant
Also, if men were to create a group for our equal rights, we'd be considered chauvinists.

I mentioned the men's movement earlier. It's there and it deals with the more emotional side of men discovering true masculinity. There are all kinds of groups supporting men towards equal rights in divorce and child custody issues.

Men for Equal Rights

AND... whenever anyone feels like I do, we are condemned for having such an opinion.

Welcome to life.

Respect is gone for each other and has been replaced with hate, animosity and constant battling.

I don't know about your life or the women you deal with but that is far from my experience.

Just a few more points... Roles are fine as long as they are freely chosen and not relegated. But then they’re not roles, are they? They’re choices. A ‘role’ is a predetermined function one is required to fill or play out. If a woman chooses to be a homemaker or mother of her own free will and not because it’s expected, then it’s no longer a role.

I wholeheartedly believe that a woman can rape a man. It doesn’t happen often and in my opinion, an adult man is raped even less often than a young man, where the woman does have power over the young man, but it can happen and can have devastating effects.

And I don’t agree at all with the theory that every man is a potential rapist just because he has a penis. That would mean every firearms owner is a potential murderer and I don’t believe that. The presence of the weapon does not indicate the intention or objective of the ‘owner’.

And I’d like to agree with smallpeeps and others who make the distinction between a man using his penis as a weapon and a woman using her vagina as a lure in that most times it is withheld and that withholding is for punishment or coercion. She does not wield it as a threat. And the male addiction to sex is a very valid point, and would likely cause a man to feel that a woman's vagina is a weapon. But it's just the lure. Historically, it's been the only power she had.

It’s difficult for many men to really understand how women have been conditioned to think of (even if only in the dark recesses of our minds) an erect penis as a threatening weapon. But it’s there, guys. Like it or not, believe it or not, it’s there.

And when, on page two, I think, I said, “I love men, I have one of my very own”, I was definitely joking. My husband is secure enough that that wouldn’t bother him at all, and in fact, I think he’d chuckle. He is not mine any more than I am his.

Honorable mention to WyrdeOne and rich23.

I LOVE this discussion. In my opinion, it needs to happen between men. We as women pretty much already get the hang of it. And the reason we started this thread is to dispell certain ideas and I think it's being very productive. Bravo, guys!

Originally posted by spacedoubt
DO you think that some women in the workplace, have been fooled into believing that they have to "act like a man", in order to move forward, climb up the corporate ladder?

Absolutely! Do you really need to ask that, spacedoubt? I didn't think so.

In my opinion, your wife's statement is indicative of an acceptance of male stereotyping in an attempt at comic relief. You know, if you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em. Even making 'fun' of the woman's bodily function has always been a derogatory way for men to put down women.

By saying what she said, and buying into the stereotype, it makes her ‘more like a man’, and many women, including myself, are saddened when we see attitudes like that displayed, especially by women.

The truth is men are emotional, too. Look at this thread! Men backstab, too. Look at any corporation or workplace, look at any situation in life and you’ll see emotional people sticking it to other people.

The comment about menstruation is just sad. My husband says I’m sweeter on my period than most women are the rest of the month. The most I might do is tear up about something. But men have ups and downs, too. But when it’s a man, they just call it stress and admire him for handling it.

The most real situation I can imagine your wife might be experiencing is that a woman boss isn’t likely to let another woman get away with something simply because she’s a woman. A male boss might let his underlings get away with less-than-stellar work simply because he doesn’t hold her to the same high standards as a woman might. Or perhaps because he thinks she’s hot.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I’ll say it again. I’m not talking about legislation. You can’t legislate a state of mind. You can’t legislate respect. You can’t legislate someone to think of and treat another as an equal.

i have no arguement with that, your dead right, but then how can a movement address such issues?

Why is it that women have started excluding men from their workout and other activities? I'm just going to leave that with you because I know you know the answer.

a pre-concieved view of male intentions is my best guess, or perhaps it is because of insecurity or perhaps both, i really don't know. either way, it doesn't matter, a club should be allowed admit anyone on any grounds it wishes, it is a service provided where demands exhists.however, in a totally politically correct sence a club should be allowed to eject a member on the basis of their actions but it should be deemed very sexist to disclude a group based on preconceptions of their possible actions.

It’s difficult for many men to really understand how women have been conditioned to think of (even if only in the dark recesses of our minds) an erect penis as a threatening weapon. But it’s there, guys. Like it or not, believe it or not, it’s there.

yeah, but it is somthing you guy's should be working on, and i know that there is a difference in the way that women will use their vagina, perhaps not as a weapon but as a lure, but in fairness you use a lure to spring a trap and the result is all the one, the quarrie is still consumed in the end.

as for the male addiction to sex, well thats just conditioning, same as barbie dolls, if you really were an equalitarian surely thats just the kind of sexism you would be scourning.

sexism is most incidious when it goes unrealised in the sexist, i suggest you remove the beam in your own eye before you look for the splinter in mine.

smallpeeps, sorry for the simantics, i was trying to illustrate a point regarding definitions of rape, i would still like to open the perameters a little into the general realm of sexual violence as a whole though.

Originally posted by pieman
i have no arguement with that, your dead right, but then how can a movement address such issues?

Education. At all levels. Thought, discussion, denying ignorance... This thread addresses it. This very discussion is educating you and well as me.

As for the rest of your post, some of the things you say so obviously point out that you do not get what feminism is about. And I'm weary of trying to explain it to someone who (it seems) just wants to take 'the other side'. The subject of Feminism is not a debate, it's a movement and it's happening. People who understand it will benefit from it. ALL people. As long as you deny it and look at it as a men vs women thing, you won't get it and you won't benefit from it.

I believe in equal rights for both sexes which is why I find it slightly insulting that feminism is so (almost too) prominent and forthright. For example If you watch an advert on TV about 60-70% of the time it's a woman making fun of a stupid male character. Please pay attention next time you watch adverts, as at least in the UK this is definatey the case. If feminism is for equal rights then why does it fail to realise this aspect of sociey whereby its fine to mock males (selfish ignorance?) I'm interested on peoples opinions on this.