Feminist or FemiNazi? Truth and Myth

I am male and i completely support equal rights, but that is it, they should be equal. Feminists should not pick and choose the bits they want and don't want. You should not be able to have equalizing measures in regards to the army or other activities, if you can't do it then you don't get in is my view. That is equal.

Furthermore the feminist movement is not helped by the extremists. For example the other day i heard some feminist on the radio saying men were obsolete and that once cloning was perfected we should be allowed to die out. This is the problem with feminism, as with other organisations they have extremists within them.

If you want to be equal be equal but don't ask for double standards on assault courses and other rubbish because that isn't equal and isn't fair.

Originally posted by The Parallelogram
how is a man supposed to feel equal, or to respect women, if THAT is the kind of rhetoric we find ourselves faced with every day?

You find yourself 'faced' with my rhetoric? Explain how. To clarify my point: One can observe the male-dominated thinking in society by the drugs that society creates (penis drugs for men), and the direct bodily harm which that society ignores (rape). We are living in a male society.

You want to feel equal with women? I don't feel equal to women, but I don't see myself as being 'less' since I am male. I see my chief job as a male being as safeguarding females in general. That means being informed about their situation. I believe females are the pinnacle of creative beings. Why would I want to be equal with them? I think if a man wanted to be 'equal' with women, he'd go crazy because he cannot. He has no womb and cannot produce babies. Anyway, I don't understand your need stated here. Women are no threat to me individually or en masse. I work well with them and threat them nicely. They treat ME as an equal, which I appreciate.

You want to respect women? What exactly prevents you? I am curious.

Well, I said it wouldn't be a popular opinion. I'm sorry you don't welcome my opinions, as I do yours.

Originally posted by WolfofWar
Women dont serve equally in the military?

I said equally. I am under the impression that women are banned from land combat. Please correct me if I'm wrong. But I assure you, I'm not making stuff up to suit my 'feminist philosophies'.

pure bigoted ignorance. There are absolutely NO women in any position of the judical system? Theres no female justices, or judges, or senators, or congresspeoples? And only men break the law? Theres no female murders or thieves, or rapists, or domestic assualts, or drunk drivers?

Of course I was generalizing. I wasn't saying there are NO female judges, etc. However:

Of the 435 members of the House of Representatives, 67 are women
Source

Women now hold 14 seats in the Senate
Source

It's not even close to equal. We've never had a woman president or vice president.

According to the United States Bureau of Justice, in 2002, in a statistical division of crimes between men and women, related to the crimes of homicide, rape, robbery, and both simple and aggravated assault, they found that 20.2 thousand women were charged and convicted of crimes in 2002, and 25.5 thousand men were convicted of crimes. So that means in 2002 about 45% of the crimes committed that year were by women. Thats almost half.

Do you have a link to this information? Because the United States Bureau of Justice chart I show in my thread says something totally different.

I dont see how a feminist can shoot forequality of all people, if you keep on being ignorant and pointing fingers at men for everything bad in this world.

That's not what I'm doing. I'm simply stating that historically and generally, men have made the rules. We have lived in a patriarchy and I'd like to see that change to a society in which men and women are treated equally and respected for their value.

You misinterpret my generalizations for some kind of bigotry and man-hatred and you could't be further from the truth. This is not an emotional discussion for me. I just want to discuss our thoughts and opinions in a calm, non-agressive way.

Originally posted by smallpeeps


You want to respect women? What exactly prevents you? I am curious.

exactly the kind of crap you posted above

when i am accused of being not only a potential but almost an inevitable rapist, i lose any and all respect i may once have had for the accuser.

You find yourself 'faced' with my rhetoric? Explain how. To clarify my point: One can observe the male-dominated thinking in society by the drugs that society creates (penis drugs for men), and the direct bodily harm which that society ignores (rape). We are living in a male society.

Maybe i am missing something but those drugs were invented because men felt they couldn't satisfy their women. Oh wait i said 'their women' maybe i should have said equal life partners. The amount of times i have heard women refer to men as theirs but the other way around it isn't allowed! In fact many women have praised these drugs because it means they can have sex again. Sex is an integral part of human bonding, go and look it up.

As for the idea that penetration is a male act of dominance, well what else are we supposed to do to propogate the species? If we hadn't had sex then we wouldn't be here. Human biological design involves penetration during sex, are you tryign to say that male dominance forced our biology to be this way?

[edit on 29-4-2006 by ImaginaryReality1984]

Originally posted by The Parallelogram
when i am accused of being not only a potential but almost an inevitable rapist, i lose any and all respect i may once have had for the accuser.

Well, I think this issue is most clearly defined in the area of sex, becuase it's the sex machinery that really colors what men and women are.

I am direct and aggressive in matters of physical coitus. Yes, I am male and I enjoy female bodies quite passionately. BUT, it is always the female who is in control under the sheets. I mention this idea because it really lies at the heart of the matter. Yes, women can fraudulently accuse men of rape, and this causes damage. This never happens to a man who understands women. I couldn't even imagine it happening to me because I made it a point to study women and understand how they are. In the end of this analysis, I found that how they are in a lot of cases is: enslaved and emotionally at risk.

BUT, when you see that the WHOLE of society is controlled by the same device, then doesn't that give you a desire to fight against it? I mean don't you want to fight the fact that women get raped thousands of times each day AND fight the fact that men are held in fear of sex due to false allegations? You are observing real and concrete attacks on other humans and you are conditioned to percieve them as engendering an attack on YOU. It's absurd.

The male/female family-economic-unit knot has been tied so tight that you cannot untie it unless all humans look inside themselves for the answer. The point is, you feel the way you do because you have chosen to feel that way. You can choose to feel differently if you recognize the tricks society plays on you.

The women of the world and their pain, should not cause you to feel attacked, but that is exactly the posture you are assuming. Just like its been planned.



[edit on 29-4-2006 by smallpeeps]

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
Furthermore the feminist movement is not helped by the extremists.

What movement is?

on your post.

I'm not going to respond for now, to what I judge as the over-emotional reactions going on in this thread. I think it's important that we keep our cool, show sources for our claims and express and allow the variety of opinions being expressed here without attack or taking offense. I know it's difficult, but it can be done.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
The amount of times i have heard women refer to men as theirs but the other way around it isn't allowed! In fact many women have praised these drugs because it means they can have sex again. Sex is an integral part of human bonding, go and look it up.

Women can claim ownership of their men because it's a joke. It's not taken seriously. As for women needing a man or a penis for sexual pleasure and intimacy, well, you should talk to more sexually active women and you'll find a different truth. Suffice it to say that I have a penis, and yet I do not think it is the end-all be-all pleasure device for females. A lot of 'impotence' is a myth, and erectile dysfunction is often emotional in nature, IMO. I'm not saying these aren't useful drugs in some ways, but the marketing of them is a clear indication of where the motive lies. That motive is male gratification.

I'll make it a bit plainer: Let us take the % of US males whose wives are non-orgasmic. Do you think a better quality of erection will improve that marriage? I'd say the answer is probably no.

As for the idea that penetration is a male act of dominance, well what else are we supposed to do to propogate the species? If we hadn't had sex then we wouldn't be here. Human biological design involves penetration during sex, are you tryign to say that male dominance forced our biology to be this way?

I don't get what you are saying. Obviously penetration is part of the sex act. Now that we are in a technological society, men and women will have to evolve. Men will have to use different techniques to convince a woman to give them access to their womb. Rape may have been acceptable in the past but not anymore. There is a difference between rape and pleasurable coitus for both partners, but throughout history the quality of the male erection is often determined by the female, who must consent (and kiss, hug, etc) for coitus to take place.

Now, thanks to drugs, she has been removed from that equation. These drugs will improve the male control over females, worldwide. Rape is a very powerful control mechanism.


[edit on 29-4-2006 by smallpeeps]

these platitudinous insults being leveled at my gender are the attack in response to which i am lashing out... it's not a personal thing, but i am getting pretty damn sick of this idea that just because i am a man means i am a violent sexual predator.

your statements above portray the male sexual organs and male psychosexuality as violent, aggressive things, and this bothers me.

are there such men in this world? of course. but it's vast overgeneralizations like yours, and those of radical feminists and chauvanistic males everywhere, that perpetuate the problems behind sexism. whether you're accusing all men of rape or passing on the meme of the subservient housewife, you're doing far more harm than good. alienating men because of their sexuality is one of the 'feminazi''s favorite modi operandi, and it only drives wider the psychological rift between men and women.

biological differences, whether between genders or races, are far too broadly distributed to form the basis for any accurate description of behavior or thought process as applies to all members of a given biological subset. saying that all men are such, or all women, or all mexican people, or all whites, is always going to be an oversimplification. and when one of these gross underestimations of diversity within a biological subset contains something as weighty as an accusation of a rapist mentality, of course i'm going to get upset.

Originally posted by WolfofWar
Men aren't oppressed? I wouldn't say that men aren't oppressed. Granted its not by a big looming force, but the feel of old world more's and social molds are still there ,even for me. Do not discount that.

For example, men can be in a medical field, but are looked down upon, and in many cases, noteven taken seriously, if they are a nurse.

Male Artists,seamsters, fashion designers, and hairstylists are all looked down upon, and instantly labelled gay, and in some cases, meet hostility.

WoW,

You're right, of course, that men are limited by social roles. This is true. But does that signify that men are oppressed? No.

Traditional sex/gender roles create tensions for those who wish to escape them, men and women included. However, These barriers created by sex/gender roles are created and maintained by men for their own benefit.

You may not believe this, but consider these questions about the social barriers encountered due to gender/sex roles.
- Who has developed and maintained these roles?
-Who benefits from them? Whose interests are served?

Consider this: "Can men cry? Yes, in the company of women. If a man cannot cry, it is in the company of men that he cannot cry." - Marilyn Frye

What this quote intends to highlight is that it is generally not women who seek to maintain socially constructed gender roles and stereotypes that ultimately place themselves in a continued position of lesser value and disadvantage.

Originally posted by Open_Minded Skeptic

Men are oppressed (at least in the US, the only place of which I can speak). It is just that the oppression takes different forms than the oppression women suffer. To wit:

It is men who are (in general) expected to fight and die in wars. Men are frequently forced to take part in wars.

If a man should choose to be a homemaker, that man is looked upon as 'less'.

Open_Minded,

The same applies here. Many, many women wish to be able to fight wars and be on an equal footing as men when it comes to armed combat and military service but women are still limited in that context. Women are not maintaining these standards.

Check here:
US Army

You will note is states: "Closed to Women."

Now, I think in many cases this is something most women are happily accepting and most wouldn't want to change it. In my opinion, it's all or nothing - equality or not. Generally the arguments put forth to support keeping women out of combat positions, such as the one I linked to, essentialize women - "She's not strong enough", whether it be mentally or physically, or that having women present would distract men ( I love that one... ), or that women can't kill like men can (traditional roles, again).

I also think you are not considering something here. Look at history. Throughout recorded history women have been seen as lesser than man, weaker and in need of protection. This can be seen in Ancient Greece, where women were not considered citizens to present time. The fact that men still, for the most part, fight all the wars is a reflection of lingering patriarchal beliefs. Is it opression? No. The difficult jobs men have to do (such as infantrymen) and other jobs traditionally in the realm of men are still continually more valued than the jobs women have traditionally done. So while men may be limited by social structures, to say they are oppressed in light of their limitations is, imo, ridiculous. Oppressed and limited to the more valued and honored work of society?

As for a man choosing to be a homemaker.. same thing applies.
These socially constructed norms certainly limit those who wish to deviate from them, but consider that the very occupations men are looked down upon if they enter are the women's work (traditionally) that has been devalued within patriarchy. The negative outlook is not due to women looking down upon these occupations and activities; rather, it seems to me to be because those are the activities tradionally within the realm of women's work, and therefore naturally devalued. Why would a man, who has the world in his hands, choose women's work? That seems to be what people, who look down upon others in their career and lifestyle choices, seem to be implicitly thinking.

Is it oppression? No. Because you're still free to create the normative socially constructed roles that guide both women and men in their daily pursuits.

Originally posted by The Parallelogram
these platitudinous insults being leveled at my gender are the attack in response to which i am lashing out... it's not a personal thing, but i am getting pretty damn sick of this idea that just because i am a man means i am a violent sexual predator.

Why identify with your gender? You have chosen to do that and you have the associated issues thereby. I believe in reincarnation so I've been both male and female, at least that's how I feel.

your statements above portray the male sexual organs and male psychosexuality as violent, aggressive things, and this bothers me.

You've chosen that offense. I have not labelled male organs as violent. The potential for violence exists in an erection (not in the penis) and any women who encounters an erection knows this. If you are not aware of the violent potential in the erect male organ, then you do not understand women.

are there such men in this world? of course. but it's vast overgeneralizations like yours, and those of radical feminists and chauvanistic males everywhere, that perpetuate the problems behind sexism.

Wrong. Your denial of the truth (globally okay? Not just on your street) regarding women and their plight worldwide, are what perpetuate ignorant men getting defensive about their organs. You'd think they were all professional organists.

whether you're accusing all men of rape or passing on the meme of the subservient housewife, you're doing far more harm than good.

It's not a meme, it's real. By dissing it, you indicate your viewpoint. I accept your right to it.

biological differences, whether between genders or races, are far too broadly distributed to form the basis for any accurate description of behavior or thought process as applies to all members of a given biological subset.

Completely false. A sociopathic biped with an erection will act in a determinable way unless the volitional BRAIN curtails that behavior. It is perfectly reasonable to break this question down to its basic parts and analyze it. I'd say your thinking is not atypical and the solution is for the rulers of our society to quit creating uninformed males. But then, since they want women as slaves, why would they make males smarter on the whole? Rape and violence against women serves the agenda of the elites.

saying that all men are such, or all women, or all mexican people, or all whites, is always going to be an oversimplification. and when one of these gross underestimations of diversity within a biological subset contains something as weighty as an accusation of a rapist mentality, of course i'm going to get upset.

Those are skin colors.



[edit on 29-4-2006 by smallpeeps]

Originally posted by smallpeeps


Why identify with your gender? You have chosen to do that and you have the associated issues thereby. I believe in reincarnation so I've been both male and female, at least that's how I feel.

good for you. this isn't about metaphysics.

You've chosen that offense. I have not labelled male organs as violent. The potential for violence exists in an erection (not in the penis) and any women who encounters an erection knows this. If you are not aware of the violent potential in the erect male organ, then you do not understand women.

...you claim not to have labeled male organs as violent, and then you go on to label them violent.

Wrong. Your denial of the truth (globally okay? Not just on your street) regarding women and their plight worldwide, are what perpetuate ignorant men getting defensive about their organs. You'd think they were all professional organists.

i'm getting defensive because on one hand you speak of the "violent potential of the erect male organ" while on the other you go on about how enlightened and special you are, and therefore how you are above such things. how about a little respect for the rest of us non-rapists?

It's not a meme, it's real. By dissing it, you indicate your viewpoint. I accept your right to it.

the meme is the thought process that leads to these acts of injustice against women; it isn't some intrinsic part of maleness, it's an infectious mental process resultant from our society's mores that leads to very unpleasant consequences. you get to that yourself in a second here, but i'll wait while you catch up. with yourself. or whatever.

Completely false. A sociopathic biped with an erection will act in a determinable way unless the volitional BRAIN curtails that behavior.

right. you're not the only one with such a brain. please see above.

Those are skin colors.

very good! go read the part where i said the same problem underlies both sexism and racism, then you'll get it.

[edit on 29-4-2006 by The Parallelogram]

Originally posted by The Parallelogram
...you claim not to have labeled male organs as violent, and then you go on to label them violent.

What I said was that drugs that turn male organs into erect male organs without the female's participation may have a hidden evil side. I believe that marketing of those drugs indicates such. Sorry if I'm not communicating it well enough for you to get it. An erect penis is a tool. A flaccid one is not. Are you now able to understand the difference? Removing the female from the erectile path toward the sex act is dangerous to all of humanity, and particularly females.

i'm getting defensive because on one hand you speak of the "violent potential of the erect male organ" while on the other you go on about how enlightened and special you are, and therefore how you are above such things. how about a little respect for the rest of us non-rapists?

Yes I am elightened and special. Want to know how I know this? Because I have never committed rape and I defend all those who have been raped. I do not minimize their pain and I do not find excuses to explain away the act of rape. Also, I have great physical relationships with women. All men could be enlightened and special in the same way. All they need do is U2U me.

the meme is the thought process that leads to these acts of injustice against women; it isn't some intrinsic part of maleness, it's an infectious mental process resultant from our society's mores that leads to very unpleasant consequences. you get to that yourself in a second here, but i'll wait while you catch up. with yourself. or whatever.

I agree that true things are also memes but let's leave that aside. What I wonder about is your reference to "society's mores". You don't think it's a conspiracy that men struggle to get sexually satisfied in our society? That women are taught to be manipulative of sex?

I don't know how to answer you Parallelogram. I can't see what you are objecting to and I hate these little sequences of replies where users go back and forth. It sounds like you want me to define maleness for you. I would define it as: Caring for females.


[edit on 29-4-2006 by smallpeeps]

ugh, i'm so frustrated with modern feminists, what more do you want,

legally your boss can't discriminate against you, if he is and your being paid less because of it, you have a course of action, if he isn't and your paid less, it's because your worth less, the sames true for men.

there are less women in politics, well it's a democracy, women have half the vote's, could it be that less worthwhile women put themselves forward, personally i'll vote for the person who'll do the best job, same as the women who choose to vote, at every level, from nomination to election, so you want more girls in office, join a political party and put yourself forward on your merits.

then i've heard a few of you putting forward hugely sexist opinions dealing with the ''feninine traits'' of caring and nurturing, as uasual defined from your perspective, caring and nurturing isn't all kisses and cuddles you know, somtimes nurturing is harsh disapline metered with an even hand, somtimes its teaching a kid to release aggression on the sports field where it's constructive, sometimes it's just sitting there and saying *nothing* all while a child pours their heart out and letting them figure it out on their own, somtimes it's working 15 hour days so your family can keep a roof overhead, just because it's different doesn't mean it's lesser, in fact, in case you didn't notice, as these forms of nurturing have been degraded socity has aswell, with almost equal measure, the rise of modern feminism, as opposed to the original sufferajet style, runs a parrel course with a rise in petty crime and general lawlessness.

as far as i can see it's all just selfobsessed whining, patriarcical socity my backside, all i see is women trying to nag socity into giving them preforential treatment instead of getting up and doing somthing constructive like getting on with it and making the difference themselves on their own merit, individually, but then thats a hell of a lot harder than blameing someone else.

Mod Edit: Profanity/Circumvention Of Censors – Please Review This Link.



[edit on 29-4-2006 by DontTreadOnMe]

Pieman...voting...some women still vote for whomever their husband or male pastor says. 15 hour days--a nation that says it has family values and forces this on members to survive is a liar. That is oppression. Yes, nurturing ideally is guidance but not violence. A woman beating her children with a wooden spoon is not nurturing. Sure, nurturing might be saying to a high school senior it's no skin off my teeth if you get an F in Economics and can't graduate. That's reality. I see so many nurturing fathers nowadays, from taking their sons to wrestling tornaments, taking daughters camping, to coaching their daughter in boxing. A patriarchal society will oppress men who don't "fit in". The way I see it, when our society stopped supporting feminism after 1970's, that's when men lost out, too. We all got degraded.

Talking about feminazis?

The very word is totally and utterly absurd. Nazis? They had demon-magic, panzer tanks and Wall Street helping them

The women and girls of the middle eastern, african continents who are "circumsized", killed, devalued, and traded, could surely use Rommell on their side.

A few billion dollars in Swiss gold would at least provide nice vacation-like shelters for wives who get punched in the face a lot by their husbands.

Originally posted by pieman
ugh, i'm so frustrated with modern feminists,

Yeah, I get that.

what more do you want,

If you really want the answer to that, read the thread.

legally your boss can't discriminate against you,

We want it to be more than "legally". We want it to be practical.

as far as i can see it's all just selfobsessed whining, patriarcical socity my backside, all i see is women trying to nag socity into giving them preforential treatment

I'm not really suprised that that's what you see.

This gaining of equality for men and women is a process that is taking many years. Some men (and women) of today aren't going to 'get' it. Some people will just be frustrated and resistant and will resent and blame women for their frustration and probably never in their lifetime understand what feminism is really about.

But some people do get it. And that is the hope for the Feminist movement. Some men and women realize the historical inequity and the steps necessary to have a fully equitable society. It's moving in the right direction for the most part.

Parrhesia -

Very good points, and I concede that most of my examples probably are in fact more in the realm of social limitation than oppression. However, I think that there is another factor here - that oppression is not only between genders. And I'm not sure the expanded discussion is appropriate to this thread, so I'll be brief...

First, I would be nearly the last person to try to refute the point that women have been oppressed for a long time, up to and including this very day.

And I completely agree with you on the "full equality" issue. I'm in favor of full equality in all aspects, including military.

Moving on to the other kinds of oppression, however. The other aspect is that men in society oppress other men in society as well as women. The most obvious example dates back to the Vietnam era, when there was a draft. Many men were drafted and forced to fight in a war, or go to jail or flee the country. That, to my simple mind, is oppression, not social limitation.

Another example: Short people, men and women, get paid less for the same job than taller people (Source). So, if one is to claim that wage difference between men and women constitutes oppression, then I submit that wage difference between tall and short people of the same gender also constitutes oppression.

But I really don't want to belabor this point, especially here. The main point of this thread is to discuss feminism and oppression of women, and on that we agree completely, I believe.

Well, there are many opinions in this thread, some are similar to the way I think - so I guess I will give my opinion.

I think, as a whole, women are now above men. In most homes, the woman is in charge, above the husband. They definately are above men in divorce courts.

One thing eveyone forgets is that we are still animals. Sex appeal from a man towards a woman will ALWAYS be there - ain't no stopping that, ever. For the 'alpha male' in men, letting the woman control everything is not natural.

Also, if men were to create a group for our equal rights, we'd be considered chauvinists.

AND... whenever anyone feels like I do, we are condemned for having such an opinion.

It is my opinion that men and women are NOT equal, but different. We have our own roles which are separate from each others.

Proof lies in todays divorce rates and the way our children are growing up today.

Respect is gone for each other and has been replaced with hate, animosity and constant battling.

Rape

(force (someone) to have sex against their will) "The woman was raped on her way home at night"

Taken from

wordnet.princeton.edu...

So if someone consents to have sex with me (a rarity that) and we have sex then it is rape because i stuck my penis inside her, with her consent! What utter and total rubbish. By calling every man a rapist simply by him having sex is an utterly dispicable thing.

Women can claim ownership of their men because it's a joke. It's not taken seriously. As for women needing a man or a penis for sexual pleasure and intimacy, well, you should talk to more sexually active women and you'll find a different truth. Suffice it to say that I have a penis, and yet I do not think it is the end-all be-all pleasure device for females. A lot of 'impotence' is a myth, and erectile dysfunction is often emotional in nature, IMO. I'm not saying these aren't useful drugs in some ways, but the marketing of them is a clear indication of where the motive lies. That motive is male gratification.

I'll make it a bit plainer: Let us take the % of US males whose wives are non-orgasmic. Do you think a better quality of erection will improve that marriage? I'd say the answer is probably no.

Oh now this is a joke you are twisting my words beyond all recognition. I never said that the penis was the only way i simply stated it is important for the emotional well being of a man and also that many women like a penis! You are demonising the whole thing.

Women can claim ownership of their men because it's a joke. It's not taken seriously.

Well i think my ex girlfriend would disagree there. She attacked another woman when she flirted with me. How about i say it's a joke when i say it that fair? Why not it's a damn equal right! You cannot claim one thing for women and another for a man! As far as i am concerned when i am with someone she is mine and i am hers! You gonna tell me that isn't equal?

You are spouting views at people which often make no sense and are not equal.

I'll make it a bit plainer: Let us take the % of US males whose wives are non-orgasmic. Do you think a better quality of erection will improve that marriage? I'd say the answer is probably no.

You condesending little bleep. Ok ok i will calm down here. No a penis isn't the be all and end all, it is far from a magic wand and many men need to learn this. This however does not mean it should be ignored and inserting into someone with there permission, male or female is not rape.

Now back to equal rights

How many times have you seen a place saying something like "Womens' only yoga" or "Womens' only pole volting", ok the second one is rare i admit. Anyway what if i started my mens' only group? I would have feminists so far down my throat i could taste the leather of dock martins.

[edit on 29-4-2006 by ImaginaryReality1984]