Thermite you tell me

so what sheared this column?


Picture provided by Christopher Bollyn


[edit on 24/4/2006 by Sauron]

I'm not sure what you mean. Do you think thermite was or wasn't responsible? Maybe the column was sheered so that there would be less need for thermite, and make the demo less public.

I don't know what caused that column to shear at that angle, but I can tell you for fact, it wasn't a torch.

I am in precision metal mfg. and have cut beams with acetylene torches before.

I think you mean the column in the middle of the page that is sheared at an angle with molten residue? Looks interesting. I really can't think of anything that would shear a column at an angle like that other than: a) it is a welded off piece (which could acount for the "molten" iron dripping down) or b) It's a thermite reaction which would probably (not an expert) look similar.

Conclusion: Nice find, but unfortunately, I believe it was probably a welded cut.

Originally posted by fm258
I don't know what caused that column to shear at that angle, but I can tell you for fact, it wasn't a torch.

I am in precision metal mfg. and have cut beams with acetylene torches before.

Interesting. So, you're saying that it's not torch cut. So, that leaves that out. Anyone have a picture of a thermite reaction after it has cooled? So we can see if they are similar.

Hmm...I just thought of something. Why would they torch cut something at an angle? Wouldn't it be easier to cut it just like a tree...i.e. straight through?

Another theory, I'm starting to think about, is the reason it's at an angle is so the column could slide off it's center of gravity easier (that is if it's an intentional thermite reaction used for demolition).

My only question though: Why only the one? Is there a broader shot of this area so we can see the adjacent columns and their condition?

Wow. Great find. That definitely is very interesting, most especially the metallic slag around the cut.

Just for future ease of reference in the following discussion, let's call them column A and B:

Another theory, I'm starting to think about, is the reason it's at an angle is so the column could slide off it's center of gravity easier (that is if it's an intentional thermite reaction used for demolition).

Very interesting theory. Makes a lot of sense.

Column B looks like it failed at the splice connection point.

[edit on 2006-4-24 by wecomeinpeace]

Here Is a site describing the cutting technique used in demolition.

Check out this vid

And this one.

IF you get a few dozen people working at night, this looks like the result.

[edit on 24-4-2006 by Rasobasi420]

Is it possible to get a date for these pictures? That would help a lot.

Also, we need to remember that when there was some hope of rescue, a lot of torch-cutting was going on in an effort to clear debris.

It looks like a torch cut to me. Based on the blow lines in the edge, the torch was held at an angle relative to the surface of the column. Probably because the worker was standing some distance away.

Originally posted by fm258
I am in precision metal mfg. and have cut beams with acetylene torches before.

That column looks like it is about 2 inches thick on the sides. What size tip would you recommend for cutting through that?

Would that be the same sized tip if you used propane instead of acetylene? Most demo-scrapers use propane torches.

Having cut quite a few beams myself, It looks like a torch cut to me.
On the left side of the column there is an incomplete cut, which wouldn't have been there if explosives were used.
Looks like they didn't even have to finish the cut before it fell.

Thanks Rasobasi420

From one of those videos posted, you can see there is a fair amount of slag created by heat of the cutting:



And the above is a fairly thin piece of metal. Cutting through those WTC core columns would create a lot more.

Plus you would expect thermite destruction of a column to be a lot messier and not cut so cleanly.


[edit on 2006-4-24 by wecomeinpeace]

WHat about Oxyfuel? It seems that it is able to cut steel fairly quickly.
www.oxyfuel.com...

[edit on 24-4-2006 by Rasobasi420]

Originally posted by Griff
Hmm...I just thought of something. Why would they torch cut something at an angle? Wouldn't it be easier to cut it just like a tree...i.e. straight through?

Maybe but depends on what you cut. A tree you usually cut the angle way (you create a weldge) that you can give it a sure direction of fall. The same can be required when you cut something to clean up. You dont want that the steel bar on top of A would fall on your head?

For me this cut fits to a clean up..also you see that it broke at the top left corner (A).
But of course as well it could make sense to cut such a steel column when doing controlled demolishon. (But the cut looks to clean for me for this.)

The time point of this pic might be interesting. Are this fire fighters (sorry ia m not from the USA)? Were their there on clean up? I dont expcet firefighters to cut this...dunno thought.

Special Filght over the WTC after buildings were down.

Airborne Visible Infrared Imaging Spectrometer (AVIRIS)

AVIRIS received a substantial amount of publicity after it flew environmental characterization missions of the World Trade Center (WTC) area after the September 2001 terrorist attacks. Four missions were flown, during which AVIRIS contributed to the detection of localized concentrations of asbestos in areas where rescue workers had been operating. AVIRIS also allowed analysts to determine the location of over three dozen thermal hot spots in the region where the WTC buildings collapsed. Analysis of the data indicated temperatures greater than 800 degrees F some as high as 1300 degrees F.

[edit on 24-4-2006 by ULTIMA1]

[edit on 24-4-2006 by ULTIMA1]

Which proves that there were fires burning in the rubble. So what?

I think SkepticOverlord is right, Until we know when exactly the pics were taken we can't assume it was pre fall. Even if the pics were taken on that day, they could have been taken after a rescue op.

Originally posted by HowardRoark
Which proves that there were fires burning in the rubble. So what?

What fire burns that hot and under debri, a normal fire is not going to get up to 1300 degrees, and figure all the jet fuel is burned up at this point. Only 1 thing burns that hot and can burn under debri because it creates its own oxygen.

[edit on 24-4-2006 by ULTIMA1]

[edit on 24-4-2006 by ULTIMA1]

We have a precision metal mfg telling us he has cut beams with acetylene torches before.

So no matter what the date turns out to be he thinks this is not a cut by a torch. I think he is correct.

Now if we could just compare a thermite cut with what is presented in this thread.

The heat in the WTC rubble pile was intense enough to melt steel. Not only were pools of molten steel reported being down there, but there's video available online of clean up workers talking about how the rubble is so hot that it's a danger to the steel equipment they're using to try to dig it out. There are also photos online showing brightly-glowing steel being pulled from under Ground Zero.

Hydrocarbon fires don't melt steel, folks. That's been generally accepted as a load ever since 2001, when the idea of molten columns was scrapped.