huge protest over land rights in ontario, caledonia

It's all good, I chose to accept that it was said in the heat of battle over a rather touchy subject. And someone has to root for the “little guy”.
I'm coming from the angle that if they want be be their own nation and to be treated as such, that the logical conclusion is we are now in a state of war.
But thats probably not going to happen, soon it will end and then we'll waste loads of money on a Queens Inquiry as to how the situation could have been avoided, five years from now they'll announce their findings that the government will ignore. Ten years from now we'll be back where we started.
Thats just how it goes.

Check my links, Wikipeida says the Six Natiosn sold the land. Like I said, if they want to play hardball....CR gas. Shock troopers. Import those mean-ass Van Doos. I think this might be the one instance where the natives might be worng in a long, long time.

DE

Originally posted by DeusEx
Check my links, Wikipeida says the Six Natiosn sold the land. Like I said, if they want to play hardball....CR gas. Shock troopers. Import those mean-ass Van Doos. I think this might be the one instance where the natives might be worng in a long, long time.

DE

Deus....perhaps the natives are wrong in their land claim. Perhaps, as the Wikipedia article you cite, the natives "sold" the land. But, on the other hand, Wikipedia is wrong. After all, anyone can compile a Wikipedia entry. Do you think that it was a Six Nations' member who wrote that article? I sort of doubt it.

There are two sides to every story and, after Canada's "stellar" record in their dealings with the indigenous population I have to side with the Six Nations on this one. Face it Deus, Canada has cheated, stolen lands, broken countless treaties and brutalized the native population in Canada for as long as the Europeans have been here. Time after time, the Canadian government has broken their promises to the native peoples of Canada. Why would you believe that this situation is any different?

Look at Ipperwash, for example. The land was expropriated from the native peoples in the region with the promise to return it after the war. What took the Canadian government so long to return it?

When the native people protested at Ipperwash, the O.P.P. opened fire on UNARMED MEN, WOMEN AND CHILDREN! The O.P.P. KILLED Dudley George. Again, Dudley George was UNARMED. Is that what you envision the Canadian Military doing in Caledonia? Oh, excuse me, the Six Nations protesters in Caledonia are armed -- armed with tobacco. The protesters are burning tobacco to protect them from harm. Of course, if the O.P.P. or, as you suggest, the Canadian Military feel threatened by second hand smoke, I would suppose that they would be justified in KILLING even more natives. After all, it would only be another "dead Indian".

Were you aware that there are over one thousand land claims in Canada. The Canadian government has done it's best to reduce this number by relegating the native populations to reservations that have had tainted water, poor, inadequate and inhumane housing, poor or even no access to medical care and decent education.

It would seem that the manner that the Canadian Government has chosen to settle Land Claims is by ignoring the grievances until the natives have no other choice, no other voice, than by protesting. This was the case in Oka, Ipperwash and now Caledonia.

The native peoples of Canada are not going to go away. They have survived a very specific program of assimulation where children were taken away from their parents, forced to give up their language, their customs, their traditions. Still the native peoples persist. Perhaps it's time for the Canadian government to actually talk in "good faith" with the Six Nations and all native groups instead of threatening them with M-16s, tear gas and police force.

news from the Native Perspective

More perspective on the "sale" of the Caledonia land

[edit on 4/22/2006 by benevolent tyrant]

Originally posted by DeusEx
Check my links, Wikipeida says the Six Natiosn sold the land. Like I said, if they want to play hardball....CR gas. Shock troopers. Import those mean-ass Van Doos. I think this might be the one instance where the natives might be worng in a long, long time.

DE

That is not the way to go. The Natives in Canada are the fastest growing ethnic group in Canada right now, if we want to avoid future strife and a possible civil war in the near future we have to settle this here and now. Otherwise, if we continue down this path of oppression, someday, and someday fairly soon, we'll find ourselves outnumbered and on the run.

[edit on 22-4-2006 by sardion2000]

Originally posted by benevolent tyrant
When the native people protested at Ipperwash, the O.P.P. opened fire on UNARMED MEN, WOMEN AND CHILDREN! The O.P.P. KILLED Dudley George. Again, Dudley George was UNARMED. Is that what you envision the Canadian Military doing in Caledonia? Oh, excuse me, the Six Nations protesters in Caledonia are armed -- armed with tobacco. The protesters are burning tobacco to protect them from harm. Of course, if the O.P.P. or, as you suggest, the Canadian Military feel threatened by second hand smoke, I would suppose that they would be justified in KILLING even more natives. After all, it would only be another "dead Indian".

Never in my life have I seen steel-belted tobbaco, my friend. The natives are hardly the saints you are portraying them to be. Neither are they likely as dangerous as I portray them to be. There is not a shadow of a doubt in my mind that weapons of an improvised nature have made their way into the protest lines, with a few firearms at least likely.

You remember Ipperwash, I remember Oka. I remember the SQ sergeant murdered trying to disperse very armed protesters with flashbangs and tear gas. I remember ten RCMP constables hospitalized by so-called peaceful protesters. I remember the Van Doos coming in, and very, very effectively ending the crisis without any further loss of life. I tire of minor land claims exploding into armed standoffs, you know. Here's an idea- instead of creating a blockade that irritates a community and creates quite the dangerous situation, why not protest in Ottawa, or perhaps Toronto? Far leap, eh?

The only thing that letting this miserable situation continue will do is justify turning the nearest stretch of highway into an armed blockade whenever they don't get their way. I'm all for diplomacy, but I'll be damned before the natives turn this into either of the Oka worst case scenarios: flat-out armed rebellion stemming from a military assault gone wrong, or forty or fifty dead natives turned martyr for that same cause.

DE

Sorry guys but I must agree with DE on this one.
The Six Nation wants to be treated as an independent nation, and have carried out a “peaceful” protest by invading a mush larger country. That is not a protest but an act of war.
As for Ipperwash it was leased to the Canadian government for the duration of WW2, but on the heals of that war we had the cold war where we thought that there was going an other large scale war. Once the facility became obsolete the site was heavily contaminated from gas leaks and expended ordinance left about the base. We should have ask the band for its continued use but some times pleasantries are over look when dealing with such menaces.

Have to agree with DE on this also. Benevolent, the protesters weren't just burning tires, they were also equipped with axes, homade clubs and crowbars.

They are also causing problems for the rest of the community, whose business, have no business, schools are closed, and parents have to take time off work. They are disrupting the community to further their own means.

There has always been land disputes, and probably always will be but that doesn't always mean they are right in every claim.

Also the Six Nations Council can be partly reponsible, as they are not always upfront and truthful regarding the deals they make with the provincial and federal governments.

This protest was originally never sanctioned by the Six Nations Council in the first place as they did not agree with the protesters.

The spokeswomen Janie Jamison has stated that they don't follow the rules of Canada or the Province, and that they are their own nation
She believes the Governor General of Canada should negotiate on their behalf. Maybe someone should educate them on the duties of the GC,
she has no jurisdiction here.

Originally posted by alphacenturi
The spokeswomen Janie Jamison has stated that they don't follow the rules of Canada or the Province, and that they are their own nation
She believes the Governor General of Canada should negotiate on their behalf. Maybe someone should educate them on the duties of the GC,
she has no jurisdiction here.

I just glanced at this thread as I had an opportunity to do so. Both Deus and yourself have made posts that I would like to respond to later. Nevertheless, after reading your post, the quoted statement begged a reply. I would also like to add that this is truly off the top of my head. I also questioned why the belief that the Governor General of Canada would be the appropriate negotiator between Canada and the Six Nations. After all, Michaelle Jean, the current Governor General of Canada, has a role that is, essentially, ceremonial in nature. Why would the Six Nations reccomend Michaelle Jean to be the intermediary between these two nations?

I really didn't give it much thought when I realized that the Six Nations are using the Governor General because she does indeed have a role beyond the ceremonial. She is the physical representative of the Queen of England.

The Six Nations have wisely chosen to accent the role of the Governor General of Canada because, in effect, she represents the country with whom the original treaties were made which, subsequently, bound the Dominion of Canada to the adherence of those treaties.

It should be pointed out and noted that Britain and later, the United States approached and negotiated with the Native population as nations just as they would similarly negotiate with a France or a Spain. The Indian Nations were just that NATIONS. England through representatives signed treaties with the Six Nations agreeing upon land rights, in effect, negotiating peaceful accords between NATIONS.

en.wikipedia.org..." target="_blank" class="postlink">The Fort Stanwix Treaty of 1768 is an excellent example of what I am driving at. Britain negotiated land rights with the Six Nations. Specific rules and regulations were agreed upon. These rules and regulations were, of course, expected to be followed by BOTH parties and, for the most part, they were. When the process towards sovereignty began resulting in the Dominion of Canada, Canada adopted the responsibilities and accords that England had made wherin they applied to Canada. Time, time and again, Canada has not lived up to treaties that were their mandate to honor!

One aspect, in particular, pops up all of the time when reading about Native Land Claims. That is, it was required that the government negotiate with each seperate nation. Too frequently, Canada would go through the motions of negotiating and signing treaties with only a few of the nations but they would go ahead and enforce the treaty on all of the nations -- even those who did not agree to the treaty or might not even have had a voice or representative!

This appears to be a contentual aspect in many of the native land claims.

But, getting back to the point, I can't help but feel that the Six Nations are leaning upon history and legal precident when they have suggested that the Governor General lead the negotiations between the Six Nations and Canada. Considering that Britain signed treaties which Canada is bound to adhere to, it is fitting that the representative of the Queen officiate at any talks towards settling the disagreements.

I have to add, as a postscript, that it is really not too difficult to recognize that Canada IS, in effect, dealing with a seperate nation -- actually many seperate nations -- as they face over one thousand land claims across Canada. In this light, recognizing the Six Nations as a sovereign nation, is not a very difficult thing to do nor is it difficult, following this rationale, to see why the Six Nations can say that the Supreme Court of Canada is not binding on people of another nation!

[edit on 4/22/2006 by benevolent tyrant]

BT good point.
But allow me to reiterate that the six nations sold that land back to Canada to build high way six then known as the plank road. When you sell something you lose all rights to say what can or cannot happen on it. I'm not saying that all land claims are in the wrong just this one that through the media I am now somewhat knowledgeable.
If the native population wishes to gain support from us common folk then maybe they should chose their battles more wisely.

BT, let me ask you this. If representatives France or Spain started blockading roads, burning tires, and stealing or vandalizing the private property of Canadians on Candian soil, what would the response of most people be?

If native protesters want to be treated diplomatically like any other nation, maybe they should act like a responsible nation.

Like I said, I fully support a diplomatic resolution once protesters withdraw and use proper channels. Look at the softwood dispute with the united states. Is canada lobbing shells across the border? Perhaps blockading the skyway bridge, or vandalizing the Alaskan pipeline? No.

I fully support the Governor General negotiating. Hell, it's only proper, if a bit obtuse, since we're no longer on British soil. But I feel I msut re-interate that blockades, arson, and armed standoffs are illegal and in a diplomatic context, acts of aggression.

DE

Benevolent, I concede to your post on the topic of the Governor General's role and function of her crown appointment. Although as you stated and I always believed that it is more a symbolic role, thank goodness, not to keen on the fact that a Quebec television celebrity originally from Haiti, could have veto over an elected (by the people) official. Seems like a nice lady but thats another thread.

Anyways just a little more history for those who still believe this land, and many other tracts I would presume, originally belonged to the the six nations. In the Canadian Almanac of 2005 and the Canadian Encyclopedia the term 'Six Nations' gives reference to 'Iroquois'. In the Almanac it is defined as the 'Iroquois Confederation'.

The Canadian Almanac 2005.
Iroquois-
A confederacy of Aboriginal peoples originally living in the northern part of what is now New York State. The tribes originally included the Seneca, Cayuga, Onondaga and Mohawk nations.
The Tuscarora joined in the 18th century.

The Canadian Almanac 2005.
Huron-
A confederacy of Aboriginal Peoples, that lived in the Simcoe County area of Ontario in the 17th century. The tribes consisted of the Arendaronon, Ataronchronon, Attignawantan, Atigeenonghahac, and the Tahontaenrat.
They lived in villages practiced agriculture and because of their central location, they controlled the trade in the region. They had two councils, one for civil matters and the other for war.

Their greatest enemy was the Iroquois, who in 1649 defeated the Huron and scattered them.

www.mnsu.edu...

The remaining Hurons mixed with other tribes and eventually adapted to some or most of their ways. It would seem the "spoils of war" have different meaning today.

To sum it up we have people who were originally from what is now the US claiming land rights in what is now Canada

Anyways, joking aside, I wonder if there are any true descendants of the Huron tribe who have not inter mixed or breeded with other tribes and what their thoughts are on the protest.

The Huron Tribe is not listed as part of the Six Nations.

Originally posted by alphacenturi
Anyways just a little more history for those who still believe this land, and many other tracts I would presume, originally belonged to the the six nations.
.....
To sum it up we have people who were originally from what is now the US claiming land rights in what is now Canada

That's not really a compelling point. It's just like saying that Ojibwe had claims can be trivialized because there are Ojibwe in the Northern United States, too (if that is what is to be inferred from this?). Historically, and it is even reflected some laws still, the Nations of North American Indians traditionally were restricted by no borders but those of Turtle Island. While the Haudenosaunee may have historically been located in Northern New York, it's largely irrelevant when there have been Iroqouis in Canada for several hundred years. They were not originally from the US because they existed before those borders were created - they are originally from Turtle Island, it was The US/Britain who created the distinction of a Canada/US Border AND a New York designation and says nothing of the truth and validity of past and present land claims.

One might also argue that the Huron's greatest enemy was not the Haudenosaunee, but rather the Jesuit's who brought with them disease with caused such destruction that it allowed them to be conquered and absorbed or scattered but that is a separate thread.

dannia, not going to bother quoting you, the part about the US and Canada thing was just for a joke even thought it it is the truth

And the compelling point I was making is the fact that if you want to get technical about it the Iroquois slaughterd and scattered the original occupants of the land (the Huron Indians). Therefore they are claiming land that at one time did not belong to them, except for the spoils of war.

What point don't you understand?

heres sum pics i found i hope u guys like them tell me if they upload right ok if they dont ill try again thanks btw thesse are pics u probably wont see in the news papers an the news
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Former Ontario Premier, David Peterson has been named as a www.thestar.com.../Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1146348609594&call_pageid=968350130169& col=969483202845" target="_blank" class="postlink">negotiator in an effort to bring about a peaceful resolution to the Six Nations standoff at a housing development in Caledonia, Ontario.

Although I hope that the appointment of a high level, provincial, negotiator, I am wondering where is the response from the Federal level of government. If I am not mistaken, municipal and provincial governments do not have jurisdiction where native affairs are concerned. Only the federal government is allowed to genuinely negotiate with the Six Nations.

The Federal government had better "wake up" and smell the roses as well as the ceremonial tobacco. Over the past three hundred years, they have, time and time again, dealt in bad faith with their native allies. Yes, allies! The Six Nations peoples were not conquered as enemies....they were allies. Allied with the British, these native peoples were instrumental in the defense of Canada. They are not the enemy but over the centuries, the British and, subsequently, the Canadian governments have treated them as such.

The Plank Road lands are a case in point. Although the Ontario Supreme Court recently ruled that the land was 'legitemately sold', there is plenty of evidence to prove otherwise. Notwithstanding the fact that this is a case where the lands in question might have been sold -- the sale itself was illegal. At best, the lands could only be leased. When the lands were granted to the Six Nations, it was specified that the land could never be sold -- only leased.

Yes, I will agree that the land might have been sold but those involved in the sale had no right to actually sell the land. Even the original treaties with the Six Nations would show this. It is tantamount to having your brother sell your car. Yes the car was sold but your brother never had the right to sell it. Now you tell me, who owns the car? Before you answer, keep in mind that legally, it would have been understood by the government that the land could not be sold -- only leased.

Where is the justice?

Some violence today... no weapons fire, stand off continues... barracades up again... "outsiders" and media are complicating the issue. Try www.cbc.ca or www.ctv.ca. and others... Live? feed on CBC www.cbc.ca...
I hope these folks work this out to the satisfaction of all... but there is a history.

Fingers-crossed,

Victor K.

[edit on 22-5-2006 by V Kaminski]

Good for the townspeople, there are supposed to be talks going on and the construction has been banned for now. Maybe the protestors should go home now and let the officials work this out.

The townspeople have been disrupted enough, and their businesses have been suffering. Nobody stepped in to help the townspeople even though they have rights too. I'm glad they blocked the protestors from being able to access the land they are protesting about. A few weeks back these same townspeople were refered to as "a mob" by the media, when they finally had enough, of the barricade.

Yes we all know the aboriginals have rights, but so do the people of Caledonia.
The first nations promised to remove the barricade when the talks resumed, and they have not done so. Some of the townfolk were good enough to help and understand their cause, and excercise patience, considering the natives have lied over and over (talks have resumed, barricade still there) I don't blame the people for finally taking a stand.

CBC Radio is reporting that an informational blockade has sprung up in North Battleford Saskatchewan too... can't be long before others start too, maybe as soon as tomorrow... www.cbc.ca... It's four hours or so till darkness in Caledonia. Could be tense... I wonder if Harper will step in and try and save the day? Maybe not. Maybe it'll rain, that might help cool things down...

Fingers-crossed,

Victor K.

[edit on 22-5-2006 by V Kaminski]

www.canada.com...

I warned you. Didn't I warn you all?

You let the boil fester and now the problem's worse than ever. I saw on the news (global toronto) the other night that the Six Nations were funding busses for protesters of all varieties to be shipped in. I watched these people start loading up children on to a schoolbus to go protest.

What the hell?

Who brings four and five year olds to a protest?

The natives are very rapidly losing any credibility they might have had with the childish and dangerous antics.

DE

I'm listening to ckrz.com... and an SOS was sent from the cookhouse behind the barracade over the Net... they want propane, diesel fuel, D cell batteries and coffee and styrofoam cups. The station says that Hydro One is working on the problem... but expects disruption of power across Caledonia? Uh, Houston we have a problem... military choppers in the air too! This is bad and getting worse!

Victor K.