Persecution of Christians ?

The Christians were bad citizens, refusing public employment and avoiding service in the army. And while they claimed toleration for their own creed, they had no toleration for others.

Every god but their own, they openly called a devil, and so long as religion was maintained by the state, and the empire was administered with religious forms, direct insults to gods could not be readily permitted.

Their organization was secret, and their allegiance ambiguous, since they refused to take the customary oaths�

Prof J A Froude, Short Studies: Origen and Celsus

Rest of link...

www.askwhy.co.uk...

I admit a stinging article, would like to hear the thoughts of all concerned.

Its a load of bollocks and easily refutable... Its an articel by a person with an agenda, not an objective dispassionate look at history.

So christians didn't follow the society of their time, good for them, thats what it means to be called a follower of God.

What we forget in our post christian society is that christianity would be as alien and frightening to the members of that society then as it is at present to the Chinese, to the Burmese, to the Arabic countries. Where christians are dying now.


Although the person can provide selected text to support his view, the reality of it is at work in todays world still.

In china recently the leader of the free churches was arrested (again) because of the threat of the movement o China's leadership.

Nothing more than a biased rant,

Well said Netchicken, this guy's scholarship is on the level of Solomon Tulbure. I find it interersting. There are some well respected atheist scholars who publish on the net. Their work is indeed respected by Christian apologists and of course these atheists respect the work done by the Christians. NO ONE AT THIS FORUM has ever quoted them. This is another posting of a web page which criticizes Christianity where the author did not do his homework.

Originally posted by jagdflieger
This is another posting of a web page which criticizes Christianity where the author did not do his homework.

...Unlike a number of us here (Who shall remain nameless ( whistling nonchalantly)) who actually *do* the homework before criticizing a religion...
I particularly like running across the writings of an actual hypocritic-religious scholar's writings who "claim" to have faith (& worked in the Religious Hierarchy) but actually show their true colors & attitudes towards the "faithful flocks"...If their writings haven't been totally faked, I'd be willing to bet that a picture of them would show horns on their heads.

Well MD, when there is money to be made, the wolves will gather. Look how many people end up lawyers. Not all those people are in the field of law for the defense of our civil liberties. So not all people are religious leaders are so for the sevice of God. Also every one of these pages from skeptics sites posted at this forum also is plugging the sale of a book published by the owner of the site. (For example truthbeknown.com plugs the sale of Archary S's books.) This site is no different.

paganizingfaithofyeshua.netfirms.com...

The intent of the above is to supplement to the original article though it�s from a different author.

Any thoughts?

Bible Myths and Parallels In Other Religions by T. W. Doane
Aryan Sun-Myths The Origin of Religion (1899) by Charles Morris
The Paganism In Our Christianity by A. Weigall
Forgery in Christianity by Joseph Wheless, Esq.
Anacalypis by Godrey Higgins Vol I and II
The Mythology of the Aryan Nations by G.W. Cox
The Mystery Religions and Christianity by S. Angus PhD
The Book Your Church Dosen't Want You To Read; Tim C. Leedom Editor
Ancient History of the God Jesus by E. Dujardin
Antiquity Unveiled by J.M. Roberts, Esq.
Apollonius the Nazarene by Raymond Bernard, PhD.
A Short History Of the Bible by Bronson C. Keeler
Christianity Before Christ by John. G. Jackson
Christianity: The Last Great Creation of the Pagan World by Vernal Holley
Isis Unveiled by Helena Blavatsky
Deceptions and Myths of the Bible by Lloyd Graham
Diegesis by Rev. R. Taylor
Gnostic and Historic Christianity by Gerald Massey
Pagan and Christian Creeds by Edward Carpenter
Pagan Christs by J. M. Robertson
Syntagma of the Evidences of the Christian Religion by Rev. R. Taylor
The Devil's Pulpit or Astro-Theological Sermons by Rev. R. Taylor
The Astrological Foundation of the Christ Myth by M. Jabbar
Stellar Theology and Masonic Astronomy by R. H. Brown
The Religions of Mankind, Their Origin and Development by Hans-Joachim Schoeps
Egyptian Belief and Modern Thought by James Bonwick
Lectures on the Origin of Religion by Max Muller
Egyptian Mythology and Egyptian Christianity by Samuel Sharpe
The Dead Sea Scrolls and The Christian Myth by John Allegro
The Egyptian Book of the Dead by Gerald Massey
The Great Myth Of The Sun-Gods by A.By. Kuhn, PhD
The Gospels And The Gospel by G.R.S. Mead
The Historical Jesus And The Mythical Christ by Gerald Massey
The Origin and Evolution of Religion by Albert Churchward
"The Truth About Jesus," lecture by M. Mangasarian
The Woman's Dictionary of Symbols and Sacred Objects by Barbara Walker
The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors by Kersey Graves

On this list of his references, I see Graves, Churchwald, Massey, Walker, Allegro, Massey, Wheless (really), John Jackson. All have been refuted. Some of these guys (Wheless and Graves), even the atheists discount their work (except for ones like Archarya S). Hell I even proved that Wheless generated several mistruths in his work.

Noted that the first links author is not included in your list Jagd.

The site in question is not selling anything the point is the argument presented, which you discount without providing any argument suggestive of supportive evidence???

Jagd to say for instance that Christians demonize other cultures and supported slavery is nothing new. My impression is though, the first link tended to demonize Christians as well. But as stated it did have some good points.

I see 37 books you mention 8 authors

What about the content?

Speaking of the site of course?

Jagd was really looking forward to dissecting these links not responses saying they must be right or wrong because someone say�s so.

In one of our other discussions Jagd you cited a televangelist as recourse and then never
responded to my query in respect to such.

Am I to now conclude that your best response to these links is 2 of the 37 book cited have authors which atheist do not agree with???

For the record the original author of the link is Pastor Craig M. Lyons M.Div.

Any thoughts?

This is nothing but an entire web site advocating the "pagan origins of Christianity" thesis which has been throughly refuted many times. This guy does have a nice web page than Archary S though, but it is the old "Jesus is a sun god" stuff. I even saw a quote from "Mr. Higgins" on one page. (Mr. Higgins was to Kersey Graves what Harvey was to Elwood P. Dowd).

Jagd what is being said here in general is that there is much more to the issues of why Jesus was not accepted as the Messiah by the Jews....

Answer for yourself: Why did Christianity prosper, and why was Jesus of Nazareth believed to be a divine incarnation and Saviour when no such teachings can be found in the Jewish Masoretic Text of the Tanakh?

C.D.F. Moule, in The Birth Of The New Testament, records for us on page 59 that the Greek translation of the Jewish Scriptures is "a wildly inaccurate translation." Likewise, Lucetta Mowry, in The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Early Church, again tells us on page 11-12: "...the Qumran authors....altered the stories of the Pentateuch by pious and frequently fanciful embellishments.

There are literally hundreds of embellishments, but let me give you one such example as I have dealt with hundreds of examples of the corruption of the Jewish Scriptures when then were translated on another website that you might wish to examine to see the evidence for yourself: faithofyeshua.faithweb.com....

There really does seem to be a lot more to this than you are suggesting Jagd and since there is, I am wondering why your responses are so inaccurate with respect to main premise of the text?

Is the old testament in the Holy Bible and that of the Judaic culture in reality so different?


Any thoughts?

Oh, Toltec, I hope you have thick diapers on. You're going to get a good spanking in a moment!

Spanking??? TC what I am curious as to the extent such a divergence is actually real. Have reviewed the sites in question and quite frankly am confused.

Are they different, this in respect to the OT and the Judaic version of the same???????

Judaism cites Jesus is not the Messiah, are you suggesting it is for some reason which you or anyone else can justify as incorrect??????

Please, inquiring minds really want to know???

As far as spankings TC have nothing invested here, I simply want to know if the author of the link is presenting a valid argument.

To be honest, the last thing I want to hear is what has been presented to date in respect to this matter. Simply stated, it sugest the Author is correct and that constitutes a real mess.

Nontheless being objective is important, if such a divergence does exist lets be honest.

Any thoughts?

Because Toltec when I read certain authors as references for a web page, I know I do not
need to proceed any farther. Indeed any author who uses men such as Graves or Wheless
as a source for their information shows flawed scholarship from the start. There is no
need to proceed through the entire web site for a point by point refutation. Currently I
have neither the time from the studies I desire to be doing and an inclination to do a point
by point refutation of a web site which basically advocates what has been proven to be a
totally flawed premise (�pagan origins of Christianity�). I have seen you time and time
again post links to web pages with no other apparent motive than to post something which
bashes Christianity. I have shown many times that the arguments presented by these
postings are flawed and should have been easily refuted by anyone who had even the
slightest bit of knowledge of comparative religions as you claim to have or have the
slightest bit of logic. Indeed I have seen links to web pages which make the most fantastic
statements about Buddhism (linked by you) which anyone who had done the slightest
amount of study would have known to be false. My conclusion is that you would post any
web page with obvious bad scholarship as long as it bashes Christianity. Once I find more
than a few flawed arguments in that web page, I am not even considering the rest. The
entire work of Wheless is useless because Wheless made three known lies in his work.
Scholars do not do this.

As for bias we have a quote from another thread where a poster called me a liar:

It's the intention that determines a troll. You don't see me posting anti-xian threads, do
you? You're not only a hateful sinner, you're also a liar. I'll read anything I want on a
public forum. I'll also post if I feel like it.

The august moderator never made one comment about that post.

Another poster in the same thread posted:

Also and again, this is christian propaganda that only an ignorant or a christian would
believe.

I responded:

Also I much rather be an ignorant Christian than an ignorant atheist as you have proven
yourself to be.

The moderator cautioned me:

There is no reason to call anyone ignorant. The only thing that ***** has ever proven is
that he likes video games.

So its all right to the moderators that an atheist can call me a liar, but when I call out an
atheist for ignorance (which this poster has shown) then that is not all right.

Also Toltec when you cut and paste total pages from another web site, be careful of your
quotes. The quotes from the Bhagavad-Gita at www.digiserve.com which you cobbled
comes from an unauthorized version of the Gita. As that site mangled the quotes from the
Gita. You lose all flow unless you read the Bhagavad-Gita as it is.

www.digiserve.com...

www.digiserve.com...

www.digiserve.com...

www.digiserve.com...

www.digiserve.com...

www.digiserve.com...

www.digiserve.com...

www.digiserve.com...

*********************************************

www.digiserve.com...

www.digiserve.com...

www.digiserve.com...

www.digiserve.com...

www.digiserve.com...

www.digiserve.com...

And this can be the results of shamanism:

www.johnankerberg.org...

www.newadvent.org...

Jagd is still have no response in respect to the difference between Judaism and Christianity?????

Seriously are you sugesting the site in question offers that a difference exsit?????

Jadg to be honest your response in respect to the issues is weak.

Not sugesting you ar a liar but quite frankly

The problem is apparent and obvious beyond any shadow of doubt.

As to why the Vatican is pressured
well let just say you have made that
clear

www.hartford-hwp.com...

www.pavelicpapers.com...

Any thoughts?

[Edited on 15-10-2003 by Toltec]

There is extensive Messianic prophecies in the Old Testament. I far as I know the Old Testament translations used by the Christians is very much like the translations used by the Jews. In fact many current translations of the Christian Old Testament are said to have had Jewish scholars on the translation teams. As to a word for word check of the Jewish versions versus the Christian versions I have not done that. Some where on the web there is a copy of Jewish scriptures and I might check a few key passages. The basic difference is how and what is considered Messianic passages. A lot of the stuff you find at these web sites concerning mistranslated books of the Bible turn out to be hot air.

From a Jewish Bible site:
www.hareidi.org...

Danial 9:23

23
At the beginning of thy supplications a word went forth, and I am come to declare it; for thou art greatly beloved; therefore look into the word, and understand the vision.
24
Seventy weeks are decreed upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sin, and to forgive iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal vision and prophet, and to anoint the most holy place.
25
Know therefore and discern, that from the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem unto one anointed, a prince, shall be seven weeks; and for threescore and two weeks, it shall be built again, with broad place and moat, but in troublous times.
26
And after the threescore and two weeks shall an anointed one be cut off, and be no more; and the people of a prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; but his end shall be with a flood; and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27
And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week; and for half of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease; and upon the wing of detestable things shall be that which causeth appalment; and that until the extermination wholly determined be poured out upon that which causeth appalment.'

From My NIV Bible:

23. As soon as you began to pray, an answer was given, which I have come to tell you, for you are highly esteemed. Therefore, consider the message and understand the vision:
24. "Seventy `sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.
25. "Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven `sevens,' and sixty-two `sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.
26. After the sixty-two `sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.
27. He will confirm a covenant with many for one `seven.' In the middle of the `seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing [of the temple] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. "

Looks pretty much the same to me. Of course I could check the whole Jewish Bible, but Daniel 9:24-9:27 is a key Messianic Prophecy Text (70 Weeks of Daniel).

So provide me with more than the hot air you seem to be suggesting Jagd???

Homeboy, you are getting on my nerves, freak the paranoia give me something more than what you have to date suggested. In other words provide me with facts in respect to what to date you have provided.

All I am asking for Jagd is that you give me your usual is that really something difficult????????????????

What I am asking is that you prove the site is wrong??????

[Edited on 15-10-2003 by Toltec]

Are they different, this in respect to the OT and the Judaic version of the same???????

Judaism cites Jesus is not the Messiah, are you suggesting it is for some reason which you or anyone else can justify as incorrect??????

Any thoughts?

Toltec:
You seem to asked the question is the Jewish version of the Old Testament that much different than the Christian version. The previous post from me listed a key Messianic passage from a English translation of a Jewish version of the Bible (from Jewish Publication Society) and listed the same passages from the NIV which is a standard Christian Bible. As you can see they say essentially the same thing. If you want to determine if there is any difference on other passages then list them. However it would be my guess that there is no essential difference. (If Daniel 9:24-9:27 agree, then there would most likely be agreement elsewhere.)

To be honest Jagd my impresion is you are FOS, this based upon this discussion in general. I will be looking into this very carefully in the future as far as your input
conmen have done better.

First Toltec I am not a cut and paste artist like some of the moderators here who commit plagiairism. First you linked to a site, I listed the references used by the author of that site of which several I know first hand to be useless references. I needed not to continue.

Then you asked the question:

Is the old testament in the Holy Bible and that of the Judaic culture in reality so different?

Are they different, this in respect to the OT and the Judaic version of the same???????

Also I do not see the Vatican being pressured about Nazi gold has anything to do with the post. Your link to hartford-hwp.com/archives

I made one post which compared passages from Daniel from a JPS publication to the NIV. You can read them for yourself to determine how different they are. As far as I am concerned the passages say the same thing. If you have other passages from the Old Testament to compare the Jewish version with the Christian version, then feel free to list them. But based on my initial reading of Daniel 9:24-9:27 from the NIV to the JPS (Jewish Publication Society) I would say that there is no significant difference in the Christian version of the Old Testament when compared to the Jewish version.


Then you posted:

Homeboy, you are getting on my nerves, freak the paranoia give me something more than what you have to date suggested. In other words provide me with facts in respect to what to date you have provided.

Then I posted:

If you want to determine if there is any difference on other passages then list them. However it would be my guess that there is no essential difference. (If Daniel 9:24-9:27 agree, then there would most likely be agreement elsewhere.)

Now Daniel 9:24-9:27 is a hotly debated issue. If there is any place for Christian "monkeying" with the Old Testament it would be in Daniel 9:24-9:27. But I find that the two versions of the Bible (JPS and NIV) give the same meaning.

Then you post:

To be honest Jagd my impresion is you are FOS, this based upon this discussion in general. I will be looking into this very carefully in the future as far as your input
conmen have done better.

Which is you doing nothing more than an inane attempt to insult me when I attempted to answer your question as to whether there was any major difference between the Jewish versions of the Old Testament and the Christian version.