Why Was Jesus Crucified? But Not Stoned?

Hehehe...no worries.

for all of you, in general:
I meant to add that I don't ever intend to attack anyone's religion or beliefs and I greatly admire people of faith. I don't have to share in your beliefs to respect them. I consider the study of history to be very, very different from theology and faith. For me, it's kinda simple: history is about what is in your brain and faith is about what is in your heart. I don't think with my heart or feel with my brain.

All deference to Don but, COME ON PEOPLE! This is the year 2006, and it is quite evident that Religions are "Belief" based systems and have little basis in fact.
I think the real questions is: Why do "Believers" believe what they do???
It has to be the release of the neurochemical enkephalin, when the Choir starts to sing, that make's them believe all this nonsense. If you are going to believe in something then why not go BIG! I mean, why not the Ancient Greek stuff, it was way cool and had lots of neat stuff 8-) Check this out:
The Greek God Prometheus is said to have given mankind "fire stolen from heaven". So angered was Zeus by this act that Prometheus was sentenced to be chained to a mountain while a vulture ate his immortal
liver once every day for thirty years (or 30,000, depending on the
translation) *Damn, even the Greeks had problems remembering # lol*. Thus has the Prince of Darkness always suffered for His act of Revolt. Prometheus is also reputed to have made the first people from clay, taught mankind the use of plants for medicinal purposes, and taught the taming of horses to humanity. He has been said to have ridiculed all the gods, surpassing them in cunning and fraud. He is as often likened to the Devil as Christ in modern mythological references, and may be said to be an inspiration for both.

See, it was Prometheus, not Christ that should have been Crucified......uh..uh....or was it Stoned???? LMAO TommyTrouble

Don,

Dude, man I'm sooooo sorry, if my parents made me go to Church 3 days a week for 18 years.........I'd be in jail for Murder! ........or maybe off for justifiable homicide

At least a Billion books have been written, yet there are soooo many people still wrapped up in the Bible. All these people need to get out more and try and read other stuff and stop being so one dimensional
, don't they know that makes for a dull boring individual???? Anyways, it's too bad I couldn't have read some of this: www.venganza.org... during my Biblical incarceration. I do believe I would have turned out to be a better person for it


TommyTrouble

To me, what this whole thread boils down to is an attempt to confine the spirit of the law to the letter of the law, which is impossible. In fact, I believe it will eventually turn out to be the other way around. The letter of the law will be released from its bondage by the spirit of the law.

Philosophically and esoterically expressed, we are witnessing here the age old seed of promise, seed of bondage conflict that begins in Genesis with the expulsion of Adam and Eve from Eden (you will bruise its head, and it will bruise your heel), continues with Abraham and his two children, Ishmael by the slave girl Hagar (the seed of bondage), and Isaac by his wife Sarah (the seed of promise), and carries on all the way through to the NT where it is expressed by Paul.

2 Corinthians KJV

3:5
Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Everlasting life.

The letter of the law contains the seed of bondage, the spirit of the law contains the seed of promise.

The promise of everlasting life. Salvation by grace through faith. Saved by grace, a work in progress.

Adam and Eve were tempted by the serpent to partake of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of evil, forcing God's hand to expel them from the Garden. Abraham attempted to force God's hand in his desire for a child by having relations with the slave girl Hagar, producing Ishmael. God fulfilled his promise to Abraham with the birth of Isaac to Sarah.

Genesis 21

21:9
And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking.

21:10
Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.

21:11
And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son.

21:12
And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Again we see this referenced by Paul in the NT.

Galatians

4:3
Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

4:4
But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

4:5
To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

4:23
But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

4:24
Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

4:25
For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

4:26
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

4:27
For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

4:28
Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

4:29
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

4:30
Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

4:31
So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

We are not children of the letter of the law but of the spirit thereof.

Amen.

Sorry Don, if I digress, but........Whao, IR, that's some heavy # dude! I guess I have to wonder what it must be like to walk around with that burden all day long (the Religious shackle)? It would wear me out real quick. My views of God are so different than most people, I don't carry all that baggage around with me.

BUT, AND GET THIS: If everyone viewed God and Religion as I do THERE WOULD BE NO MORE WAR, PERIOD. I hate all this Religious Dogma Balogna (or better yet what they make Corn Dogs out of......anyone ever figure out what that stuff is??? lol)

EVERYONE needs to step back and take a DEEP BREATH and really look at what Religion has done to us! And I do mean "DONE TO ALL THE PEOPLE" of this little (out in the middle of nowhere) planet. I guess it will never get any better, not until Iran Nukes Israel anyways and the cleansing starts.
Maybe after all non-Christain Religions are converted or wiped out we can all get along :-(

I for one don't get it and never will, why the hell do we need a God to look over us and have "Made" us????? Isn't it good enough to live your life as a decent person???? I mean if Religion was such a great thing and so very helpful to all that were Religious then the BTK Killer would never have been. I mean, since he was the President of his Congregation and went to Chruch on a regular basis you would think that he wouldn't be such a Wacked out Killer. Then we have Priest's who are Pedophiles, WTF is that all about???? Then we have this Religious Convenient Contrivance again "God gave man a free will but all will be forgiven in the end". Well tell that to the people who were molested or murdered by these "God fearing" people and tell me how Religion is something the human race can't do without?

Religion IMHO was best suited for early man, when they had no idea what drove the weather and what made the stars stay in the sky or made the sun and moon rise and set. Hey, they poor folks were scared $hitless from the day they were born, cause all the God's were so fickle that they had to offer sacrafice's to them so they wouldn't get made and stop the rain or cause the ground to shake or some other nasty stuff to happen. Well we now know what causes the weather and why the Sun rises and sets etc. etc. but we still have to cling (like little children) to this idea that there must be a Creator............DUH! We need to all grow up and understand that the reason a plane crashes or a ferry sinks or an Earthquake or Flood occurs and kills everyone is not because the people must be evil and that was God's will. But, because in the scheme of things "$HIT HAPPENS". Pray in one hand and $hit in the other and see which one gets filled first??? If you are offended by my diatribe, then so be it, since I'm more concerned for the human race than anyone's feelings. You time and effort would be better spent looking at where we (as human beings) are headed, as we turn this planet into a living sewer.

Sorry I would like to chat more but I have to go work on my "Honey Do" list before the little women turns into the devil and smites me good! ;-) I'll be back later and try and save humanity from itself......man I've got alot of work to do......sigh
TommyTrouble

Sorry again Don please don't hate me.

I forgot...........let's all turn to the Book of Genesis and read:

Quotes from Genesis (the Rock Solid book of beginnings……..so I‘m told)

>By the tenth generation, Adam's race had hugely increased. Lacking female company, the angels known as "Sons of God" found wives among the lovely Daughters of Men. The children of their unions would have inherited eternal life from their father, but that God had decreed: "Let not My spirit abide in flesh for ever! Henceforth the years of man are limited to
one hundred and twenty."
These new creatures were giants, known as "the Fallen Ones," whose evil
ways decided God to wipe from the face of the earth all men and women,
with their gigantic corruptors.
The Sons of God were sent down to teach mankind truth and justice; and for three hundred years did indeed teach Cain's son Enoch all the secrets of Heaven and Earth.
Later, however, they lusted after mortal women and defiled themselves by
sexual intercourse. Enoch has recorded not only their divine instructions,
but also their subsequent fall from grace; before the end they were
indiscriminately enjoying virgins, matrons, men, and beasts

Whoa! Looks like the Sons of God decided to have a party . And God being
the stern know all parent type decided to whack their pp’s lol

God declared that they would act no better under the same circumstances
and proposed that some angels be sent to earth to see how well they could resist idolatry, murder, fornication, and wine. No sooner did Harut and Marut, the angels chosen, alight on earth than they were seduced by a beautiful woman.
Then, discovering that there was a witness to their sin, they killed him.
The angels in heaven were then forced to admit that God was indeed right,
whereas the fallen angels faced atonement for their sins either on earth
or in hell.
Harut and Marut chose to be punished on earth and were condemned to hang by their feet in a well in Babylonia until the Day of Judgment.

Ummm I wonder where this well is? Maybe we can go talk to these two
characters and find out why they did that. Oops, can’t find the well, oh
well 8-)

Well, looks like even God has his troubles too, but he knows how to straighten out his subordinates and get things done........what a managment style! Wish I could smite my employee's like that, I bet there wouldn't be anymore "The reason I'm late is....." lame a$$ excuse's lol.

Actually, I'm finding the Bible to be a pretty good read after all. What with all the sin, fornication, beastiality, lusting, drooling, peeping, seduction etc. etc. and here I always thought of Angels as the "Good" guys. Actually it looks like, if the women had not seduced these Angels, we would be alright. Ummmmm.......women the bane of men..........can't live with them can't live without them.........damn! ;-)

And to summarize: I know one thing for absolutely sure..........I want some of what these dudes were smoking! Must have been some damn good $hit!

TommyTrouble

posted by tommytrouble: “Dude, man I'm so sorry . . if my parents made me go to Church 3 days a week for 18 years . . I'd be in jail for Murder! . . or maybe off for justifiable homicide . . “

Curiously, I can still remember not believing the story of Jonah and the whale. Even at 7 or 8, I wondered why did God not just “do it!" to or for Nineveh. Him being God, rather than take this very circuitous route?

“ . . a Billion books have been written, yet there are so many people still wrapped up in the Bible. All these people need to stop being so one dimensional . . don't they know that makes for a dull individual? Anyway, it's too bad I couldn't have read some of this during my Biblical incarceration . . I do believe I would have turned out to be a better person for it . “ [Edited by Don W]

Remember T/T, tomorrow is a new day. If a bible student would look into the secular history of the first church council at Nicea called by Emperor Constantine - but not called by a bishop of Rome of which there may have been several - where the first compilation of what evolved into today’s 66 books of the Holy Bible (KJV) took place around 325 AD, they would be better informed. They would know about the books that were rejected. They would know of the serious argument over the inclusion or exclusion of the book of Revelations. And etc. I think Catholics use 13 additional books in their bibles made official in the 1500s at the Council fo Trent.

I think most fundamental evangelical born agains rely on 2 Timothy 3:16, 17, to support their claim of divine orig. for all 66 books of the KJV bible even though the Jewish people - responsible for the 39 books of the Old Testament - claim inspiration only in the first five books of Moses, the Torah. How’s that for theorligcal arrogance? And 99.44% of those ‘scholars’ cannot read Hebrew or Greek. And none of them have studied the history of Judaism. I’d bet.

People I respect say it is just as legitimate to translate the KJV verse in Timothy “ . all scripture is inspired of God . ” to read “ . all inspired scripture is of God . ” How many lives would that have saved? I’m thinking back when Christians would kill you over misunderstanding scripture - just like modern Muslims get mad over a cartoon? Same-Same.

Don’t forget it was the Christian Crusaders not Muslims who burned the Great Library at Constantinople, which took 3 days or 7 days, depending on who you read. What al loss!



[edit on 4/22/2006 by donwhite]

I guess I have to wonder what it must be like to walk around with that burden all day long (the Religious shackle)? It would wear me out real quick. My views of God are so different than most people, I don't carry all that baggage around with me.

What is a burden to you is a blessing to me, and you obviously failed to understand my post, as it is about freedom.

The shackles are on your mind, and go along with the blinders on your eyes.

Religion is of man, hence it has been perverted to suit the needs of the pecking order you so blatantly attempt to place me at the bottom of.

Once you understand, if you ever do, the intent and the power of the primary partnership with the Creator, you will put aside your feeble attempts to lift yourself up at the expense of others.

I will take my primary partnership with the Creator you claim doesn't exist over your allegiance to random chance (I assume this is what you mean by stuff happens) dictating outcomes any day.

Call it what you may, there is a force over which you have no control that is driving your existence.

Don,

Thanks for that reply, it was refreshing, to say the least

IR

Now you know why my moniker is "TommyTrouble". Hey, you can believe anything you want IR. If you believe God is a "Omnipotent Being" all the power to you my friend, don't let me slow you down. But, I would hope that we can all maintain a dialog no matter how absurd someone may think it is. I'm an Engineer and my brain is wired to find 'Facts" (the truth of things if you will) I have studied Religion with a critical eye and the facts are pretty cut and dry from where I sit. Religion is a "Belief Based" System and I have no quarrel with that. Everyone has a "Soul" and I question no ones Spirituality! But when Religious folks want to push their beliefs into my world, I can't see how that benefits anyone, and I do have a quarrel with that my friend. But, I would just like someone to explain a few things to me (if it is possible to).

If a Mother kills her Children (her flesh and blood) and says "God told me to do it" why do Religious folks question that? If God told her to do that, then who are we to question her actions? Maybe her Children were going to grow up and become mass murder's......how would we know? If God did not tell her to kill her children, then who did? The Devil? If the Devil did then why didn't God stop him? Or was it just a matter of she was insane? If it's the latter, then couldn't we make the logical leap to "all people who hear or believe in God are insane?" Just asking a question not making a statement.

Anyway, from a purely logic standpoint I find these questions and hundreds of others very vexing. Now from a purely Religious standpoint I could possibly understand some of these questions but even then.......if there is a God (Omnipotent Being) what is He/She/It doing...just watching as she slaughters her children..........not a God I really want to know real well...sorry IR. And Please, Please, Please, don't give me that well worn Convenient Contrivance about how God gave us all "Free Will" ..........what, so He/She/It could sit back with a big box of Popcorn and watch the carnage?

I think most folks would like my God much better, if I may be so bold
TommyTrouble

Dear IR,

Ah contraire mon amie, but me thinks it is you that have these afflictions

Let me expound my friend: Look real close at yourself in a mirror......what do you see? .........................You! what else?? LMAO.

Seriously though........Check out these subjects and see if you can see God?
Realitivity.........Quantum Mechanics.........Theoretical physics...... particle physics....... quantum field theory.............. superstring theory.........The Klein Bottle...... Multidimensional Space and Time...........The Very Fabric of the Universe.............matter from the interdimensional foam of the vacuum of space......... how do these things relate to God? Well, you may find that ALL matter is made up of vibrating strings of matter and that their frequency of vibration determines what matter they are. So.......from this we may conjecture.....that these strings are being played by the hand of God as he plays the Universal Overture.....the sweet sound of everything

Not to worry IR. If I saw you broken down on the side of the road I'd stop and help you........no matter your beliefs

TommyTrouble

I am an applied mathematician and I see the hand of God in everything, everywhere. God is a master mathematician, in addition to His infinite attributes, and he has a function, solution, and equality for every facet of every moment that ever has or ever will exist.

Again, you confuse religion with God, and the fact that some people are just plain crazy, demonized, and can't discern God's intent from the cacophony that surrounds them, whatever they attribute their actions to. A God of Creation, of peace, love, and understanding, doesn't prevent suffering, He uses it to bring salvation to stubborn, stiff-necked people like you and me.

Do you confuse science with nature? Religion is the study of God just as science is the study of Nature. Science brought us atomic weapons and the ability to destroy ourselves completely. Do you blame Nature for that? Do you blame Nature for having the potential to provide us with atomic weapons through our scientific discoveries? Hardly.

When your bombastic empiricism finally fails you, as I know it will, as it always does, and you are faced with the unexplainable , inexplicable reality of the true nature of God which is completely beyond your or anyone else's comprehension, and must be taken on faith, then your spiritual journey in this life will truly begin. It would be my humble pleasure to meet you at any point under any circumstances along that way.

Dear IR,

Here....Here......in some way I kinda envy you and in some way sympathize and yet other ways, you have my sympathy (like it or not lol)

But don't despair for me, for I have made my peace with my God and am one with the Universe as I see it. In the end we all end up in the same place, whether we want to or not (dirt nap) lol.

But, until then, I raise my glass to you sir and drink to our long lives and good fortune ;-) and thank God for: www.ianchadwick.com...

Ummm...God is a Mathematician? Ahh man! I wish I would have known that......I would have prayed more during my first Calculus class

TommyTrouble

Tequila isn't going to help you figure out what happens to the miraculous electrical impulse created when your father's sperm penetrated your mother's egg, and your life began, after you take your long dirt nap. It might help put you in a frame of mind to start thinking it over, though, if you drink enough of a quality version.

Do you think your "life force" remains cohesive as some kind of quark or photon when you lie down for that long dirt nap, or does it just dissipate like a crackle of static electricity, lost forever, returned to the great whatever?

Perhaps you will think it over over your next few sips of your favorite agave distillate. Perhaps you already have, and have come to your own conclusions. I respect that, and have no judgment to render.

Peace. Out.

quote: Joseph of Arimathea was imprisoned for many years for his interference with Jesus' burial. Joseph powerful friends did a lot of work and bribery to get Jesus's body released to him.

**************
This could be true, but again, I don’t recall it appearing in any of the 27 books of the New Testament. But this story is like the first part mentioned above. It is contrary to what we do know about Romans and crucifixions. So again, we’re into legend or myth which in the case of Christianity, we charitably call “tradition.”

***************

I didn't get the info from the Bible. I saw it 2 weeks ago on the National Geographic Channel. They ran a whole series on Jesus' crucifixion, resurrection, etc. But maybe you don't think Nat'l Geo is a reputable source? Why do you keep refuting information when it doesn't fit in to your view? You don't appear to be keeping an open mind, to me.

posted by forestlady

from quote: Joseph of Arimathea was imprisoned for many years for his interference with Jesus' burial. Joseph powerful friends did a lot of work and bribery to get Jesus's body released to him.

Donwhite This could be true, but again, I don’t recall it appearing in any of the 27 books of the New Testament. But this story is like the first part mentioned above. It is contrary to what we do know about Romans and crucifixions. So again, we’re into legend or myth which in the case of Christianity, we charitably call “tradition.”

forestlady: I didn't get the info from the Bible. I saw it 2 weeks ago on the National Geographic Channel. They ran a whole series on Jesus' crucifixion, resurrection, etc. But maybe you don't think Natal Geo is a reputable source? Why do you keep refuting information when it doesn't fit in to your view? You don't appear to be keeping an open mind, to me.

This story is not new. It is a Catholic tradition. Catholics give tradition equal standing as Holy Scripture. Protestants don’t. Problem with tradition from the Protestant’s POV is traditions have changed over the years and seem to be updated to suit the needs of the times, or that new traditions are conveniently discovered, which tends to denigrate tradition as a reliable source. Protestants think “Tradition is time conditioned.”

The National Geographic is a non-profit that depends on acceptance by a whole lot of people. Since 90% of Americans are Christian, and 1/3rd of them are Catholics, why make your “base” unhappy? Especially when the shows are presented in the Christian’s Highest Holy Days. Believe half of what you see and nothing of what you hear.

[edit on 4/29/2006 by donwhite]

Originally posted by donwhite

The National Geographic is a non-profit that depends on acceptance by a whole lot of people. Since 90% of Americans are Christian, and 1/3rd of them are Catholics, why make your “base” unhappy? Especially when the shows are presented in the Christian’s Highest Holy Days. Believe half of what you see and nothing of what you hear.
[edit on 4/29/2006 by donwhite]

I don't think I can agree on that. National Geo also ran a program on what happened to Jesus' body after being taken down from the cross. They conluded that his friends stole his body out of the tomb, rather than being resurrected. I was really stunned to see that they ran it that way, as I thought it would offend alot of Christians.

posted by forestlady

posted by donwhite: “The National Geographic is a non-profit . . why make your “base” unhappy? [Edited by Don W]

I don't think I agree on that. National Geo also ran a program on what happened to Jesus' body after being taken down from the cross. They concluded his friends stole his body out of the tomb, rather than being resurrected. I was stunned to see that they ran it that way, as I thought it would offend a lot of Christians. [Edited by Don W]

Me too. Well, it is blatantly obvious I did not see the NG show. I made assumptions, and I made comments based on those assumptions. There is nothing worse for a pontificator than to be shown his pontification is just plainly, false. I’ll try to do better next time. Thank you for being kind enough not to mention that.

Originally posted by donwhite
Since 90% of Americans are Christian, and 1/3rd of them are Catholics, why make your “base” unhappy?[edit on 4/29/2006 by donwhite]

90% of America may say they are christian but that is certainly not the case. Born again christians(meaning those who have placed their faith in Christ's sacrifice for the remission of sins) is much much lower.

posted by dbrandt

90% of America may say they are Christian but that is certainly not the case. Born again Christians (meaning those who have placed their faith in Christ's sacrifice for the remission of sins) is much much lower.

Well, I think the Holy Writ says God will do the final judging. That’s why I say, “If God made me, I’m not worried.” Catholics will admit God is the judge but they claim to have the only tickets to get you into the judgment proceedings. I think "Born Agains" number about 15% of the US population. They are often referred to as “evangelicals.” Sometimes referred to as “pentecostals” although all those terms are more generic than specific. In any case, they seem to love mixing religion and politics. Very uncharacteristic for traditional Protestants.

Originally posted by donwhite

posted by dbrandt

90% of America may say they are Christian but that is certainly not the case. Born again Christians (meaning those who have placed their faith in Christ's sacrifice for the remission of sins) is much much lower.

Well, I think the Holy Writ says God will do the final judging. . I think "Born Agains" number about 15% of the US population. They are often referred to as “evangelicals.”

You are right God will do the final judging, and..........
John.3
[1] There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
[2] The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
[3] Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.