Why Was Jesus Crucified? But Not Stoned?

I don’t mean to burst anyone’s bubble. This is the season of the central theme of Christianity. The Resurrection. Which I regret to remind, is all about the individual’s salvation. A somewhat selfish motivation. But, because it is that season, it brings to my mind lingering questions.

Some things in the Bible are surely beyond belief, at least to people in 2006. The most unlikely story, to me, is that of the possessed man, Legion. It is found in all three Synoptic Gospels, but I refer you to Mark, Chapter 5. Mark is generally acknowledged to be the first of the 4 gospels to be written - 55 to 60 CE - and Mark was copied nearly verbatim into both Matthew and Luke.

I do not know who put the books of the Bible in the order we have today. The first collection of the Holy books we call the Holy Bible was an early 4th century project ordered by Emperor Constantine. Orthodoxy was his middle name. Constantine wanted 50 copies made and would put one in each of the 50 churches he built (or remodeled) in his newly renamed capital, Constantinople.

Unfortunately for historians, all 50 copies have been lost in antiquity, as well as any listing of just which books were in those Bibles. It was, by the by, almost certain that the Book of Revelations was not in that very first edition of the Bible. I say that because the contract for the 50 copies was already let before the issue of what to do about Revelations was decided.

The swine story. One day, on the shores of the Sea of Galilee, Jesus encountered a man possessed with demons. The man asked Jesus for help in ridding him of a multitude of demons, which Jesus consented to do. Jesus removed the demons from Legion and put them into a nearby herd of swine, grazing in a field. Then, without further explanation, the herd of swine ran themselves over a bluff - a cliff - and fell into the Sea and drowned. Ipso facto, the demons are gone! Legion is a free man.

The ancient and fearful concept of demonology was laid to rest by reason and scientific method as employed by Sigmund Freud (1856-1939) but I admit, it dies slowly. By the late 1890s, Carl Jung, Freud’s contemporary, had added breadth if not depth to Freud’s psychoanalytical theories. Many others have followed behind Freud until today modern psychology is taught in every school in the western world. No serious person in 2006 entertains any longer the notion of demon possession. But I digress.

I hold to the position the story of the demonized pigs is apocryphal. I don’t think anyone living in the First Century would have thought it was literal. Everyone who heard the story then knew and understood what it meant and the implications contained in the story. Literalism did not mature as religious dogma until well into the second millennia. I also suggest the fact that it was a herd of pigs is of significance and embodies some meaning “hidden” from me, a Gentile Protestant. Two strikes! I do not have a theory on that. Half in jest, I do ask today’s literalists why born again Christian psychiatrists do not stock pigs in their offices. Or do they?

Jesus was crucified yesterday, for some convoluted reasoning it came to be called “Good Friday.” According to an Old Testament prophecy (Hebrew Bible), the savior of Israel would rise from the dead on the 3rd day. That Sunday is the 2nd day has never slowed true believers. Technicalities don’t count when you’re painting the big picture.

Judea, part of what was later called Palestine, was under Roman rule. The issue of life and death was under Roman jurisdiction. Exclusively. This problem has also vexed later story tellers who needed to have the Jewish high priest issue the death sentence on Jesus to fulfill prophecy. The solution? Jewish leaders alleged Jesus was a potential threat to the Roman ruler, and on that basis, the Romans performed the crucifixion on Jesus. It’s as if the Romans were tricked by the Jewish leaders. Hmm? The Romans sentenced most minor miscreants to 20 years on the oars of a Roman galley. Romans did not waste good, cheap labor.

Lastly. Why did the Jewish high priest fear Jesus so much? Or, why did the Romans fear him? Recapitulate. Jesus had summarized his teachings in the Sermon on the Mount. Surely there was nothing in that pronouncement that merited the death sentence? In another place, Jesus said there were just 2, not 10, commandments that really counted, day to day. 1) Love God and 2) love your neighbor. What is treasonous about this? Where is the seditious speech? Even hard core atheists would just ignore Jesus. None of this would arouse the public officials - Roman or Jewish - to the point of murder. So here is another gap that calls out for an explanation. But for which there is none offered.

I offer. In 167 BCE, a high priest of Israel, Mattathias, started a revolt against the ruling Selucids. He fled into the wilderness, and after his death, his son, Judas Maccabaeus, continued the revolt which ended in about 162 BCE. One of the more notable acts performed by Judas M. was the cleansing of the Temple in Jerusalem. This revolt is celebrated today by Jewish persons in the Hanukkah Festival.

The Roman occupation of Judea was uneasy. Fiercely religious, the Judeans resisted every act of the Romans and hated the Jewish collaborators, most especially the High Priest. Indeed, one band of resistors was known as the Zealots. One of their number became a member of Jesus’ inner circle. The Zealots were best known for murdering Jewish collaborators much as the insurgents are doing today in Iraq.

I contend that the “feeding” of the 3,000 or 5,000 in the desert nearby to Jerusalem, was instead a fuzzy memory or disguised reference on the writer’s part of the time when Jesus made his grand move to liberate the land of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

A small army - a reinforced brigade today - lying in wait just outside the Jerusalem city gates at feast time, to be called into action when the commando raid on the Temple was successful. Jesus and a small band of 10 or 12 infiltrated the Temple grounds, and on Jesus signal - the overturing of the money changers tables - were to capture the Temple.

On this success, the rebel army would rush into Jerusalem, overpower the Romans, and rejoice in the fulfillment of various Old Testament prophecies. Unfortunately for Jesus, (but fortunately for the billions of followers to come later), the Temple Guards proved too robust for Jesus’ small band. Defeated at the Temple, Jesus fled to a rendevous known to us today as the Garden of Gethsemane. He waited for his band to regroup. Judas, who it turned out, had been a paid Roman informant, gave away the failed plot and the Romans captured Jesus and others. This was indeed a crucifying offense!

Last. Simon bar Kochva led yet another Jewish revolt. In 132 CE and running for 3 years. Simon was at first highly successful and was regarded by many of the Jewish inhabitants of Judea - by then known as Palestine and Jerusalem had been renamed Capitolina - as the long promised Messiah. The bar Kochva revolt is usually described as the Second Jewish Revolt. It is sometimes called the Third Revolt, when the riots of 115-117 CE are called the Second Revolt.

Those earlier disturbances did not reach the level of the bar Kochva revolt. In this instance, money was actually minted bearing Simon’s image. For the first year or two, many Jews hailed Simon bar Kochva as the TRUE messiah. There is however, no mention of Jesus in any of the surviving writings.

So this is my take.

[edit on 4/15/2006 by donwhite]

Crucifixtion is usually reserved for rebels against the state, like spartacus' band.

I don't know about the connection between the feeding the massses and the overturning of the tables as being a garbled raid on the temple, but I agree that the general idea was probably that jesus was dangerous to the roman state. You don't flay, beat, abuse, then publically humiliate and tortuously execute mere theives or pacifists.

Originally posted by donwhite
... the savior of Israel would rise from the dead on the 3rd day. That Sunday is the 2nd day has never slowed true believers. [edit on 4/15/2006 by donwhite]

Not that this matters much, but in Judaism, Sunday at sunset would have been the 3rd day.
Now if they celebrate Sunday morning, then this could be debatable...but I really dont see this as an issue within itself.

So they crucified him supposedly right before Shabbat (friday evening), and if I recall had to get him off quick so not to break the Shabbat. (Its been awhile, I should watch ben hur again...wait its on tonight

But in this light, if they crucified him and he died before Shabbat. (Friday, not Friday evening, then even Sunday morning would have been the 3rd day, as again the day starts at sunset for Jews, and these are Jews) So in theory he dies at the end of the day for a Jew on Friday (day 1), then is buried before (day 2) Friday evening), he rest on Shabbat, and on Saturday night is day (3), but he rises at the end of day 3 on Sunday morning. There....heheh

anyway...Interesting theories...I dont think anyone knows. "Jesus" is an inspiration to many, and has been used by many for their purposes. Again, anyones guess about "Jesus" is pretty much as good as the next.

Gods Peace

dalen

[edit on 15-4-2006 by dAlen]

Originally posted by donwhite
Some things in the Bible are surely beyond belief, at least to people in 2006. The most unlikely story, to me, is that of the possessed man, Legion.

The story. One day, on the shores of the Sea of Galilee, Jesus encountered a man possessed with demons. The man asked Jesus for help in ridding him of a multitude of demons, which Jesus consented to do. Jesus removed the demons from Legion and put them into a nearby herd of swine, grazing in a field. Then, without further explanation, the herd of swine run themselves over a bluff - a cliff - and fall into the Sea and drown. Ipso facto, the demons are gone! Legion is a free man.

The ancient and fearful concept of demonology was laid to rest by Sigmund Freud (1856-1939) but it does die slowly. By the late 1890s, Carl Jung, Freud’s contemporary, had added breadth if not depth to Freud’s psychoanalytical theories. Many others have followed behind Freud until today modern psychology is taught in every school in the western world. No serious person entertains any longer the notion of demon possession. But I digress.

There are rabbis/kabbalist who are discussing quantum physics to help explain stuff such as the existence of angels & demons. It all is about perspective anyway and how we interpret things. (some of these kabbalist, if not all that Im aware of, use Carl Jung with the teachings also.)

Its not something I can simply summarize, as a lot are theories, though well put theories, none the less Im waiting for things to be revealed as practical. So saying that I am not offering a summary beyond what is already stated in the paragraph above and to say that if we are all connected, it would be interested to see how energy can flow and perhaps "possess" someone. (After all angels/demons are described as energy.) So science may back this up after all.

Gods peace

dalen

posted by dAlen

posted by donwhite: “ . . the savior of Israel would rise from the dead on the 3rd day. That Sunday is the 2nd day has never slowed true believers.

Not that this matters much, but in Judaism, Sunday at sunset would have been the 3rd day.

OK, so if Jesus died on Friday in the PM, but was taken down from the cross before sundown Friday. I count to Saturday PM as 1 day, and to Sunday PM as 2 days.(Which we did not get to.) Monday PM would be 3 days as I count. Run that counting by me again, dAlen, please.

Now if they celebrate Sunday morning, then this could be debatable . . but I really don’t see this as an issue within itself.

I believe it was early Sunday AM. In one Gospel, it is still dark but in the others, it is at first light. You are right, it is not a primo issue. It is mostly what we call ‘nit-picking.”

So they crucified him supposedly right before Shabbat (Friday evening), and if I recall had to get him off quick so not to break the Shabbat.

That’s all well and good but I cannot see the Romans being in the slightest bit concerned over the Shabbat or over any Jewish custom. Un uh. Congeniality or even collegiality was not what the Romans were noted for.

“I should watch Ben Hur again . . it is on tonight . . if they crucified him and he died before Shabbat.

Are you saying Jesus was really crucified on Thursday, Protestant style?

Friday, not Friday evening, then even Sunday morning would have been the 3rd day, as again the day starts at sunset for Jews, and these are Jews So in theory he dies at the end of the day for a Jew on Friday (day 1), then is buried before (day 2) Friday evening), he rest on Shabbat, and on Saturday night is day (3), but he rises at the end of day 3 on Sunday morning. There....heh heh anyway...

Uh, would you mind repeating that?

Interesting theories...I don’t think anyone knows. "Jesus" is an inspiration to many, and has been used by many for their purposes. Again, anyone’s guess about "Jesus" is pretty much as good as the next. Gods Peace [Edited by Don W]

Look, in the Protestant bible, Jesus was crucified on Friday. He was resurrected on Sunday. That is not 3 days. That is 2 days. But thanks for you efforts, dAlen

They were Jews before Christians. Sorry, it is as it is. Not trying to prove anything at all, and you are right it is nit-picking.

But as for the days. I will attempt one more time.

He had to die before the Shabbat and be buried. (Which means all this took place before Friday evening)

1) On Friday which is day 1 he died and was buried) so he died on the 2nd half of the Jewish day
2) Friday night which is Jewish day 2 he is resting (beginning of the Jewish day)
3) Saturday night which is Jeiwsh day 3 he is still resting
4) Sunday morning Jewish day 3 part 2 he rises

Of course I may have overlooked something...and as I said, no one really knows whats up.
Everyone has used "Jesus" for all kind of money making purposes, and other personal benefits.

Gods Peace don

dalen

posted by dAlen

There are rabbis kabbalist [Eng. cabal?] who are discussing quantum physics to help explain stuff such as the existence of angels & demons. It all is about perspective anyway and how we interpret things. Some of these kabbalist [Eng. cabal?], if not all that I’m aware of, use Carl Jung with the teachings also.

Its not something I can [easily] summarize, as a lot are theories, though well put theories, none the less I’m waiting for things to be revealed as practical. So saying that I am not offering a summary beyond what is already stated in the paragraph above and to say that if we are all connected, it would be interesting to see how energy can flow and perhaps "possess" someone. After all angels demons are described as energy. So science may back this up after all. Gods peace
[Edited by Don W]

It seems to me dAlen, you are mixing Eastern and Western philosophy. Many years ago, I did a very small amount of study into Eastern thought, but I found it entirely unrewarding for me. Which in no way makes it any less legitimate. It just seems Eastern though requires more commitment than I am willing to give. I’m too pragmatic. I’m of English, Protestant, humanist, rationalistic descent. Winston Churchill and Franklin Roosevelt are my personal icons. I cannot help this. My sister says I have ADD. As they say, you can choose your friends, but you cannot choose your relatives.

[edit on 4/15/2006 by donwhite]

don,

I'm curious as to your sources for your opening post to this thread. Where can I find historical records of the time that detail the actions of Jesus you describe?

In my single(simple?)-mindedness, I got the impression that turning over the money changers tables in the temple was what ended up getting Him crucified. I had no idea He was trying to take over the temple and start a revolt. The whole incident seems to run counter to His non-violent, peace-loving nature.

I even went so far in my own mind as to speculate the temple was being used to sell the same thing I speculate John the Baptist laced his 'water' with: opium.

"Unless a man be born again of the water and the spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven."

Present this book of ideas www.amazon.com... ?v=glance&n=283155 to the Abrahamic religions and see if you arent Jesusized.

Jesusized:
Rejected
Called a Heretic
Rediculed
Killed
Abandoned
Judged/Condemned
Laughed at

Originally posted by magnito_student
Present this book of ideas www.amazon.com... ?v=glance&n=283155 to the Abrahamic religions and see if you arent Jesusized.

nice to chat about what the link is about, vs. just putting a link up...what is it about?

Gods Peace

dalen

I thought that crucification was the preferred way that the church chose to portray the death of Jesus because it gave more meaning to the martyr image, but also it was reserved for thief and enemies of the state.

While stoning was more for prostitutes and what was considerate the lowest of the lowest in the society at the time.

Originally posted by dAlen

Originally posted by magnito_student
Present this book of ideas www.amazon.com... ?v=glance&n=283155 to the Abrahamic religions and see if you arent Jesusized.

nice to chat about what the link is about, vs. just putting a link up...what is it about?

Gods Peace

dalen

The Book Talks about how much of our belief systems are hand me downs from generations past and that there is a possibility you are God and God is you. When I say this, I speak of that divine part of you that knows, the part of you that which God created. That there really is no good or evil, just experience that brings you even closer to the creator regardless of what our limited labels we place on things such as "Its good, its bad, etc. That we all operate from either 2 positions One is Love and the other is Fear.

The book also talks about how words can be misinterpreted and that God is much more than words and the relm of experiencing God in a real way now is possible..not later when the body dies. God is possible to experience NOW, not when the individual meets certain rules and regulations..Ie, bowing so many times to the east, using Jesus as some kind of activational gate code word, ohh,,if Im a good person and do this I will get to meet God, The santa claus God prayers etc.. (please give me)

posted by marg6043: “I thought that crucifixion was the preferred way that the church chose to portray the death of Jesus because it gave more meaning to the martyr image, but also it was reserved for (1) thief and enemies of the state. While stoning was more for (2) prostitutes and what was considered the (3) lowest of the lowest in the society at the time. [Edited by Don W]

I don’t know when the sign of the fish was replaced by the sign of the cross as an emblem of Christianity. That it did is not in doubt. Note that American "born again" are displaying the sign of the fish on cars, and etc.

(1) Roman justice included flogging - flagellation - for minor offenses, and sentencing to man the oars of Roman galleys for serious offences. Usually for 20 years. And not one man in 50 survived. It was equal to a death sentence but like the forced labor of the past, the Romans “used” up their bodies before they died.

Treason was punished by crucifixion. The crucified person might not die for several days. The body remained on the cross - or post, we don’t know - until the birds picked the bones clean when the bones were then discarded. Anyone who removed a body prematurely would take that body’s place. For this reason, among others, the story of Jesus’ crucifixion as laid out in the Gospels is suspect.

(2) Stoning was the traditional Jewish method of public execution. Not Roman. When Rome conquered Judea, the Jewish authorities no longer could impose the death sentence. I have seen a list of 63 stoning offenses. You can find them in the Pentateuch or the Books of Moses. I grew weary looking for them. I’ve tried Google but no luck.

(3) As to punishing the “lowest of the lowest,” aren’t they already being “punished” enough?

[edit on 4/15/2006 by donwhite]

As far as the idea of Demons is concerned, I work in the medical field, specifically with EEG, and I can tell you that not every person that comes through the door is able to be diagnosed with a psychological or neurological issue as you claim. I have seen people that seem to do things that makes no logical sense and there is no medical explanation for it. Usually someone with these types of issues is brought in by family and the doctors pass them from specialist to specialist and test to test and are never able to figure out why they do what it is they do. At some point the original Doctor gives up and tells them to seek another primary doctor, and the process starts over again. I know that many of the people that are kept doped out of their minds in the Criminal Insane wards at some state prisons fit into this category.

Dalen is correct about the 3Rd day issue. The Execution had to be finished before the Sabbath that began on nightfall of Friday and continued until nightfall Saturday. When Christ said “it is finished”, died, and was pierced by the spear, that was during Friday, which makes it the first day.

Crucifixion was one of the forms of punishment used by the Roman Empire, Stoning was used by Jews and Islamics. The Jews that wanted Jesus removed from the picture wanted the Romans to execute the punishment so they did not look like they were involved, and the matter had it been handled by an outside third party to give their cause the appearance of additional credibility. Therefore since Rome was used as the executioner, a Roman method of executions was used.

The reason that the death penalty was issued and not that of a lesser crime, is that the Jewish leaders that were pressing the Romans wanted him publicly executed to end the idea that he was the Son of God. If they had simply made him disappear it would not have ended his teachings in the way they wished. The pseudopigraphal book of Nicodemus (Acts of Pilate), though it should not be taken as inspired scripture, shows some of the mind set of the Jewish religious leaders toward Christ and some of the things that they attempted to have him charged with. All were death penalty crimes, none of them minor.

I do not feel that the Romans feared Jesus in the slightest, and Pilate tries repeatedly to help him avoid the death sentence. He finally becomes so aggravated with the situation, if you recall correctly, that he “washes his hands”, of the entire incident. The Jewish Priests on the other hand did fear Christ; they did not like his teachings on much of the Mosaic Religious Laws. Especially his challenging them on the Sabbath, activates in the Temple Court, his preaching about Hypocrites within the Church, and the like. On top of that, if it ended up being true that he was in fact the messiah and he did sacrifice himself, it would have ended the need for the Temple Sacrifice and put them out of power. They were acting to protect their worldly interests and positions.

If Christ had come into Jerusalem with any type of army and lead a revolt as you speak of, then he would have had an easier time with convincing the Jewish Religious leaders of his day that he was in fact the Messiah. They expected the Messiah to be of the line of David and a warrior that would free them from the yoke of the Romans. When he road into town on a donkey, it showed them he was not, and pretty much sealed his fate. If Christ had tried what it is you’re claiming then there would have been a record of it written somewhere, most likely by Josephious, and Pilate would not have tried to have Barabus sent to death instead of Christ.


[edit on 4/15/2006 by defcon5]

(1) Roman justice included flogging - flagellation - for minor offenses, and sentencing to man the oars of Roman galleys for serious offences. Usually 20 years. And not one man in 50 survived. It was equal to a death sentence but like the forced labor of the past, the Romans “used” up their bodies.

You are confusing the punishment of a Roman Citizen with that of others. A Roman Citizen could only be crucified for an act of treason; others could be for any of a number of reasons. It was often used when they wished to purposely show loss of a persons rank as it was considered by them to be the lowest form of death possible. The body of those they wished to show loss of status for was left to be picked apart by the birds, as being allowed to bury it would show the criminals body honor and status. The fact that Pilate allowed Joseph and Nicodemus to remove and bury the body is further proof that Rome had no axe to grind with Jesus, thereby showing no rebellion occurred, and his execution was allowed solely to placate the Jewish Religious leadership of the day.

[edit on 4/15/2006 by defcon5]

The reason why Jesus was crucified, instead on stoned is because the Jews didn't want to be unclean for Passover....It was a Jewish custon to stone, and also Passover. If the Jews had stoned him, then they would have been ceremonially unclean, and not able to partake of Passover....So to make a long story short, they got the Romans to do their dirty work, and Roman custom was crucifiction.

Also, Jewish law didn't permit stoning for what was considered Jesus offense.

[edit on 15-4-2006 by jensouth31]

posted by defcon5: “As far as demons are concerned, I work in the medical field with EEG . . I can tell you not every person that comes through the door is able to be diagnosed with a psychological or neurological issue as you claim. [Edited by Don W]

I accept that. I do not accept that failure to diagnose would imply demons or other mysterious critters were the cause of the persons disability. Medicine would be the first to admit it does not have the human gnome finished, yet. As you are admitting. That does not mean a priest is the treatment of last resort.

“I have seen people do things that make no logical sense . . there is no medical explanation for it. Usually someone with these types of issues is brought in by family and the doctors pass them from specialist to specialist and test to test and are never able to figure out why they do what it is they do.

I do not doubt this.

“I know many people are kept doped out of their minds in the Criminal Insane wards at some state prisons fit into this category.

I also know of this practice. I’m from Ky and 100s of people drive by such a place every day and I’d wager not one person knows that 30 people are inside that octagonal building with small windows located high up in the walls. Inmates are kept under sedation to the point they must surely be Ky’s version of Haitian zombies. Our court system reviews their cases every 90 days. The review has become pro forma in most cases. If anyone knows what to do, I’m sure someone would listen.

“dAlen is correct about the 3rd day issue. The execution had to be finished before the Sabbath that began on nightfall of Friday and continued until nightfall Saturday.

Defcon5, why do you say “ - had to be - ” because the Romans did not “had to be” anything they did not want to be or do vis a vis the Jews. As I replied to Marg6043, you’re mixing apples and oranges. The Roman practice in the case of crucifixion was to use it as an example to the locals not to break Roman law. This is why the bodies remained on the cross - whatever form it took - until the bones were made bare by birds, rats and etc. Anyone who removed a body without authority was subject to taking the body’s place on the cross.

“The Jews wanted Jesus removed from the picture wanted the Romans to execute the punishment so they did not look like they were involved . . Therefore since Rome was used as the executioner, a Roman method of executions was used.

That’s quite a stretch, Defcon5. I feel absolutely comfortable when I say that was too unlikely to merit much discussion without some basis to carry it on. It is just not good logic to say “ . . since Rome was used . . “ as executioner by the captive and subjugated Jewish people and etc, etc.

“The reason the death penalty was issued and not that of a lesser crime is the Jewish leaders were pressing the Romans to end the idea that he was the Son of God.

I don’t agree with that scenario and I do not see any rationale for such an outcome. I’m not sure we understand today what the writers of olden times meant by ‘Son of God’ and ‘Son of Man.’ I know for a fact people today do not agree on what it meant. So how could we possibly know what a guy meant 2,000 years ago?

“ . . it would not have ended his teachings in the way they wished . . “

Which is the very question I have asked above. What was Jesus teaching that got him crucified? Not the Sermon on the Mount or the 2 great commandments. So what was it?

“ . . the Romans [did not] fear Jesus in the slightest . . Pilate tries to help him avoid the death sentence.”

Just who do you think was handing down the sentence that day? You’re losing me, Defcon5. Pilate was in charge. Not the Jewish High Priest. Pilate could hand down any sentence he wanted and no one would question him, I’m sure.

“The Jewish Priests did fear Christ; they did not like his teachings on the Mosaic Religious Laws. Especially his challenging them on the Sabbath, activates in the Temple Court, his preaching about Hypocrites within the Church, and the like.

Well, not ” . hypocrites in the church . ” yet, as that was never under the jurisdiction of the Jewish High Priest. As for Jesus complaining about “activities” in the Temple that activity was perfectly legitimate and it was done in the place set aside for that kind of activity. Only an extreme minority of super Jews objected to that practice, which was 100s of years old. I do not see that issue rising to the point you want to make it. I am unfamiliar with what religious laws of Moses and what Sabbath practices Jesus objected to.

“If Christ had come with an army and lead a revolt as you speak of, then he would have had an easier time with convincing the Jewish religious leaders of his day that he was in fact the Messiah. They expected the Messiah would free them from the yoke of the Romans. If Christ had tried what you’re claiming then there would have been a record of it written somewhere, most likely by Josephus, and Pilate would not have tried to have Barabus sent to death instead of Christ.

Well, I have read Josephus and I have very little confidence in the currency of the books by Josephus. The manuscripts we have are late first millennia and had been copied many times from the originals. I’m deeply suspicious the manuscripts have been altered to conform to a larger agenda.

[edit on 4/15/2006 by donwhite]

posted by jensouth31: “The reason Jesus was crucified, instead on stoned is because the Jews didn't want to be unclean for Passover . . to make a long story short, (1) they got the Romans to do their dirty work, and Roman custom was crucifixion. Also, Jewish law didn't permit stoning for what was considered (2) Jesus’ offense. [Edited by Don W]

(1) JS31, pray tell how the subjugated peoples, the Jews, got the conquerors, the Romans, to do their bidding?

(2) What was Jesus’ offense to death?

[edit on 4/15/2006 by donwhite]

posted by dAlen: “They were Jews before Christians. . . you are right it is nit-picking , , as for the days. I will attempt one more time. He had to die before the Shabbat . . :

1. OK, “Shabbat” is Jewish for English Sabbath?
2. Sabbath (Sabbat) begins at sundown on Friday and ends at sundown on the next day, Saturday.

“ . . Which means all this took place before Friday evening . .

So, you’re saying Jesus was crucified on Thursday? Thursday ending at sundown so why does the Holy Writ say he was crucified on Friday?

1) On Friday which is day 1 he died and was buried . . “

OK

“ . .
2) Friday night which is Jewish day 2 he is resting . .

NO,
dAlen, Friday is #1 above, and cannot also be #2. If that was true, then Saturday part #2 would be the 3rd “day” so since Jesus rose on the AM of Sunday, that wold be #1 of the 3rd day or Number 4!

3) Saturday night which is Jewish day 3 he is still resting
4) Sunday morning Jewish day 3 part 2 he rises
Gods Peace Don [Edited by Don W]

I appreciate your effort, but I can’t dig this 1/2 day stuff counting as a whole day. Sometimes, but not all the time. Look, lets just take it as it was reported. Died on Friday, raise don Sunday. In the grave, TWO days. Let’s call it a misprint.

[edit on 4/15/2006 by donwhite]

don,

A new day began at sundown Friday. Jesus was crucified before sundown Friday, that's day one. The jewish day runs from sundown to sundown. That's why the story goes the Jews didn't want Jesus up on the cross for Passover, which began at sundown. So technically day one is Friday before sundown. Day two is sundown Friday to sundown Saturday. Day three is sundown Saturday to sundown Sunday, and Jesus rose the morning of the third day.

ok?

[edit on 15-4-2006 by Icarus Rising]