Pyramids at Giza were there BEFORE the Egyptians got there.

Originally posted by Harte

However, there is at this moment a researcher that truly is hot on the trail of the tomb of Imhotep, the architect of the pyramids. If this tomb is found, and it's not been too badly robbed, we might just be on the verge of finally discovering exactly how it was done. If this archaeologist is right, then we should know within the next few years.

Harte

This is within the area surrounding the Steppe Pyramid, isn't it?

I saw something to this effect the night of the Special a few weeks ago.

I am also looking forward to seeing the results of this discovery.

More of that Tunnel stuff thats not related.

Ciao

Shane

Originally posted by wild_cat
That is a good point you made. However i still believe they had the knowledge of making those buildings. Pulleys and levers had been discovered already so no one knows what types of machines they could have used. The only place that would know how, when or why these buildings were built would be in the libraries of Alexandria and Constantanople, but those buildings were burned down with all the knowledge in them. If those buildings and there documents were still around today then our whole view of ancient civilazations would not be what they are today

Which sets the stage for a whole new line of questioning. Was it planned to burn the Library of Alexandria and destroy Constantinople, with the singular intent of depriving the world of the knowledge that we could have had? That brings me to the conclusion that there may have been a group of people around then that had the job of preventing the expansion of the human race entirely.

I need to make another thread on this, cause I don't want to derail this one. Let it be known though that I feel that if at any point humans were capable of making such grand structures, that we would have made sure to have adequate record-keeping of the design concepts of the machines for future use.

TheBorg

Originally posted by Shane

Originally posted by Harte

However, there is at this moment a researcher that truly is hot on the trail of the tomb of Imhotep, the architect of the pyramids.

This is within the area surrounding the Steppe Pyramid, isn't it?

I saw something to this effect the night of the Special a few weeks ago.

Shane,

Yes, I believe it is to the west of the Step Pyramid at Saqquara. In an area that had previously been discounted and was believe to only be like a waste material dump.

I think the show was on the Discovery Channel. Might've been the History Channel. Looks like we both keep an eye out for televised info on the Egyptians.

I spent years being bored to death of anything Egyptian, it not being ancient enough to catch my interest. Don't know what changed, me or the info out of Egypt. Probably I had to read up on Egypt due to arguments about the Priest of Sais, and ended up getting engrossed.

Originally posted by TheBorg
Which sets the stage for a whole new line of questioning. Was it planned to burn the Library of Alexandria and destroy Constantinople, with the singular intent of depriving the world of the knowledge that we could have had?

Hardly. It's quite unlikely that any record of pyramid construction was preserved at Alexandria. (Consider the name of the city.) It's certain that Constantinople had no such records. Politics, as so often happens, determined what cities, or parts of cities, would be destroyed and not some hidden conspiratorial plot.

Harte

Originally posted by TheBorgWhich sets the stage for a whole new line of questioning. Was it planned to burn the Library of Alexandria and destroy Constantinople, with the singular intent of depriving the world of the knowledge that we could have had?

Brief answer (we need to discuss this elsewhere): yes.

The historical account (which is more legend and not "eyewitness") is that Hypatia was hacked to death with clamshells because she, the head librarian, was a woman and having a woman in charge was against Christian laws. She was also a pagan and would not convert (according to another account) and the library was full of Pagan manuscripts (felt to have demonic influences at the time.)

Wikipedia has a good summary. But... it's a topic for another thread.
en.wikipedia.org...

This is to Harte. Radiocarbon dating of the great pyramid ranges from 2853 to 3809 B.C. Average being 3809 B.C. The wheel was invented between the 3200 to 3500 B.C. So yes the wheel WAS invented when the great pyramid was constructed.


ourworld.compuserve.com...

www.brigantine.atlnet.org...

Originally posted by wild_cat
This is to Harte. Radiocarbon dating of the great pyramid ranges from 2853 to 3809 B.C. Average being 3809 B.C. The wheel was invented between the 3200 to 3500 B.C. So yes the wheel WAS invented when the great pyramid was constructed.

ourworld.compuserve.com...

www.brigantine.atlnet.org...

From your ourworld.compuserve link:

Most Egyptologists believe that the Great Pyramid was built about 4600 years ago by Khufu (Greek: Cheops), the second king of the 4th dynasty...

...The radiocarbon dates for the Great Pyramid ranged from 2853 to 3809 BC, the average being 3029 BC...

I'll accept the first date from that site, at least until there's reason not to.
From your other (timeline) link:

Pottery invented c. 7900 B.C... ...Wheel invented c. 3200 - 3500 B.C....

The date here for pottery iswrong by about 6,000 years!

Also, the first invention of the wheel is thought to have occured about 8,000 BC in Asia.

While the wheel's first appearance in Mesopotamia may have been between 3200 and 3500 BC, it did not appear in Egypt until around 2500 BC, or so it is currently thought.

The wheel spread from Mesopotamia quickly into Northwest Europe. Wheels also came into use around that time in India and China. In Egypt, the wheel became known about 2500 bce.

Source

Here's a link to an inventor's site that speculates on the various theories as to how the pyramids were constructed without using wheels.

BTW, the pulley itself wouldn't have helped anything in the construction. A simple pulley provides no mechanical advantage at all, it merely changes the direction of the required force. To gain any mechanical advantage, a compound pulley must be used. The compound pulley was invented by Archimedes sometime in the 3rd century BC, more than 2,000 years after pyramid construction ended.
Source.

So, I wasn't clear and technically, we're both right. Yes the wheel was invented, and no, the wheel wasn't invented (or not introduced) in Egypt at the time the pyramids were built.

Regardless, it has been shown in recent years that the mass of the stones was great enough to destroy even log rollers, so wheels are pretty much out of the question anyway. This is because a log roller, having a much larger surface area in contact with the load and the ground simultaneously than any wheel can, distributes the load much much better than a wheel. Yet the loads were so great that no log could carry them without the log either being crushed or split in very short order.

Harte

i guess we can agree to disagree

We just need to find out when Moses was chased across the Red Sea by the Egyptians. We know that he was chased by the Egyptian army in chariots. Now I'm quite sure that these chariots didn't use square wheels. They used the good round ones. Find that date out, and you'll know that they had wheels by at least that date.

TheBorg

Originally posted by TheBorg
We just need to find out when Moses was chased across the Red Sea by the Egyptians. We know that he was chased by the Egyptian army in chariots. Find that date out, and you'll know that they had wheels by at least that date.
TheBorg

There are different views on the exact date Moses left Egypt, but I like that one. It was during the 13th Dynasty. Since, even the official date for the building of the Great pyramid at Giza is during the 4th dynasty, knowing when Moses lived doesn't help much. You would be more helpful if you found out why the builders bothered to be so seeminly unnecessarily precise in their angles, alignments, and ratios, and why they made it so detailed, and so very complex, ie. each tier of stones a different height.

lastdayprophet had a similar topic (though his claim was that king solomon built it with god as the foreman), and the radius of the earth argument has been disproven

the pyramids aren't aligned to orions belt, it's only true if you go back 10,000 years, and then it is just a coinicidence.

this topic is old and stale

unless you find NEW evidence to show the pyramids weren't built by the egyptians, please refrain from starting new topics.

Originally posted by TheBorg
We just need to find out when Moses was chased across the Red Sea by the Egyptians. We know that he was chased by the Egyptian army in chariots. Now I'm quite sure that these chariots didn't use square wheels. They used the good round ones. Find that date out, and you'll know that they had wheels by at least that date.

TheBorg

Ummm, how about finding the oldest depiction of chariots in Egyptian art??

Pharaohs were pretty big on recording battles and festivals.......some of the tombs or temples might help date the use of the wheel. ( for instance there was at least one chariot in Tut's tomb, but he's one of the more 'modern' kings, so the wheel was in use before him....Byrd??)

Originally posted by frayed1

Originally posted by TheBorg
We just need to find out when Moses was chased across the Red Sea by the Egyptians. We know that he was chased by the Egyptian army in chariots. Now I'm quite sure that these chariots didn't use square wheels. They used the good round ones. Find that date out, and you'll know that they had wheels by at least that date.

TheBorg

Ummm, how about finding the oldest depiction of chariots in Egyptian art??

Pharaohs were pretty big on recording battles and festivals.......some of the tombs or temples might help date the use of the wheel. ( for instance there was at least one chariot in Tut's tomb, but he's one of the more 'modern' kings, so the wheel was in use before him....Byrd??)

exactly!

the written (well, more drawn in this case) word is one of the most accurate ways at measuring technological developments

we found that they used the nile to transport building materials and obelisks from murals

unfortunatly, history is a bit tougher than just finding out what was written, because a lot of stuff gets destroyed
damn the book-burners

My head is full of things I've read in the past, but I'll be damned if I can remember half of them...old age catches us all I guess. I think It was our good friend Mr. Hancock who put forward the theory that the actual site of the pyramids predates the Egyptians, they simply recognised it's importance (or perhaps were told it's importance) and built upon it. That would explain the carbon dating of the mortar that fits with accepted data, and also fits neatly with the theory that the whole Giza plateau is a mirror image of the heavens- complete with the Nile representing the milky way- 10,500 years ago, along with several other sites on the Earth, allegedly built by the remnants of a mighty civilization destroyed by 'the' cataclysm. But all that is for another thread...

If the Egyptians did build something as complex as the Pyramids with exact (or near exact) standards...then why is the head on the sphinx too small for its body?
www.science-frontiers.com...

Maybe the egyptians didn't build the sphinx?
there has been lots of debate around who built the sphinx so to say some thing like that about the pyramids would be very probable. You aalso need to take into consideration all the writings about other extravagant beings visiting Egypt without "Leaving their mark" but personally i think that every story about egypt is tryue because their had to be some idea to spark all those stories.

THe Aleins Had That Old School Flying Saucers THat How The Egytians Got The ideas

Originally posted by TheBorg
We just need to find out when Moses was chased across the Red Sea by the Egyptians. TheBorg

Well, this is not "MSM", but Based on a Theory called the Pyramid Inch, and the Internal measurements of the Great Pyramid, some think this maybe 1453 BC.

www.biblebelievers.org.au...

Moving down the Descending Passage, now in a forward or southerly direction, we arrive at the junction of the Ascending Passage and the Descending Passage this point, calculations reveal, represents the year 1453 BC. Precise interpretations of the significance of this year are impossible, however in a general sense this period points to Moses receiving the ten commandments on Mount Sinai, the "Exodus" of the Jews from Egypt, the era of the Upanishads and the composition of the hymns of the Hindu Vedas. We now have a choice of which direction to take upwards towards spirituality or downwards to some spiritual death, let us take the upward path.

As you may imagine, it goes much further, and happens to be a very interesting coincidence.

I thought maybe someone should at least throw a date out there for consideration.

Ciao

Shane

Still reading all those lenghty posts here before I add my thoughts, but I found this picture of the
FACING

Originally posted by Essan

Originally posted by Cowboy1

I remain puzzled as to why we have not seen more descriptive evidence and as to why, after such magnificent achievements, they just returned to their normal way of life and neither built nor produced anything that even came close to these achievements in the ensuing centuries.

One might say much the same of the great European cathedrals - incredible works of craftmanship the likes of which have never been repeated. Why? Why are modern cathedrals such dull, plain, simply structures compared with the likes of Chartres - a massive structure towering above the landscape? Maybe the old cathedrals were built by aliens and we no longer have the technology to replicate them?

Chartres:-




St Mary's, San Fransisco:-

Yes I totally agree I think the entire city of Rome was built by Aliens or from people from the future traveling in time.

I sometimes feel that people don't want to look at the facts with an open mind when the facts point to something that makes them unconfortable. Must of the ideas ("Novels") that came out in the 1800's about the Pyramids, are beautifull fantasies with an racist undertone. Some of the great Minds of those years were Racist.

Why is this important?

Well if we can sit here and understand that until this day they are people that think that the Egyptians were white skin humans. This started back in the days as soon as Arqueologist started examining the Pyramids and I guess it never ocurred to them That THIS COULD HAVE BEEN BUILD BY COLORED PEOPLE.

I don't mean to say that there are not some serius questions about how did a Civilization so long ago had lets say the ability to build such a structure, without any heavy machinery or computers to help on the calculations

A book called the Sirius Mystery By Robert Temple, exposes "new" scientific evidence of an alien contatc 5000 years ago. Is somewhat of a heavy read. The author brings more than those 10 points specified in this thread. All of them very valid and for some we may never have an answer for. Arquelogy is not a time machine. We could however, theorize the way the pyramids were build or for that matter the place of Egyptian Civilization in Our History. But if you are going to theorize please do so without preconcived judgements. Here is what not to do, from The Sirius Mystery first 58 pages:

But just as no London gentlemen's club wishes to have a savage in a g-string waving his spear and poisoned arrows about in the members' lounge, so the interstellar club is unlikely to plug us straight into the circuits as a fully-fledge member.

If you don't see something wrong with this analogy than is better if you take some time out from researching this subject and try to learn a bit more about recent history something like the way the bush admin. does not want to hear about global warning, is not that the biologists dont have a huge amount of data to validate the argument. The Problem again is that there is no time machine so they cant predict exactly when and how the earth climate is going to change.

The must surprising thing is that although diferent theories about who, why or for what the pyramids were build? the Arqueologist are pretty much in concensus about the answers of all those questions.

I don't want to get of topic but Stonehenge has sarsen-stone blocks (weighing up to 50 tons each). Sarsen is a very hard form of sandstone found particularly on the Marlborough Downs some 18 miles to the north.

Hey guys anybody from the UK can tell me if people think Stonehenge was build by aliens? Maybe some people do. In my opinion, I don't think so, all the evidence leads me to beileve that it was built approximately 3000 B.C by Neolithic agrarians

LoKito:

While I hold a very similar belief as to who built the pyramids and similar structures, I find it somewhat disconcerting that you're so eager to slam the "little guy", namely the extraterrestrialists in here simply because they believe that aliens helped in the construction of said structures. I don't particularly believe that theory either, but I don't think that we have nearly enough evidence to either acknowledge or deny the idea.

The thing about this is that they may be right, there may have been alien involvement, albeit highly unlikely. My theory is that these structures are not from our current creation. I think they are the remnants of a previous incarnation of beings with far greater intelligence than we can even begin to comprehend, let alone utilize. I think the Egyptians came along afterwards and just marked them up to lay claim to something that they found. What a political move that would be. It would show the might of the residing empire. History will forever hold some secrets from us. There will be no way to prove any of this unless we find a cache of ancient artifacts somewhere. I look forward to that day with great fervor.

TheBorg

Well, while the Egyptians might not have made use of the wheel and pulleys, they most definately had an intricate understanding of masonry and building technique.

When dressing blocks, Egyptian masons used boning rods22 in order to obtain completely flat planes, as shown in the representation of the tomb of Rekhmira (fig. 6.7).23 Two people hold short pieces of wood; both pieces are the same length and arc connected to each other at their tops by a string. One man is moving a third rod of the same length over the block surface between the two other rods. If there still are protruding parts, the third rod would show above the line of the string. This kind of boning would probably have been done crosswise over all four corners. It would not have been sufficient, however, to level the stones. This task was probably done with the help of two level boards,24 a method used by masons even into this century

Below is an image taken from the tomb of Rekhmira, showing the application of such as tool.

This site also details quite a few other tools used in stone construction from the Old Kingdom on, many of which were invented and established by the Egyptians, and are still in use to this day. There is also a piece in there describing the ropes that were in use at the time

Naturally, ropes of a small diameter are more frequent, but we also know of thick ropes. Papyrus ropes found in 1942 and 1944 in the Tura caves, presumably of Ptolemaic or Roman date, had a circumference of 20.3 centimeters and a diameter of 6.35 centimeters. They consisted of three strands of a number of split and twisted papyrus culms.85 A rope made of five strands was recovered from the boat pit of Cheops.86 A "mammoth piece of cordage" of the Nineteenth Dynasty was found at Deir el-Bahari; it had a diameter of 6.8 centimeters.87

Why would ropes of this caliber be required unless something extremely large needed either moving or controlling? Granted, this still doesn't really give us any idea as to how the stones might have been moved, but it can be fairly certain that these massive ropes would have played a part.
The site is very interesting, and goes on in some detail, offering evidence, usefullness, timelines, and just about anything else you can think of on the Egyptian architectural process.

To move heavy loads on sledges appears to us, who now use them only in snow, a hopelessly outdated technology. But the days when such sledges were still commonly used are not really so long ago. For example, we know that in the quarries of Carrara, heavy blocks of marble were lowered on a lizza in 1929.115 These sledges carried well over 25 tons. They were constructed of oak, holm-oak, or beech; were 6 to 12 meters long; and were pulled by as many as fourteen pairs of yoked oxen.

Manpower and livestock were quite plentiful.
And in regards to the way that stone might have been moved over such great heights, let us not forget that there was one resource that the Egyptians had plenty of...sand.
Here is a site that I found regarding the theory of the manipulation of sand to move large stone blocks. Regrettably, I could not get the pictures to show.

[edit on 6-7-2006 by EdenKaia]