Opinions are NOT facts!

I see you still cannot get passed your belief that the Bible is the truth. Read my initial post in this thread and put your supposed facts to the test. I believe you will find that they fail that test.

Actually, it passes your test.

Opinions are required to interpret ambiguous statements, events or circumstances. Beliefs are usually derived from these interpretations. Facts however, make beliefs and interpretations redundant, as a fact has no ambiguity, thus does not need to be interpreted. Facts do not have a time limit, they are indisputable and what is a fact 1,000 years ago is still a fact now and will be in another 1,000 years. If any alleged facts do not meet this criteria, they are not facts.

I liken it to talking to a blind man. I can say, the sun came up this morning, that's a fact. The blind man responds, "That is your opinion".

No, it's a fact. Whether the blind man can see whether the sun came up or not, doesn't change the fact that it did. That's the truth, that's the facts.

Originally posted by mytym
This is why I say truth can be subjective but facts are objective.

Well said mytym
And Sun Matrix, if the Bible is FACT then why are there so many strong arguments debunking it, if it were fact then it would be impossible to do so IMO

Excellent analogy Sun Matrix! However in this analogy, you are the blind man, and telling me that it passes my test doesn't change the fact that it doesn't. It's your opinion, whether you can see that it is or not.

Originally posted by Mr Mxyztplk

Originally posted by mytym
This is why I say truth can be subjective but facts are objective.

Well said mytym
And Sun Matrix, if the Bible is FACT then why are there so many strong arguments debunking it, if it were fact then it would be impossible to do so IMO

Strong arguments disproving the Bible? I must have missed them. There is tons and tons of weak BS out there, but if the Bible could be disproved, I think it would have been done already.

The Bible states that it is the word of God. God states that man is fallible. If God placed his message in the hands of man, man by his vary nature corrupted it. There for it does not meet the standard that it lays out for it self, and is thus self defeating.
There now that thats done can we get back to the discussion at hand not get into a is the bible really the word of god debate, this thread is for (if I'm not mistaken) opinion Vs. fact.
Mytym I ave considered your words earlier about truth, how can some thing that is not fact be true? Sorry but it is either true or false it cannot be both. Truth must be objective for it to be true.

I find it laughable that some people claim to know what a "Fact" and an "Opinion" is (usually saying the Bible or Christians are "opinion" and whatever they believe is "Fact"). So you have solved the greatest epistemological problem of all time heh? Please, shower me with a proof worthy of a Descartes or a John Locke, both who (oops) took time to consider that their politics (leftist or otherwise) was not above critique and fell in with every other problem of human existence. Give me a break....

Because I'm not perfect takes away from my argument? Indeed if I'm not perfect the I can safely assume that maybe the people that wrote the bible weren't either. And maybe just maybe they could have made a mistake or two when writing what “god” had to say. But thank for coming out

The Bible states that it is the word of God. God states that man is fallible. If God placed his message in the hands of man, man by his vary nature corrupted it. There for it does not meet the standard that it lays out for it self, and is thus self defeating.

Please include all the facts.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Of course men are fallible but that's included within the concept of inspiration. They aren't fallible if they can be directed by God, or do you think a supreme being of that caliber doesn't have the ability to pick people who will preserve his will without alteration? Even in the Dark ages when the horrid Vulgate was being pushed on Christians by the RCC, the textus receiptus continued to be more popular and kept underground (more people read it than the Vulgate until the 12th century, many good men, many priests, assured that the RCC didn't wipe out God's words).

Sun matrix, Nakash
This is NOT a thread as to how god spoke to his people, be it the bible, the qur'an Hindu text or graffiti in a bath room stall. This is “OPINION VS. FACT”
If you must debate this topic and it seems you must then go and start a thread of your own and I will gladly stop by and throw in my two cents, for you both have good arguments but dude this is not the thread for that.

Again I already gave my answer- the difference between "Fact" and "opinion" is the most basic problem of Philosophy, somebody can't just come into ATs and say that everything he believes in is Fact and everybody else has "opinion". Nobody owns the truth. You could devote a whole life to reading Kant, Schopenhauer, Spinoza, and other great thinkers who struggled day and night attempting to figure out the answer to that question. It is in my belief ignorant to attempt to define something this important in such a careless way. 1000 threads would be insufficient. If we knew what Fact was for sure we would have a fail-proof guide for science and thus be infallible. Alas we don't and it's something still poorly defined and understood.

[edit on 21-4-2006 by Nakash]

Well I guess that if you want to play word games you could say that nothing is fact. I could even make an argument that I don”t exist, every thing in my life has merely been a dream, or maybe someone else's dream. In that case you're right there is no difference between opinion and fact. But here in reality there is. I could prove that I exist by getting up in the morning and going to work. And that is a fact.
Science is built on facts, as examined by scientists. They observe and deduce fact from what they observe.
I have not read Kant, schopenhauser nor Spinoza, but I can assume from your context that they questioned reality, Not disparage these fine thinkers but reality just is, and now we must deal with it.

That is not what I said, I merely questioned the standards by which some people on this board judge what is fact and what is opinion, I for one believe in absolutes (and I'm not one of those Berkeley followers whose reasoning is too sophisticated for some people, thus them being interpreted as saying that the "world does not exist" or some other minimalist reduction of their beliefs, nor am I a Singer type proponent of situational ethics crap).

[edit on 21-4-2006 by Nakash]

Originally posted by Mr Mxyztplk
Sun matrix, Nakash
This is NOT a thread as to how god spoke to his people, be it the bible, the qur'an Hindu text or graffiti in a bath room stall. This is “OPINION VS. FACT”
If you must debate this topic and it seems you must then go and start a thread of your own and I will gladly stop by and throw in my two cents, for you both have good arguments but dude this is not the thread for that.

Sorry Mr Mxyz,

That's exactly what this thread is about. This thread came about because the man was challenged in another thread to disprove the Bible. He threw out a question that he has used for years as a crutch not to believe the truth, and I answered his question by just reading the facts of the Bible.

Now he is looking for support to refute my "The Bible is fact" statement

You are certainly welcome to support him, in his denial of the factual truth of the Bible.

Nakash and Sun matrix... really you mean I've been getting my head stomped on by what appears to be two debaters that are way out of my league for a guy whom it seems has jumped ship!!! you two might want to go find some one a whee bit stronger to tangle with.

And as for you Mytym, You get a wag of my finger sir!!!flame:

I must go take an asprine now
peaceout

Does this help?
From my Collins Pocket English Dictionary, 1981. My word bible.
(I thought I had better throw the word "bible" into the mix. Don't want to be accused of getting off topic. lol)


opinion - what one thinks about something; belief; judgement.

fact - thing known to be true; reality

true - in accordance with the facts; faithful; exact; correct; genuine.

[edit on 22-4-2006 by point]

Originally posted by Mr Mxyztplk
Nakash and Sun matrix... really you mean I've been getting my head stomped on by what appears to be two debaters that are way out of my league for a guy whom it seems has jumped ship!!! you two might want to go find some one a whee bit stronger to tangle with.

And as for you Mytym, You get a wag of my finger sir!!!flame:

I must go take an asprine now

peaceout

Well, you got me laughing. You have a great sense of humor.

I'm looking forward to reading your comments in the future.


SUN

The Bible is the Word of God is an opinion.
The Bible is not the Word of God is an opinion.

The Bible is a book which claims to be the Word of God is a fact.


Also, just as you can't define a word by including that word in the definition, you can't use verses from the Bible to prove it is what it claims to be.


IMO

Originally posted by mytym
I have seen many examples of posts, and indeed threads, here on ATS that seem to confuse facts with beliefs and opinions. Just because you state something as a fact, doesn't make it so.

ya think ?? lol... that is one of the reason i dont stop by as much anymore... it wuite tiring to see "wikipedia" and other "reliabele" sources posted as fact.

oh ..maybe noone ever told you ... if it is on the Internet IT IS TRUE

Originally posted by quango
The Bible is the Word of God is an opinion.
The Bible is not the Word of God is an opinion.

I want to add that an opinion isn't right or wrong.

It is waiting to be proved fact or not-fact.