Ahmadinejad: Tomorrow night, Iranians would be delighted hearing good news

Originally posted by grimreaper797
I have not stolen, because i have far too much pride to(dont start making judgements about people)

Sorry. Not buying it. We've all stolen something at some point in our lives.

That way they think about it, if its worth the fine and probation.

I agree. A hefty fine is better than cutting off a hand.

fine if you believe you can judge a person without knowing them and make such a generalization thats fine, i cant change that type of ignorance. but i will reassure you that i have never stolen anything up to this point, not even as a young child. i have had the urge to but i never did it. i had to much a fear of being looked down upon even when i was little.

a huge fine would work multiple ways (should the government not abuse/rob from it, which is unlikely im afraid)

Originally posted by 27jd
Sure, but not on the same level. At least they try and create the illusion of equality and tolerance for other beliefs.

Yeah, but -- exactly. They really don't care what they have to say they believe as long as the agenda is followed. They've turned our civil liberties into tools to motivate their base supporters. One of the problems is who controls our government.

Um, they pretty much are. They're even at war with themselves (sunni vs. shia).

No they're not, this could just be opinion but I don't think they're at war with anyone right now, conflicts have been sparse, especially lately. Iraq excluded... I think we're going off topic. We started by talking about Iran, let's talk about Iran, they haven't bothered anyone in years. They were attacked by Iraq for the whole Iran-Iraq conflict. If you didn't know we sort of helped out in starting it... no wonder Iran calls us the Great Satan.

We would never allow them to engage in some of the more brutal aspects of Islam as they do in their countries, but they are accepted here. Again, I have muslim friends and I would never treat a muslim badly just for being a muslim.

Those things that you think are brutal aspects have nothing to do with Islam. Those are the radicals that you already named in power. Of course they're accepted here but they are quickly assimilated into our culture OR ALREADY WERE... meanwhile we've been assimilating them in their own countries for years with (again) our selfish westernized ways. Also I doubt that someone such as yourself who has kept an intelligent debate going for this long is capable of racism, sadly there are very few people like us in the united states and I know you know that.

As far as what that other guy said, there are members on these boards who simply don't know what they're talking about. There's also A LOT of unneeded bias going on recently on ATS... I don't trust any of that stuff, but given the chance people will be ignorant and say things like that person said. I've had people I know killed in this country for much less than "being a whore" that doesn't make it acceptable in the culture or legal in any way.

B. Sage

Originally posted by grimreaper797
fine if you believe you can judge a person without knowing them and make such a generalization thats fine, i cant change that type of ignorance.

I'm not judging you in any way, shape, or form. I never stated you were a good or bad person, it's just very very hard to believe that you or anybody else has never stolen so much as a piece of candy from the bulk containers in the gorcery store. It's not ignorance, it's common sense.

but i will reassure you that i have never stolen anything up to this point, not even as a young child. i have had the urge to but i never did it. i had to much a fear of being looked down upon even when i was little.

Whatever you say, but again, nobody would really have the right to look down upon you because they have all stolen themselves.

a huge fine would work multiple ways (should the government not abuse/rob from it, which is unlikely im afraid)

Of course the government will abuse and rob from it. Just like they do when they fine and sieze and sell the property of petty drug offenders etc. But that's still better than having your hand chopped off, right?

Originally posted by B Sage
Yeah, but -- exactly. They really don't care what they have to say they believe as long as the agenda is followed. They've turned our civil liberties into tools to motivate their base supporters. One of the problems is who controls our government.

That is the problem, only we have no real idea who actually controls it, I know it's not Bush's dumb arse. No matter who we elect, they are just puppets and follow the same agenda it seems, they just tell different lies. Rooting out the actual "corporate" puppetmasters would be quite a challenge.

No they're not, this could just be opinion but I don't think they're at war with anyone right now, conflicts have been sparse, especially lately.

Iran has been fighting a proxy war with Israel for some time.

We started by talking about Iran, let's talk about Iran, they haven't bothered anyone in years.

Not directly, but they equip and sponsor terrorist orgs regularly, and have for quite a while. That is not grounds to attack them mind you, we have done the same thing, but I've always said that to allow them to obtain nukes that would pretty much result in an immediate nuclear standoff with Israel just to satisfy the "it's only fair" principle is not a smart idea as far as the whole avoiding a nuclear conflict on earth thing goes. Sure one can say it's MAD and nobody would be stupid enough to nuke anybody, but we're dealing with REAL religious fundamentalists on both sides who sincerely hate each other and believe their gods are in their corner, not fake corporate whores pretending to be religious fundamentalists like Bush who only worship money. That's what kept us from nuclear war with the Soviets, neither side was willing to sacrifice themselves. Of course it's not 100% for sure that nuclear war will break out, but the chances will be much higher than they are now.

They were attacked by Iraq for the whole Iran-Iraq conflict. If you didn't know we sort of helped out in starting it... no wonder Iran calls us the Great Satan.

They called us the Great Satan before that though. We helped both sides, and I think it was wrong. We are definitely not perfect, but no nation on earth is. That doesn't mean we should hasten the fall of mankind by allowing the nuclear floodgate to open.

Those things that you think are brutal aspects have nothing to do with Islam.

I know, just like burning people alive had nothing to do with christianity, it was the followers who screwed it up. Those brutal aspects have become part of the culture in many places, and I've stated before it's not the fault of Islam. I think we agree there, I would just like to see the culture surrounding the religion join the civilized world, that doesn't mean they need a McDonald's on every corner or anything.

Of course they're accepted here but they are quickly assimilated into our culture OR ALREADY WERE... meanwhile we've been assimilating them in their own countries for years with (again) our selfish westernized ways.

We don't force them to, just as we don't force the amish to assimilate and they don't. They could lead fundamental lifestyles here if they wish as long as they don't violate basic human rights. Nobody is forcing them into the strip club, heck it leaves more seats open for me if they don't go, lol.

Also I doubt that someone such as yourself who has kept an intelligent debate going for this long is capable of racism, sadly there are very few people like us in the united states and I know you know that.

Unfortunately you're probably right, there are probably few people like us in the world, or else it would be a much more peaceful place.

I've had people I know killed in this country for much less than "being a whore" that doesn't make it acceptable in the culture or legal in any way.

But that's the thing it is overlooked legally and acceptable in those cultures....

en.wikipedia.org...

it states clearly that honor killings are not condoned by Islam, but instead have become part of the culture and Islam is used as an excuse even though it is forbidden in the religion.

Originally posted by 27jd
But that's the thing it is overlooked legally and acceptable in those cultures....

en.wikipedia.org...

it states clearly that honor killings are not condoned by Islam, but instead have become part of the culture and Islam is used as an excuse even though it is forbidden in the religion.

This is true, also, honor killings are not at all limited to Islamic culture. That source clearly states pretty much all of South America and as we know South America is majorly Catholic. So called "honor killings" (that even happen in the U.S. in non-Muslim families) show nothing more than less modern behavior. Yes, in westernized culture they are more often punished but that can be a developmental problem as much as anything. The middle east is very underdeveloped... not as much as Africa... which brings up an interesting point.

While we (you and I) live in the information age, most of the world does not. Take rural China, 70% of their population is rural farmers!!! There's no such thing as "internets" to those people. I don't even need to describe India. Still to us, underdeveloped means less civilized... let us not think for a moment that we are the modern world... we are FAR ahead. Greater atrocities take place in Africa, than in the Islamic world. in those cases... western influence has completely backfired, that's why we never hear about the things happening there.

Example being that Iran does not intend to nuke the US or anyone else... but (hell, at this point I'm going to come right out with it) Iran needs nuclear weapons so we don't invade them. I know the logic is strange but we live in a strange world. Right now, Iran is there... bordered by two American occupied countries... those countries are going to be quickly westernized... Iran knows this, Iran is sitting on incredibly valuable Caspian Sea resources, Iran is going to be the last "rogue power"... we in the west do not understand that Iran is a sovereign nation, not a terrorist state. Why is the US clumping them in?

There is no "Al Qaeda" as we know it. Sure there are terrorists but 20 guys here, 4 in the UK and a few more in Spain does not an international terrorist network make.

Also, why do Islamic countries and other groups clump some very independent people (like myself) in with the neo-con agenda? If there's anyone out there who is one of these radicals maybe you can answer that for me. I'm as much against the people in power here as they are but I'm not about to go blow myself up... there are other ways especially in the US and other countries with the infrastructure to spread the information that what is going on is not right. These mega-corporations are totally entrenched, they've been dug in and ready for rejection for years. I don't know it's really weird.

When I hear Bush and all these guys speak it's like they totally have forgotten the "There is nothing to fear but fear itself" speech.

These guys have used fear as a motivator more effectively than "the evil doers" ... It drives me crazy to watch Bush speak... he talks about things that don't even exist... NOW they're going to push this whole Iran is going to get nukes... Looking at some threads and using them as a general consensus for the average un/disinformed public, most people don't even realize that nuclear weapons are not the end of the world... people are VERY misinformed about this.

Well, tell me what you think 27jd, I'm enjoying our discussion.

This from www.foxnews.com
"The president of Iran again lashed out at Israel on Friday and said it was "heading toward annihilation,""

If you want to "peacefully" solve this impending crisis, it helps to be less obnoxious. I seriously shake my head when Iran's president steps up to a mic.

All I am saying is if you want to build a nuclear program for fuel, it would be very helpful if you did not make threats and statements that inflame and make leaders of other countries skeptical of your motives.

Originally posted by B Sage
This is true, also, honor killings are not at all limited to Islamic culture. That source clearly states pretty much all of South America and as we know South America is majorly Catholic. So called "honor killings" (that even happen in the U.S. in non-Muslim families) show nothing more than less modern behavior. Yes, in westernized culture they are more often punished but that can be a developmental problem as much as anything. The middle east is very underdeveloped... not as much as Africa... which brings up an interesting point.

That's what I meant when I said it may not be such a bad thing for their culture to be more "westernized", I meant it would be nice for them to be more developed and not overlook inhumane behavior carried out in the name of religion. Same goes for any country, Islamic or not that is stuck in the dark ages. I truly wish there were no organized religions and one's spirituality or relationship with "god" was held personal and not worn like a badge. Funny (well not really) how so many religious folks can find so many excuses to commit the worst crime in most faiths, murder.

While we (you and I) live in the information age, most of the world does not. Take rural China, 70% of their population is rural farmers!!! There's no such thing as "internets" to those people. I don't even need to describe India. Still to us, underdeveloped means less civilized... let us not think for a moment that we are the modern world... we are FAR ahead.

Yeah, but internet or not, I could NEVER murder my own child, no matter what mistakes he may make. It's not technology that makes my love for him unconditional, it's just the way it is. I guess that's why I see those societies as such a threat, imagine what they would do without even blinking to strangers they feel are their enemy if they can murder their own children.

Greater atrocities take place in Africa, than in the Islamic world. in those cases... western influence has completely backfired, that's why we never hear about the things happening there.

Yeah, but the main problem is nobody really cares about what happens in Africa it seems, they could use some western military influence there. The UN needs to clean house in a big way, it's the militias and warlords that commit those attrocities, as well as sieze the relief supplies etc. Those poor souls need us very badly, and would welcome with open arms a McDonalds on every corner I'm sure. Anytime there's a genocide there, the people are always asking where America is, and we don't do nearly enough because nobody cares. It sucks.

Example being that Iran does not intend to nuke the US or anyone else...

With all due respect, how do you know? Iran's president is a wild card, and if he truly believes some of the things he says, I think there's a very good chance they will. If not directly, through one of their proxy terrorist orgs whom they supply with weapons. And just to add balance I ask you, would you trust Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell with nuclear weapons? I wouldn't.

but (hell, at this point I'm going to come right out with it) Iran needs nuclear weapons so we don't invade them.

Okay, using that logic, Iran has other enemies, i.e. Turkey, Saudi Arabia, etc. Will they need nukes so Iran doesn't invade them? That's the problem, everybody has more than one enemy, so where does it stop? It doesn't, we'll be on the road to hyper-proliferation and we will have several nuclear powder kegs similar to the India/Pakistan thing we recently experienced, ready to go off at the drop of a hat.

I know the logic is strange but we live in a strange world.

Yeah, but IMO, using that logic, soon we won't be living at all.

Right now, Iran is there... bordered by two American occupied countries... those countries are going to be quickly westernized... Iran knows this, Iran is sitting on incredibly valuable Caspian Sea resources, Iran is going to be the last "rogue power"...

Right. That's why I don't understand why they're rocking the boat so hard. They have some powerful allies, and if they were just chillin' the U.S. would have NO reason at all to attack them. It would serve their interests better to strengthen their ties with Russia and China, without breaking international law which puts their friends in the U.N. in a compromising position. Instead they're doing their best to open every window for a U.S. attack, I don't get it. That's why sometimes I believe Iran's prez is working for Bush.

we in the west do not understand that Iran is a sovereign nation, not a terrorist state. Why is the US clumping them in?

But they are a terrorist sponsoring state, run by religious fundamentalists...
www.ict.org.il...

There is no "Al Qaeda" as we know it. Sure there are terrorists but 20 guys here, 4 in the UK and a few more in Spain does not an international terrorist network make.

I'm not talking about AQ, but Hizballah and others.

Also, why do Islamic countries and other groups clump some very independent people (like myself) in with the neo-con agenda? If there's anyone out there who is one of these radicals maybe you can answer that for me. I'm as much against the people in power here as they are but I'm not about to go blow myself up... there are other ways especially in the US and other countries with the infrastructure to spread the information that what is going on is not right. These mega-corporations are totally entrenched, they've been dug in and ready for rejection for years. I don't know it's really weird.

I'm with you. I want to see major change myself, but not on the level that everybody has nuclear weapons. I want a peaceful world where we get along, not because we all have guns to each others' heads, but because we realize we are all human beings before we are anything else. *steps off soap box*

These guys have used fear as a motivator more effectively than "the evil doers" ... It drives me crazy to watch Bush speak... he talks about things that don't even exist... NOW they're going to push this whole Iran is going to get nukes... Looking at some threads and using them as a general consensus for the average un/disinformed public, most people don't even realize that nuclear weapons are not the end of the world... people are VERY misinformed about this.

Well, they may not be the end of the world, the rock will keep spinning, but they sure can destroy everything we've created, good or bad, and turn our existence upside down. I don't want to live in a "Mad Max" world, do you? I know Bush is full of crap, but on this issue it's not just us but the EU and many others who are concerned. We can't look at every issue in black or white, there are shades of gray as well. Sure they cried wolf in Iraq and should face the music for that, but we know how that story ended and the wolf did come but nobody believed it.

I'm enjoying our discussion.

I am as well, it's nice for once to discuss the issue without being accused of being "pro-war" (I hate war), or a Bush supporter (feel the same about Bush).

[edit on 14-4-2006 by 27jd]

Originally posted by 27jd
Funny (well not really) how so many religious folks can find so many excuses to commit the worst crime in most faiths, murder.

"As long as people believe in absurdities they will continue to commit atrocities" - Voltaire

Yeah, but internet or not, I could NEVER murder my own child, no matter what mistakes he may make. It's not technology that makes my love for him unconditional, it's just the way it is. I guess that's why I see those societies as such a threat, imagine what they would do without even blinking to strangers they feel are their enemy if they can murder their own children.

I understand. I used to have this idea that you might agree with, it was that if we do not have a minor nuclear conflict and learn a terrible lesson soon the world will eventually come to have a nuclear conflict and the capability of those involved will be powerful enough to destroy our race. Basically I think maybe we should get it out of our system before it could get really really bad. Well maybe we're already at the point where it could get really really bad. As you can see I have very little faith in humanity, haha.

With all due respect, how do you know? Iran's president is a wild card, and if he truly believes some of the things he says, I think there's a very good chance they will. If not directly, through one of their proxy terrorist orgs whom they supply with weapons. And just to add balance I ask you, would you trust Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell with nuclear weapons? I wouldn't.

Oh man, no, I would not trust those guys with nukes, EVER, hahah. But you're right, I don't know. I know what you mean with the seemingly perpetual proliferation that would have to happen but what are our alternatives with this Iran situation? Why can't we have a modern day Kissinger?

I think the reason why we won't extend the hand of friendship and really work this out with Iran is because we're going to invade them. That's just what I feel... Are we even in our right minds right now? We should be sending armies diplomatic envoys... not threats JUST AS INSANE as what people in Iran have said... Seriously we're beyond kissing and making up because this has all been planned out.

Right. That's why I don't understand why they're rocking the boat so hard. They have some powerful allies, and if they were just chillin' the U.S. would have NO reason at all to attack them. It would serve their interests better to strengthen their ties with Russia and China, without breaking international law which puts their friends in the U.N. in a compromising position. Instead they're doing their best to open every window for a U.S. attack, I don't get it. That's why sometimes I believe Iran's prez is working for Bush.

It's true... Iran is REALLY playing into the plan... if it's not us, it's going to be Israel... I guess it's already too late.

I'm not talking about AQ, but Hizballah and others.

Exactly. Have you ever watched Fox news? They've got POLITICIANS on there talking about Al Qaeda and Iran work together. Perpetuating the International Terror Network fantasy. Hezbollah doesn't quite have the same ring to it as Al Qaeda does here in the states... I suppose it's a matter of convenience for them to just say Al Qaeda.

I don't want to live in a "Mad Max" world, do you?

Depends on which movie. Hahah, kidding.

If nothing else, I've pretty much lost all hope with this situation over the last few days, it's looking worse and worse for both countries. Do you think there would be a way for both Iran and America to overthrow both their governments in a couple of days and all of us go and meet half way, somewhere out in the Atlantic to give each other a big hug?

If there are any Iranians out there who'd like a hug... I've got good ones I've been saving up. We're all brothers and sisters... No war please.

If only it were that simple.

B. Sage

The usual 1 sided rhetorik from the Americans in response to mehrans statement that don't even think about nuking us or else..then alot of whitetrash jerks respond by making lame threats of nuke attacks or military strikes that will never happen..

If the United States uses a nuke on Iran or hits an atomic facility that creates a humanitarian disaster, the USA will get nuked, soon after the disaster, the Americans are such idiots, as if you could even think about getting away with it in the modern world..use a nuke-get nuked in short order, there are many nukes and many ways to deliver them to north america so get over yourselves and SFU.

The US will get it's ass worked over in a war with Iran, Iran will pound the Iraqi-US Airbases with missiles and destroy any ship that comes to resupply them in the Persian Gulf-why the hell you think Bush/Pentagon keeps taking the military option off the table, because the US would lose, that simple--you say because they're trying to negotiate, non-sense Iran just said they are enriching and going to industrial scale enrichment, no negotiating on this issue period.

You say the US spends so much money on their military so they will easily win vs Iran..non-sense; the US is operating on the other side of the world, bases on countries such as Kuwait, Bahrain, Turkey would be off limits, the situation in Iraq is one of a military spread-out and under seige, Irans is in a fist on the border and is at least 10 times the size of the coalition..more artilary, more rockets, more tanks and way more troops. USAF will not be so usefull once the airbases in Iraq are shattered by repeated missile attacks, and air sorties by cruise missiles, and launched from the US are too few and too far in between to deliver the kind of punishing air-strikes the US needs to disable Irans missile/attack threat, and US Army will be in desparate need once Persian Gulf shipping grinds to a halt. You keep saying the US will win a war, but you never know how and yu always end up losing it.

[edit on 15-4-2006 by jajabinks]

Originally posted by B Sage
"As long as people believe in absurdities they will continue to commit atrocities" - Voltaire

Couldn't agree more, good quote.

Well maybe we're already at the point where it could get really really bad. As you can see I have very little faith in humanity, haha.

I think even a small nuclear exchange could escalate into a very bad situation. I understand your lack of faith in humanity, up until this point it hasn't failed at sucking butt in general, lol.

I know what you mean with the seemingly perpetual proliferation that would have to happen but what are our alternatives with this Iran situation?

I don't know, it's a catch 22. It's not really worth spending too much time trying to figure it out, because even if you or I came up with a real soluton and the governments listened, the solution would likely be rational and thought out, so it wouldn't fly with either side.

Why can't we have a modern day Kissinger?

He'd probably be assasinated...

Seriously we're beyond kissing and making up because this has all been planned out.

Yep, it probably has, on both sides. Just look at what jajabinks posted before this post, it's like a pre-match WWE interview. And some of our own countrymen sound the same, it's sad because more good people are probably gonna die.

It's true... Iran is REALLY playing into the plan... if it's not us, it's going to be Israel... I guess it's already too late.

We'll soon find out one way or the other I'm sure.

Exactly. Have you ever watched Fox news? They've got POLITICIANS on there talking about Al Qaeda and Iran work together. Perpetuating the International Terror Network fantasy. Hezbollah doesn't quite have the same ring to it as Al Qaeda does here in the states... I suppose it's a matter of convenience for them to just say Al Qaeda.

I dunno, from my understanding Bin Laden and Iran were enemies, but who knows if they made up in order to focus on us. If Fox news and the pliticians are lying, maybe it's the George Costanza lying princinple (from Seinfeld), "it's not a lie, if you believe it".

Depends on which movie. Hahah, kidding.

Yeah, we should put Bush and Ahmadinejad in the Thunderdome and let them iron it out.

Do you think there would be a way for both Iran and America to overthrow both their governments in a couple of days and all of us go and meet half way, somewhere out in the Atlantic to give each other a big hug?

That'd be cool if there were a way.

If there are any Iranians out there who'd like a hug... I've got good ones I've been saving up. We're all brothers and sisters... No war please.

I'll hug some of those Iranian women any day. And a firm handshake for the men.

If only it were that simple.

It really should be.