Jesus Papers

Didn't see this discussed yet,

Saw it on TV last nite, and read a bit about it in a magazine the other day.


Author, Michael Baigent, has introduced a new book to follow his previous "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" called 'The Jesus Papers'.
In it, he tries have people believe that Jesus did not die on the cross and was actually 'drugged' to a state of unconsciousness, fooling everyone to believe he was dead.
Michael Baigent offers no actual proof, only here-say on what his book claims to be true.

I feel he doesn't have enough tangible evidence to prove his theory.

Although the theory itself could be plausible, there's just no evidence.

Previously, Baigent has captured readers' imaginations with his provocative non-fiction work "Holy Blood, Holy Grail," in which he claimed Jesus was married. Now, while in the middle of a highly-publicized lawsuit with the publishers of "The Da Vinci Code" for copyright infringement, Baigent has an even more controversial premise that challenges much of what we know about Jesus: What if Jesus survived the crucifixion

The Jesus Papers

www.msnbc.msn.com...


As romantic as the idea seems, I feel it based on a lot of 'maybes & what ifs'.

Anyone feel there is any truth to his ramblings?

[edit on 3-4-2006 by Grailkeeper]

Did they not stick a spike into the side of Jesus to ensure that he was dead? Not matter how drugged up you are, that's still gotta hurt?!

Sonds like an interesting book, might give it a read sometime! I enjoyed Holy Blood Holy Grail and the Da Vinci Code.

Thats one of the counter points the interviewer made ( can't remember the name). Whether or not he was drugged, a stab to the side would not help the ordeal.

One interesting point he did mention, and I haven't investigated the validity of it yet, is that most of the people that were crucified on the cross would last for days (2-3) before succumbing to death. Whereas Jesus only lasted hours.

What you mean there's no evidence? There's plenty of evidence that Jesus could have survived. The people in Kashmir talk of Jesus coming to them in 30 AD, same here Jesus supposedly died.

www.alislam.org...

Can also do a search on google for more information. Try The Tomb Of Jesus.

Originally posted by DodgeG1
Did they not stick a spike into the side of Jesus to ensure that he was dead?

The Spear of Destiny, also known as the Spear of Longinus and the Heilige Lance — Holy Lance — is one of the most important Christian relics of the Passion of Jesus Christ. As first described in John 19:31-37, the Spear was used by a Roman soldier (Gaius Cassius, later called Longinus) to pierce the side of Christ as he hung on the cross. The Spear, bathed in the blood of the Lamb and playing a significant role in the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy, is believed to have acquired tremendous mystical power. The first sign of that power was the purported healing of Gaius Cassius’s failing eyesight by blood from the wound. The centurion later become an early convert to Christianity.

The Spear subsequently passed through a multitude of hands, coming into the possession of many of Europe’s most important political and military leaders, including Constantine I, Alaric (the Visigoth king who sacked Rome in the year 410), Frankish general Charles Martel, Charlemagne, Frederick of Barbarossa, and Frederick II. A leader who possessed the Spear was said to be invincible; Charlemagne and Frederick of Barbarossa were undefeated in battle until they let the Spear fall from their hands. A legend arose that whoever claimed the Spear “holds the destiny of the world in his hands for good or evil.”

As a young man Adolf Hitler was fascinated by the Spear of Destiny, which he first saw displayed in the Hofsburg museum in Vienna, Austria in 1909. Hitler was familiar with the legend of the Holy Lance. His interest in the relic was further amplified by its role in the 1882 opera Parsifal — by Hitler’s favorite composer, Richard Wagner — which concerned a group of ninth-century knights and their quest for the Holy Grail. Hitler’s fascination with the Spear was pivotal in sparking his interest in the occult, which gave birth to his ideas on the origins and purpose of the Germanic race and contributed to his belief in his own destiny as a world conqueror.

On October 12, 1938, not long after the German annexation of Austria, Hitler ordered the S.S. to seize the Spear and other artifacts from Vienna. They were taken by train to Nuremberg, where they were stored in St. Katherine’s Church. The Spear remained in St. Katherine’s until 1944, when it was moved to a specially constructed vault beneath the church, built in secret and at great expense, intended to protect it and the other stolen relics from Allied bombs. Nuremberg was captured by Allied troops in April of the following year. The vault was subsequently discovered by American Army officers. The Spear was confiscated by American forces on the afternoon of April 30, 1945, less than two hours before Hitler’s suicide in his underground bunker in Berlin. Like the Spear’s previous owners, Hitler perished after the relic was taken from him.


ourworld.cs.com...

I have more information not just about his supposed fake death but he was married with kids also apparently. The thread below is very interesting and it gets you thinking!

www.trunkerton.fsnet.co.uk...

Between Neale Donnald Walsch and the author of holy blood holy grail a very big turn around is apon us.

People are now begining to have the guts to come out and ask questions in search of the TRUTH!

I left the Catholic faith because it's teachings are out of date! I do not mean to cause other Catholics any offence. Religions are going to have to change soon because people need answers.

[edit on 05012005 by Earth Angel]

The problem with him being drugged is that there isn't anything from that time that would've made him appear to be dead. People usually base this story on the fact that he was given some sour wine to drink, and then suppose that the sour wine was some crazy magic potion that makes a person stop breathing, have their heart stop beating, stop all muscle movement, etc. Another oddity that is cited is that, in the gospels, when he is pierced with a lance, water gushes out. The romans were used to crucifying people and they tended to not screw up.

Also, if he was alive after crucifiction, I tend to suspect that the apostles would talk to each other about it, and we'd have letters stating as such. I also suspsect that they wouldn't go around saying 'he's comming back', or at least that he wouldn't've returned very soon if he was just in hiding. Heck, he'd probably be the one doing the evangelizing in rome, not peter or paul or anyone else.

Originally posted by fattyp

Originally posted by DodgeG1
Did they not stick a spike into the side of Jesus to ensure that he was dead?

The Spear of Destiny, also known as the Spear of Longinus and the Heilige Lance — Holy Lance — is one of the most important Christian relics of the Passion of Jesus Christ. As first described in John 19:31-37, the Spear was used by a Roman soldier (Gaius Cassius, later called Longinus) to pierce the side of Christ as he hung on the cross. The Spear, bathed in the blood of the Lamb and playing a significant role in the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy, is believed to have acquired tremendous mystical power. The first sign of that power was the purported healing of Gaius Cassius’s failing eyesight b
y blood from the wound. The centurion later become an early convert to Christianity.

ourworld.cs.com...

FattyP - Thanks for this link, Looks very interesting, I've given it a quick scan through but I will read it more in depth later! I don't want to take over this thread with questions on the spear as it's suppose to be about Jesus Papers. But I'll probably U2U with a few questions if that's ok? Nice avatar by the way! Give me sight, Behond sight!

Jesus did survive the crucifixion. He was ressurrected three days later.


www.leaderu.com...

The problem with him being drugged is that there isn't anything from that time that would've made him appear to be dead.

Beladona, Mandrake, and various opiates come to mind



Also, if he was alive after crucifiction, I tend to suspect that the apostles would talk to each other about it, and we'd have letters stating as such.

True, IF they were part of the plan. What if only an inner circle say the close relatives of the rabbi knew. Joseph to pay off Pilate,healers from the theraputate.

Or What if as is contended in the Koran and esle where the Rabbi was never on the cross? A Substitute or perhaps
a TWIN? it is clearly stated that the event was only seen "from Afar off." the only ones close enough to actually
see and know were Roman Soldiers. And after witnessing the flogging of other soldiers for things like disobeying orders
they aint gonna talk especially with orders from the easily bought Pilate

whadayawant, that link is just to a page saying that the gospels are to be taken as accurate historical accounts.

Beladona, Mandrake, and various opiates come to mind

This will stop breating, stop the heart, knock the person into a coma, and paralyse every muscle in the body??

What if only an inner circle say the close relatives of the rabbi knew

I agree that these things don't disqualify it, but they just don't make sense. He's alive, his prosetelytes are going around saying 'he will come back', but then he doesn't ever come back???

A Substitute or perhaps a TWIN?

Also possible, but the story here is that he was given a drug that made him appear dead.

And after witnessing the flogging of other soldiers for things like disobeying orders
they aint gonna talk especially with orders from the easily bought Pilate

But they did talk, they even martyred themselves over the whole thing. But the leader is hiding in a hut somewhere and won't show himself for the revolution??? Not immpossible, I agree, but it just seems so unlikely that it speaks against it.

Originally posted by DodgeG1
Did they not stick a spike into the side of Jesus to ensure that he was dead? Not matter how drugged up you are, that's still gotta hurt?!

Sonds like an interesting book, might give it a read sometime! I enjoyed Holy Blood Holy Grail and the Da Vinci Code.

you made me laugh with the way you said that
... you are right... Jesus was beaten, whipped, had his beard turned off his face, had his legs broken has it was the "law " of the cruxifixon ritual, to assure the cruxified person would sufucate and linger faster,...and after 6 hours of hanging on the cross, one of the shoulders drove a spear throw his side and water came out...that means the protective pounch that surrounds the heart was pierced...

now if some dude wants to believe that after all that Jesus survide, let him... the problem is he presents no proof to his theory... except for a document that he himself admits to have never seen, but that SOMEONE TOLD him it exists....

sooo.. Christians are dumb ignorant pathetic ppl because they believe the Bible is God's word, and that Jesus died for their sins with "no proof" except for their faith, and the Bible itself,...but this guy is a brilliant genious because he wrotte a book based on a documnet he never saw.... hmmmmm.. go figure


i have read comments here that make the cruxifiction seem like a piece of cake...??? LOL...i wonder how long would any of us last if we were cruxified??

Most cruxified ppl lingered for days, becasue they ahd not receive the bruatl beating Jesus did... According to the Bible not only he was whipped for hours, he had his beard torn of his face.... so how exactly and when did he get those so called "pretend your dead drugs" ?

Oh i gte it ... they were injected throu the whipp ?

[edit on 3-4-2006 by BaastetNoir]

If Jesus didn't die, and didn't change his appearance, how do we explain this.
And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not it was Jesus. John 20:14

But when the morning was now come, Jesus stood on the shore; but the disciples knew not that it was Jesus. John 21:4

Jesus was, Bill is (see my thread about Bill the homeless man.) After the resurection, when does Jesus leave earth? He would have been around in 45 AD, but didn't look like Jesus, or go by that name. And Jesus was a man, who ate, drank, bled and died for our sins. Doesn't make much sense if he was wounded for our sins, does it? Jesus is here on earth today. He's been on earth since the beginning, and will be on earth to the end. The Alpha, and the Omega. Jesus said he was the Son of God, and the Son of Man. Well, we are all God's children, and Jesus was the Son of Mary Magdalene. Question the Bible's accuracy if you want. But what Jesus taught is what is important.

Originally posted by Prot0n
What you mean there's no evidence? There's plenty of evidence that Jesus could have survived. The people in Kashmir talk of Jesus coming to them in 30 AD, same here Jesus supposedly died.

I did not read everything in your link... but what I did read doesn't PROVE anything. I still say there is no TANGIBLE evidence one can attain to .

What you provided in your link, can be interpeted/mis-interpeted to suit a lot of theories.
I have not read anywhere of a persons confession or knowledge of Jesus not dying on the cross that day.


(if you can point our a few excerpts to substantiate your'e claim, that would be great - Too much to try and weed through)

I agree with you, Grailkeeper. I saw a show on History channel I think, or maybe A&E. Anyway, it talked about the Baigent and his false information from other sources. Baigent, et al put it in their book, without researaching it and it turned out to be bougs. So I question how good of a researcher Baigent is.
Holy Blood, Holy Grail was shown to be falsehoods. So why would I believe his new book?
To the guy that said Jesus's message is the important thing, I agree.

-Forestlady

Originally posted by Nygdan
The problem with him being drugged is that there isn't anything from that time that would've made him appear to be dead. People usually base this story on the fact that he was given some sour wine to drink, and then suppose that the sour wine was some crazy magic potion that makes a person stop breathing, have their heart stop beating, stop all muscle movement, etc. Another oddity that is cited is that, in the gospels, when he is pierced with a lance, water gushes out. The romans were used to crucifying people and they tended to not screw up.

Have you ever seen "The Serpent and the Rainbow"? It's based on a true story about a guy who went into Haiti and found the drug that makes people into "zombies". What the drug does is exactly what you describe in the above paragraph. It's made from puffer fish I believe. Do puffer fish swim in the oceans over there?

Also, if he was alive after crucifiction, I tend to suspect that the apostles would talk to each other about it, and we'd have letters stating as such. I also suspsect that they wouldn't go around saying 'he's comming back', or at least that he wouldn't've returned very soon if he was just in hiding. Heck, he'd probably be the one doing the evangelizing in rome, not peter or paul or anyone else.

But that wouldn't make him the messiah if he/they did that.

edit: fixed quote tags

[edit on 3-4-2006 by Griff]

Originally posted by Griff
Have you ever seen "The Serpent and the Rainbow"?

Bill Pullman rules.

It's made from puffer fish I believe. Do puffer fish swim in the oceans over there?

Not that I am aware of, and the drug doesn't work quite like that. That movie was fictional.

But that wouldn't make him the messiah if he/they did that.

Why? Also, what good is it being the messiah if you have to hide and pretend to be dead?

If there was a cult that crossed the world that was ready for you to 'come back', wouldn't you, you know, come back? At least for the shicksas? I mean, Magdalene might've been a skilled prostitute, but, a whole cult of people waiting for you to return from the dead, ka-ching!

It's made from puffer fish I believe. Do puffer fish swim in the oceans over there?

Not that I am aware of, and the drug doesn't work quite like that. That movie was fictional.
*******

Nygdan, I haven't seen the movie. But it is true that puffer fish are used by voodoo practitioners in the Caribbean for it's zombie effect. It can indeed make a person look completely dead. My voodoo-practicing friends tell me that, my biologist husband tells me that and I saw it on History channel or some such.
Don't know if they were in Jesus area at that time or not.

-Forestlady

Originally posted by Nygdan
But that wouldn't make him the messiah if he/they did that.

Why? Also, what good is it being the messiah if you have to hide and pretend to be dead?


Most people have believed that he had died or left the Earth of thousands of years, and it has worked out very well...see?

-- Boat

Originally posted by Grailkeeper
Author, Michael Baigent, has introduced a new book to follow his previous "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" called 'The Jesus Papers'.

Now it makes sense to me. I was wondering why he was suing Dan Brown for infringement. (when he knows well you can’t copyright ideas, or his own book wouldn’t exist either) So why did he sue?

Publicity stunt!

He got his name in the limelight with a frivolous lawsuit, why to sell another book. (this is just a theory of course)