ID Cards Compulsory in UK by 2010 - Official

Don't be so uptight about it AdamJ.

If we're to consider some of the other 'extreme' circumstances so seriously why not this one too?

Of course we should have a self-destruct button - on everything! - just in case 'we' are invaded and occupied.......you know it makes sense.

most ridiculous question ive ever heard.
especially the coup bit.

why cant they stick to serious questions

Actually i think it's a good point. When people talk about self destruct on this sytem it usually involves magnetism though lol. I doubt they would use high explosives.

I think it's worth considering, although a coup in this country is kind of doubtful. We aren't 'oppressed' in the traditional manner and the British public i think would be a little hard to get on side with a coup. Well unless some clever, mentally scarred, masked individual cares to start one?

I do like that film V for Vendetta .

Coups are more likely in this country than invasion.

so what if we are invaded, and a foreign power gets hold of the NIR?
they have a load of names and addresses. So what?
I dont understand.

i have trouble thinking of more extreme events.
ok what if there is an alien invasion in 2010 and they get hold of this database, what are we gonna do?
i mean give me a break

[edit on 13-4-2006 by AdamJ]

[edit on 13-4-2006 by AdamJ]

Lol yeah ok it's a stupid point, but if politicians were not making stupid points then what would they do? I think that this is maybe a desperate attempt to find another thing wrong with it. They should concentrate on the issues that matter, arguements like this make the whole anti ID card discussions sound stupid.

right im confused. is it a good point or a stupid point.

just to check you agree this is stupid as well?

At the start i read it quick and didn't think, which is unusual for me by the way. Now looking at it it seems kind of stupid.

You guys have it all wrong.

It's a fantastic point.

.....and with quality 'thinking' opposition like that from the tory party we can all rest easy!

Just to reiterate my position on ID cards

I am 100% against them

I feel they are an invasion of privacy

I am uncomfortable with the idea of a centralised database under the control of the government

I think they are part of a hidden agenda. This may be the talked about microchipping of the population by 2020. It may not - I keep an open mind on such matters. Whatever - they are a stepping stone

They do not have public backing and yet the law has been passed making the compulsory for people who renew their passports. I find this un-democratic. Hopefully this status will be reversed by mass non-compliance

With my 'conspiracy hat' on this is clear evidence of the 'hidden hand' at work

With my 'mainstream hat' on - another example of the government doing what they want and listening to business rather than people

What do you think sminkey? On the surface you don't appear to have an issue with the ID card scheme but you are a member of a conspiracy forum so I wonder what your opinions are on the possible existance of a secret world government/organisation?

The point raised by the MP regarding a 'self-destruct' on the National Information Register may appear stupid, but it makes the point very well that it in unsafe to have a National Information Register with all our info in one convenient place.

True, it is unlikely we will be invaded, but always remember that Hitler came to power under the lawful democratic process - who knows what future governments will do with our info?

I came across this report from 2005 from the London School of Economics and Political Science. I urge you to read the full webpage

Sorry about the long quote, points 9 and 10 are definately worth reading though

Ten Key Uncertainties over the ID card project -All data relate to the first ten years operation

The ID cards themselves

1. How much will the scheme cost the UK?
Our 'best case' scenario is that it will cost around £10.6 billion (very roughly £170 per card and passport) though some of this cost may be absorbed into government budgets and passed on through tax. If the scheme is fully integrated into government IT systems this cost may increase considerably. Worst case: 19.2 billion, with a proportionately higher unit price per person.

2. How often will the cards or the biometrics on them need to be renewed?
Best case: once in 10 years for everyone. Worst case: once in five years for everyone. Median: some people (for instance, some elderly or ill people) will need to renew their biometrics every 5 years or more; some others will need to renew cards because of personal circumstance changes; but other people can go 10 years.

3. How often will ID cards be lost or damaged and need to be replaced?
Best case: Loss and damage will be the same as for passports. Worst case: More problems than with passports because ID cards are in use much more.

The ID card service

4. How difficult will it be to initially enroll people on the ID card scheme?
Best case: People flock to enroll speedily and there is no tail-end of resisters. Worst case: People need extensive chasing, some people resist cards to the end, and enrollment is slow.

5. How straightforward is it to verify people's identities and to enforce compliance with ID cards? How costly will it be to make corrections and re-enroll people in the ID card scheme?
Best case: No verification problems, few corrections, simple re-enrollment. Worst case: Significant problems with verifications, more corrections, difficulties checking other databases; enforcement is more costly because of citizen resistance, and re-enrollment is somewhat more complex.

Public affairs aspects

6. To what extent will the public accept the government's proposals?
Best case: people come to embrace the government's scheme, seeing benefits in having an ID card backed by a Register. Worst case: a mass campaign of non-cooperation that creates unbearable pressures on the system with consequent financial cost.

7. To what extent will there be civil liberties and privacy implications in the scheme?
Best case: government is able to maintain strict protection of data on the register. Cards use secure technologies to limit the threat of data misuse. Worst case: the scheme suffers from "function creep" to the extent that a card becomes an internal passport without which a person cannot function.

8. Will disabled people suffer hardship and discrimination through the system's operation?
Best case: government recognizes the challenges that face many disabled people in relation to biometrics, and incorporates technology to meet and support these problems. Worst case: to rein in costs the government buys cheap technology that inherently disadvantages disabled people, resulting in severe day-to-day problems for them, for instance, possible denial of service and loss of dignity.

Security

9. Are there any security concerns about the system?
Best case: the security of personal data remains much as it is in the current environment. Worst case: if intruders or hackers could compromise security, then large numbers of identity records are at risk.

10. Is there a risk that new kinds of ID fraud could arise from cards coming into pervasive use?
Best case: No new ID fraud. Worst case: Some new, high tech ID fraud develops, with greater costs for those citizens affected. Successful identity theft of a person's biometric data would mean that their fingerprints or iris scans are permanently in the hands of criminals, with little hope of revoking them.

source

Security

9. Are there any security concerns about the system?
Best case: the security of personal data remains much as it is in the current environment. Worst case: if intruders or hackers could compromise security, then large numbers of identity records are at risk.

10. Is there a risk that new kinds of ID fraud could arise from cards coming into pervasive use?
Best case: No new ID fraud. Worst case: Some new, high tech ID fraud develops, with greater costs for those citizens affected. Successful identity theft of a person's biometric data would mean that their fingerprints or iris scans are permanently in the hands of criminals, with little hope of revoking them.

Hey thanks for finding that, those are two of the main points i have been making. The problem is that hackers like high security systems. The reason they hack things like military computers is because they get bored of the simplicity of buisness and university computers. What could be a more challenging hack then a database like that which will be protected with every safeguard they can muster? It's incredibly attractive to the hacker mentality.

The biometric copying is the scariest part and i provided a link on fingerprint copying. On the news a little while back a company that makes Iris scanners said they had developed software to detect lenses. The spokesperson did add that the software isn't perfect and that people will find a way around it eventually.

ID fraud as it stands was originally a high class crime, the best criminals did it. Then once the way of accomplishing it was passed down it became cheaper and easier to do. Criminals of all classes and intelligence could get a hold of it, the same will happen with Id cards i believe. If you think about it, the technology will become more available to the mainstream because everyone will be using it. Once someone has the technology they can copy, dupe and do whatever else they wish to do with it.

ID cards are a waste of money and time and although they may prevent ID theft for a few years, the criminals will find a way around it. Then it will become widespread again. We will end up with crime rising, people unable to prove it wasn't them and less privacy then before.

What's the point?

ID cards are a waste of money and time and although they may prevent ID theft for a few years, the criminals will find a way around it. Then it will become widespread again. We will end up with crime rising, people unable to prove it wasn't them and less privacy then before.

What's the point?

Exactly - it has the potential to create more crime, not less. The only thing it will guarantee to help is the ability to track people. God help us the day it is linked to your bank cards!

CCTV + Tesco Loyalty Card + ID Card = 1984 !

There was news last year when a government minister came out and admitted they had been deliberately over-hyping the identity card and its benefits and that really it wasnt of much use.
Down the memory hole though as 6 months later nothing changes, nobody mentions it.

Originally posted by alienanderson

The point raised by the MP regarding a 'self-destruct' on the National Information Register may appear stupid, but it makes the point very well that it in unsafe to have a National Information Register with all our info in one convenient place.

True, it is unlikely we will be invaded, but always remember that Hitler came to power under the lawful democratic process - who knows what future governments will do with our info?

No i dont agree, its no more unsafe in the hands of Al-Qaeda than it is our government. Its just a list of names and addresses in a centralised database. Hows that unsafe. The government already know where you live, if they wanna come get you they can with or without an NIR.
Although i admit its usefull for extermination once they have race and religion etc.

The thing that worries me is that they admit there is an NIR but not that there is a WIR (world). Thats all hush hush still.
Think about it though, if they are going to use it for global air travel, they have to be able to network the databases all around the world, so you already know inside it has to exist, even if you dont want to accept that its underground in Colorado Spings.

The reason these cards are to be "forced" on us IMO is not so much the data basing of our DNA, or the prevention of terrorism (it can't). But monitoring our every movement via RFID tags placed inside the card.
As far as i know the government hasn't denied or accepted the possibility of such but I'm sure it wouldn't be to hard to convince the majority of the population that they're just used for the sake of convenience. In other words, you dont have to worry about getting the card out of your wallet every time you just have to stand close to a particular device. Such devices could easily be placed inside lampposts or cable boxes. Along with the purposed alternative to the road tax. Where by you're charged according to where and what time you drive your car it's not too hard to imagine our every movement being recorded and monitored.

Bman,

The issuing of machine-readable travel documents will take place in three distinct waves – first ePassports, then National IDs and finally Visas - and 2006 will see the creation of the infrastructure to support this major shift. Such a revolution could be viewed merely as a consequence of the mandatory implementation of a relatively narrow project, but in reality the introduction of electronic travel documents worldwide will pave the way towards the much broader market penetration of RFID and biometric technology in the areas of citizen ID and eGovernment projects.

source

Hi Bman and welcome

You have correctly added another side to this debate - the rapid recent surge in RFID tagging of everyday items

If there is a secret agenda of widespead tracking of the population, RFID technology is certain to have a large part to play

The widespread use of mobile phones currently makes it possible, but not everyone has these and the tracking can be stopped by removing the battery (but not by simply powering down, however)

Compulsory ID cards with RFID embedded would make everyone trackable

I forgot about that road tax scheme you mention - what a joke that would be! To pay to have a GPS black box in your car for the purpose of paying tax!!

Originally posted by alienanderson
What do you think sminkey? On the surface you don't appear to have an issue with the ID card scheme but you are a member of a conspiracy forum so I wonder what your opinions are on the possible existance of a secret world government/organisation?

- It's a very comple issue but in short I'd say I'm not a supporter of the idea of a 'NWO/World Government'.

Clearly there are (and have been for centuries - even millennia with the various Kingdoms, Empires and states there have been) informal and formal contacts/links/cooperation between governments/states/corporations, for very obvious and sensible reasons, but that is not the same thing as some propose.

IMO some shared or common values aren't 'NWO'.

......and I'm sorry but I can't help thinking way too much 'credit' is given by those who insist this kind of 'control' is going.

I have been involved in British politics to a small degree and I have met some of the people in British politics supposedly 'in control' (including Government Ministers).
Whether you want to believe it or not the simple truth is that 'they' do not have the kind of vast power or have grand control some imagine they do......

......and if they did the plain truth is that they'd be a hell of a lot more 'successful' (within their own context) than they are.

My own view is that (having grown up during the worst of the NI 'troubles' in NI) ID cards may well help counter terrorist groups and criminal conspiracies.
I think they will cut fraud (especially fraud from the taxpayer) heavily - which in turn will make them much less expensive and far more affordable that the current estimates suggest.

On the other hand they aren't a panacea, they do appear to have possible flaws (although this is not certain given that the 'systems' themselves have yet to be fully devised along with their proceedures for use) and they will not be a perfect 'solution' to every and anything anyway.

They could also be abused if 'we' are not careful enough to enact safeguards.
But I think 'we' will......and those 'we' don't put in place straight away 'we' will do in time as the 'system' evolves.
These 'systems' always 'evolve' and 'we' always modify them with experience.

In the end ID cards will either be of help, have tangible value and gather and sustain the support of a majority of the general public
or they won't
in which case, like the once 'flagship policy' that was the poll tax, they will be ditched as a damaging waste of time and effort.

But I'm sorry if I do not and can not accept it is the dawn of anti-democracy and a fascist Britain some want to imagine it to be.
I've heard it all too many times before (like I said they said exactly the same kind of stuff about the Poll tax back in the mid/late 1980's).

[edit on 15-4-2006 by sminkeypinkey]

Its not ok its a joke.
Forcing you to have an entitlement card to buy and sell and travel and then taking you id card away or lowering you citizen status to stop you doing things.
Not acceptable.

Originally posted by AdamJ
Forcing you to have an entitlement card to buy and sell and travel and then taking you id card away or lowering you citizen status to stop you doing things.

- I'm sorry but where, outside of the feverish imagination of a handful, did anyone ever suggest any of this then, hmmmmm?

If it was ever policy anywhere by any British party you might have a point but it isn't and it isn't going to be.

Unless you can prove different................?

[edit on 15-4-2006 by sminkeypinkey]

well there is a reason they originally called them entitelment cards.

but
1. if i was saying 5 years ago i dont want id cards, youd be saying "oh ridiculous where did anyone suggest such a thing"

2. you really know this will lead to that position. its the only possible outcome. you will need it for everything, so you will need it to buy and sell, and then they are going to be able to control you with it.

Its an entitlement card. be a good citizen and you can have your rights.