India connection to origin of Judaism?

Islam and Judiasm cannot be the same nor have the same God. Nor the same origins. THey can have the same Father in Abraham..no problem but they cannot be the same origin. Not possible.

I too dont have a problem with Islam being from the moon god of the Koresh tribe from which Mohamad originated. That is thier buisness.

I have known for years ..even before 9/11 that Islam ..the core doctrine is that it is and always has been intended to be spread by the sword. This is not new..it simply is not known by most in the West. Here in the West most of us are so dumb about almost everything ...that we are easily blindsided by the nature of many things because we look at them through the prism of fake television and experts.
What most westerners dont know is that Islam was on the move very early in its inception and creation ...invading Europe in the Late 600s AD and intno the early 700s AD. They were finally stopped at the Battle of Tours, France in 732AD by Charles Martel and his army. This history is not taught to most Westerners for good reason. They must remain ignorant of this and feel guilty for being Westerners. This invasion was some 300 years before any Crusades.

While I dont agree with the Crusades or their purpose ..I am not ignorant of what constitutes a Religion of Peace. You will never be able to sell me that concept. Ever!!

To most people ..unthinkingly peace means a abscence of strife...this is not the case for believers. Peace to a believer means something entirely different. This also ..is how I know that Islam is not a Religion of Peace.

Mark Gabriel makes it quite clear in his book "Islam and Terror " as to how they are instructed to carry this out and it has been done in recent times.
The strife in Algeria is a textbook example of how they intend to carry this out. Egypt also.

I agree..it is not in the name of ones God..but the practice..the doctrine..also the fruit it produces. Use any name you want..but what is the doctrine and the fruit it produces.

ELMO777...the problem with the Dutch Journalist is that this is happening entirely to much through out the world. More frequently too. Always the same pattern...from a religion of Peace.
This guy in Pakistan..the convert from Islam ..finds himself under Shirq...just like Mark Gabriel did for converting to Christianity. YOu dont find this among the Hebrews or Christians either. You dont get a death penalty for converting. This too happens all to often in a religion of Peace.

YOu dont need to get me started on the Hebrews either. I know enough about the Hebrews to post alot on here too. As far as I am concerned they both deserve each other if they want to fight it out ..let them. The Hebrews and the Palestenains. We need to stay out of it.

Nevertheless...the post is about possible India origins of Judiasm. I dont think this is possible for the reasons stated above in previous posts.

Thanks ELMO777 for your posts,
Orangetom

This is my last post on this thread because the thread is about indian origins of judaism(which is bs)and we've wandered off the path, so if youd like to discuss similarities and differences between Islam and Judaism then U2U me orangetom1999

quote by orangetom1999
"Islam and Judiasm cannot be the same nor have the same God. Nor the same origins. THey can have the same Father in Abraham..no problem but they cannot be the same origin. Not possible. "

I never said the 2 religions could be the same but...
they do have the same God, it is a well established FACT that Christianity, Judaism and Islam share the same God.

Another well established FACT is that as a youth, Mohammed travelled with the trading carvans from Mecca to Syria where he had come under the influence of Jewish and Christian teachings.

If Mohammed was given the recital (Quaran) by the angel Gabriel, which is what Muslims beleive, then he was given the Quaran by a messenger of the 1 true God, whether you call him Allah or Jehovah or Yahweh dosnt matter.

If as you agree that Islam and Judaism share the same father, then they automaticly share the same origin, they are just branches of the same tree.

Speaking of trees... you cant see the woods for the trees.

So you see it is very possible.





[edit on 3-4-2006 by ELMO777]

[edit on 3-4-2006 by ELMO777]

Guys, I havnt heard anything in Indian Scriptures about Judism or Christ visiting India. Are there any links on the net which provide information from direct Indian text that Judisim did have it roots in India. As I read in the thread someone mentioned about Judism is about following the path of Moses. This is the impression that I had, though I am not a scholar in the field of religion.

Thankyou

There are some site's that discuss it. The links I provided show some remarkable similarities, mainly in name's and key character's.

This link here show's a possibility of Jesus going to India after his "death" on the cross.

www.alislam.org...

Thanks for your posts.

First off ELMO
It is not possible for those under Judiasm , Christianity and Islam to have the same God. It is simply not possible.

It is simply that no where do you find any instruction to spread the word by the Sword Under the Law of Moses or Christianity. There simply isnt one. This is not what you find in Islam. In Islam it is convert or suffer the Sword. "May the Sword of Islam rest upon the neck of the Infidel."
There is no such instruction in The Law of Moses to spread the religion as such. Nor in the New Testament for believers.

I will remind you of the story of Jacob and Esau..from the Word. Both brothers and twins. God loved Jacob and hated Esau..from the same father. Jacob was God's child and Esau was not...from the same lump..same father....twins. They did not have the same God. This is obvious.
My own brother claims to be a athiest. I dont think so ..I think he is a Humanist. Nevertheless we have a different God. His is the god of this world and human values and systems. I belive differently and have a different God. I love my brother...he is my flesh ..but spiritually we are years and distances apart..from the same lump of clay. I have known this about my brother and this pattern too for years now.
It is that simple ELMO777.

Once again...the similarity in names...we have lots of Native Indian names of streets and some areas here in this state. I was quite surprised to learn how many states have Native Indian Names in the USA. Florida, Michigan,Iowa, Ohio, Kansas..etc etc etc. Many state towns and citys are also Native Indian names..Pontiac...for example. This is clear evidence that the Indians passed this way..not that they had influence in the religion of the people still here. This is obvious to people who can think a thing through.

Oh by the way...someone is attempting to make variations of the Native Indian religions part and parcel of what is acceptable today..to revive certain tenents of this religion..particuarly nature worship..panthiesm. Same with the all gods are the same god and the tie in to India and the philosophys of India...nature worship..panthiesm. Eastern religion. This is not accidental. This is also what the Hebrews and Christians were told to avoid. Not to do.


What it means in India..is that hebrews passed through there and left their mark. Not that the people of India had inflluence on the religion of the Hebrews. We know this because many of the practices of the religions of India are not what was told to the Hebrews by way of the Law of Moses. THey are contrary to the Law of Moses. The Hebrews are sectarian by nature. Seperated from other peoples..this is what is particularly noted by the Law of Moses.

To take this further...Modern Judiasm is not operating under the Law of Moses for which they like to claim. Under the Pharisees/Rabbis they are doing something quite different than what they were instructed in the first five books of Moses. This should be obvoius to anyone doing a study. This also means they do not have the same God as the Christains. To continue their religion they must use a different set of books which came about in written form long after the Christian era began. They use a set of books called the Talmud. A commentary on the Law of Moses. This Talmud often allows them to do things not allowed in the Law. The woman caught in adultery is textbook of the talmudic practice substituting for the Law of Moses. Women get stoned for adultery men dont. This is not Gods Law as given to Moses. Obviously they had switched gods in disobedience.
ELMO777 it is that simple ..it need not be complicated.

I am not just picking on these two groups...because the Christians have Talmuds too..commentarys. Matthew Henry, Larkin, Ironsides and others.

Learn to peel back the veneer and look underneath. Not just the standard issue man made philosophys/education which are so prevalent today.

What is known ELMO777 among those who can peel back the veneer is that there is a attempt for some years to hijack the different religions and make them the same religion ..with the same God. This is not a new technique..it was done in Ancient Times by the Conquerers of different civilizations.

I have no doubt that Mohammad was well traveled among the caravan routes...no doubt. It is simply that he arrived at a different conclusion than did the Hebrews under the Law of Moses. The same could be said of Esau particularly when you see his dealings with his brother Jacob. Esau was obviously well traveled too.

ELMO777..I do not practice Eastern Religions..or the Wisdom of the East. I do not travel to the East...up seven steps. I do however know what it means and what is implied. Whether in a philosphy class or in Religions which are also Philosophys. They can be very subtle if one is not awake or aware of the methods used or misused. History is replete with this in examples. It is just not taught for what it is. So many of us buy into the standard mantras of public education and philosophys. It is very easy to do if we have never been exposed to anything different.

Thanks to you and ProtOn for your posts.

Orangetom

www.viewzone.com...
Aristotle had said: "...These Jews are derived from the Indian philosophers;

Why take aristrotle as authority on the matter? Also, importantly, "india" today is a country with defined boundaries, "india" in the past tended to mean anything in the east. So this could simply mean that the jews are an eastern religion.

As far as the number of sources stating that the jews are indian calani or somesuch, its probable that they are all passing on the aristotle information (which, apparently, isn't actually shown to come from aristotle), rather than independantly arriving at these conclusions.

There are certain striking similarities between the Hindu god Brahma and his consort Saraisvati, and the Jewish Abraham and Sarai

Consider also that Abraham was originally Abram, and that he changed his name latter. Perhaps that idea of him changing the name because of the new faith is just a way to explain why its abraham amoung the jews, when the name was originally Abram. Which might be broken down to Ab-Ram, Ram being a vedic godman.

The theory is interesting. I would also note that the Harrapan script, which is undeciphered, is thought to be related to semitic, or at least a branch on the Elamo-Semitic language family. Perhaps, at least, we have an dravido-semitic 'culture group' that stretches from the jordan to the indus.

They dwelt from Havilah (India), by Shur, which is close to Egypt, all the way to Asshur."

This doesn't make any sense. Asshur is closer to egypt than india. It makes no sense to say from india to asshur in this way.

he saw a country of more than a thousand cities, together with villages, that had been deserted because the Indus had abandoned its proper bed

This is probably the cities of harrapan.


I'd say that the greatest stumbling block to this idea, which has the harrapans moveing into the west as a migration of people, is that there are no genetic links indicating this, and rather the genetic studies that I have seen seem to link the northern indians with the central asians.

Many of the citations in the page are from Indian authors who make 'arm waiving' arguments based on similarities of names to claim that india is the source of everything, which is common. Its a sort of indian nationalism/jingoism.

Notice that the page also states that

Indeed they are mentioned as Kassites, Hittites, Syrians, Assyrians, Hurrians, Arameans, Hyksos, Mittanians, Amalekites, Aethiops (Atha-Yop), Phoenicians, Chaldeans, and many others

Are all indians. Which, again, seems rather unlikely. They are basically saying everyone that was anyone were indian refugees, mixing the semites, like the phoenicians and chaldweans, with the properly indo-europeans, like the Hittites, and throwing in the ethiopians. That just doesn't stand up. Its too much to say that a population, from harrapa, migrated westward, and in some pulses the refugees are speaking semitic languages, and in other puleses mixed in they just happen to speak indo-euopean languages, even very basic ones, etc etc. They shoudl all be speaking one language group or language family at least.

Here's an example of how the ancient Indians identified people: The leaders were called Khassis (Kassites), Kushi (Ku#es), Cossacks (Russian military caste) Caesars (Roman ruling caste),

Again, weak etymologies. Khassis as 'indian' for leader, they migrate to...italy? And one family that ends up becoming kings, completely through their own actions, Caesar, are the same word, and in an indo-european laguage? Also, caesar is a family, not a caste, its silly to call it a caste, the people doing this study are just making really wide glosses.

And others:

Cathay (Chinese leaders), Kasheetl/Kashikeh among the Aztecs,

So this migration from northern india (er, actually, its really pakistan, but the people proposing this seem to be, agian, indian jingoists), creates judaism, the roman empire, the chinese, and the aztecs???

Minimally to have these similarities woudl require that the indian language, (and again, thats vague, are we talking about dravidian or the northern vedic languges? Something else?? what exactly??) was the base language in the extremely distant past, and that all these languages, latin, hebrew, the aztec language, are all in the same language family, which, again, is untenable.

Look at more of the very shoddy and jingioist reasoning that is accepted:

One of the shrines in the Kaaba was also dedicated to the Hindu Creator God, Brahma, which is why the illiterate prophet of Islam claimed it was dedicated to Abraham.

The kabba was really a hindu shrine to brahma, because, well, they were stupid and didn't know what was what, and just figured it was for Abraham, because that sounds like brahma.

the guy says so himself : they came from mesopotamia

No, he doesn't say that. He is telling the story as it is generally known.

What I am saying is that the customs and traditions of India are not the instructions given to the Hebrews under the Law of Moses.

Fair enough, however, the article is concerned about Abraham, in so far as he is the orginator of judaism, as being a bahraman from india, and the hebrews being, infact, a people that migrated from india. Moses would come into play much later.

The Persians are decendents of Abraham through his son Ishmael

?
Ishmael is usually presented as the father of the arabs. The persians are not arabs. Are you saying that ishmael is not the father of the arabs, but rather the persians, or that the persians are arabs?

This price was put on him by Holy men. This is not done in Judiasm.

What are you kidding???? Even in a biblical context, which I expect you'd take with authority, the jewish religious leaders, whom the pharisees were, executed a heretic, jesus.

In Islam it is convert or suffer the Sword. "May the Sword of Islam rest upon the neck of the Infidel."

Um, no. Forced conversions are not permited. The 'hack at their necks' is for when the 'nonbeleivers' have invaded your country and are trying to destroy you, then it is permissible, and encouraged, that you fight with them to the death. This is what the hebrews did. The hewbrews and arabs were both semitic nomads, they were violent, and at different points in history claimed that they worhsipped the supreme creator of the universe, whom, they say, abraham worshipped.

This thread is about Abraham actually being part of a vedic religion. What do you think about the primary arguements offered in the website, which are mostly etymological? What do you think about abraham actually being, rather than from modern iraq, originally being from modern pakistan?

To quote Jay-Z "my momma allways told me never argue with fools, cause people in the distance cant tell who is who"

this is my last post on this thread

However ..privily ..without us being aware of it ..some are trying to bring us back to the nature worship of the Indians...we call this enviornment ..our earth mother .and it is a religion. Understand??

Yes, I understand and am completely aware of what is happening, what has happened and what will happen. What started in Babylon spread all over the world. All of it ties together. Mother earth and enviornmentalism is nothing more than the goddess movement. It is a religion straight from the deceiver.

This will usher in the New Age where all religions are accepted except of course, Christianity. Peace will cover the earth as the anti Christ comes to power. And then..................

All religions have the same source...are the same religion. This is qute common once you know for what to look ..you will spot this fingerprint quite readily.

REmember this kind of stuff..this kind of pattern.

All religions are the same religion. They have the same source therefore all religions are the same religion.

The deceiver likes to leave his mark. He leaves his mark on the lie that blinds the world. Enjoyed your comments orangetom

could you please verify this with external sources because i am wondering how a moon god could create the universe?

Just do a search, Allah, moon god, false god etc. The moon god did not create the universe.

if the muslims belive in the god of ibrahim then dosnt that mean they worship the same god as jews and christians just my a differnt name?

The Muslims can trace their worldly roots to the same father, Abraham, but they can't trace back to the same God.

How is this possible??????????? God said that he would re-establish Israel as a nation and then protect Israel. This has happened and is happening.

How could the same god try to wipe Israel from the face of the earth. Not possible.

Also, why is Allah always defeated in this attempt?

if i remember my sunday school correctly (that was a long time ago), i thought christianity/jewish religion could only be reliablely traced back to afric, specifically ethiopa. how much farther does one need to go to trace it back to india?


Boots out.

I dont know if it has changed in todays geography but was not the Mid or Near East at one time in maps and such called Asia Minor??? I bring this up in the point you made ..quite well I add...that the borders of India in ancient times was quite different.
I just recall in times past where the maps used to call some of that area as Asia Minor. This may not be so today..or in todays education system.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Originally posted by orangetom1999
I dont know if it has changed in todays geography but was not the Mid or Near East at one time in maps and such called Asia Minor???

Turkey itself is usually called Asia Minor, rather than the whole of the middle east, its pretty much usually what we consider to be Turkey today in extent.
I have actually read that, in some of the gnostic christian gospels, like the gospel of st. thomas, that when they say 'india', they really mean no more than what today is iran. And of course the harrapan civilization, which that webpage from the opening refers to, is, today, solidly set in pakistan, rather than modern political india.

So yeah, that all adds a nice amount of confusion no!?

No I dont find that it adds confusion at all. What I am aware of in history is that many of these nations at different times engaged in warfare and borders changed with the success or failure of these wars.
In the mean time trade continued allowing for the political climate obviously.

THe context in which I was thinking of this was in a book I read years ago. I shall have to obtain another copy of it as it had some intresting bits of trivia of which we hardly think of today since we just to to the grocery stores and get goods without thinking much about the system which gets these goods to the shelf. We just whine alot about the prices.
Anyway this book was called. "Food in History". As I got it at a yard sale..I didnt think much of it at first until I realized by further reading that it was rich in history, traditions, and knowlege often avoided by most historical narratives written today.
What I found intresting were the tales of the caravan routes from the East. In many cultures..apparently when a new spice or such came into certain towns it was a big deal. Many came to the marketplaces to try a new spice in foods etc.. Many of these goods came across in the caravan routes. Apparently these were the interstates for goods in those days. Also it mentioned some of the towns and citys which sprung up along the caravan routes ..especially where these routes met the sea and cargos were transfered to ships bound for other destinations. Tyre was one of these citys if I recall correctly. There were others.
Anyway..Nygdan...I found this very intresting and different facet or take on history..well worth the read...who would have thought so and all out of a yard sale book.
WE take so much for granted today ..when we got to the grocery stores..most of us hardly think this was not the way things were ..and not that far back historically.

No..I dont find it confusion... I find it intresting. Thanks for your post.

Orangetom

What is the outcome of this disussion that we are all having. Does or will it make a difference if the roots of Judisim is or isnot in Indian culture.....

As you all would be aware, if we follow the roots to all religion, they lead to the road to God. I think from an analysis point of view great ideas and view and if that is the cause, great, but the final message would be the path to God, whichever form or religion one follows...

Originally posted by knowledge23
What is the outcome of this disussion that we are all having. Does or will it make a difference if the roots of Judisim is or isnot in Indian culture.....

Sure, I'd say so, especially if the origin of jewish monotheism is based upon a linguistic error, as the original web page seems to maintain.

Nygdan,

I agree to the point, because I cant find any hard evidence to link Judisim to Hindu religion. I guess I may be missing some point....and apologies that I could not contribute to this thread.

?

I wasn't saying that you weren't making a controbution, if I understand your jist correctly here.

Anyway, I shoudl clarify that I ma not in the least be convinced by the 'evidence' that that page puts up. It boils down to jingoism and poorly constructed and vacuous folk etymologies.

Nygdan,

I have sent you a U2U. It will explain more. Thankyou for the post though.

Cheers

Knowledge23

In response to orangetom1999, who has taken the coward's way out to avoid defending his poorly laid out arguments from proper scrutiny, I have some questions about his basic "proofs" against the well documented fact that Islam, Christianity and what we now call Judaism all claim to worship the same monotheistic god; that they have the same origins.

I am also not claiming that I know whether religions of the world all stem back to one source, but being torn between agnosticism and wicca I personally believe that we all worship the same god in myriad facets, some contradictory in the same way in which life is contradictory. This may not be true, obviously, if I believe I have the right to disagree with his views than he must have the same right to disagree with mine. However I do not accept his "proof" that they could not have stemmed from first Mesopotamia and, possibly other religions, based on the fact that the God of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic religion told others to distance themselves from the others.

Did not Orthodoxy and Catholocism split in the Great Schism? One side is believes that they other is wrong, and they do not take part in the same rituals or ceremonies, but does orangetom1999 deny that THEY have the same roots? I know that the analogy is not perfect, since they have no Holy Doctrine telling them that the other side is wrong, but it serves enought that reasonable people who are not blinded by bias can see where I am coming from.

Speaking of blinded, why do many on this thread continue to use the phrase "The great lie that blinds the world"? I could very well decide to use the term to describe Christianity, Judaism, or any religion that says that its way is the only way. Can you prove that it is a lie?

Well, that's all for my rant. I was very confused by some things in this topic, especially the continued use of the "blinds the world" phrase, and I feel that pro-pantheism speakers were largely under-represented in this discussion. I believe that many dismissed it off hand, and many more thought it was a conspiracy, but I did once read some very interesting conjecture on this site, (the main reason I began posting again today) that claimed that Hindu was the mother of all religions, and it was not that hard to swallow.

All praise the Sun and Moon God and Goddess!!!

Blessed Be...