Peter or Judas?

Originally posted by Cearbhall
Wow, I hit a gold mine with this question!

Here is something, do you think Judas was trying to push Jesus on becoming the warrior Messiah as the Jews wanted by having him arrested? Jesus then would of used his heavenly power to smite the opressors and driving the Romans out of Israel, Judas thought. Jesus called his bluff. Judas couldn't take the betrayal and ultimately the Crucifixion of his friend and Christ. Any thoughts on this?

Helen,
As a practising Catholic, trully Peter is prime over all apostles the thought of him being equals is from the Orthodox and later the Protestant, human not divine, view point.
Here is some examples of Peter being prime:

Matt. 16:17 - Peter alone is told he has received divine knowledge by a special revelation from God the Father.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus builds the Church only on Peter, the rock, with the other apostles as the foundation and Jesus as the Head.

Matt. 16:19 - only Peter receives the keys, which represent authority over the Church and facilitate dynastic succession to his authority.

John 21:15 - in front of the apostles, Jesus asks Peter if he loves Jesus "more than these," which refers to the other apostles. Peter is the head of the apostolic see.

John 21:15-17 - Jesus charges Peter to "feed my lambs," "tend my sheep," "feed my sheep." Sheep means all people, even the apostles.

I have more if you want.

Also in the Catholic Church, Christ is the head while his Church is his body. The Pope is, in laymans terms, a placeholder guiding us through the teaching of Christ, until His return.

and about Infallibility:

"The doctrine of papal infallibility does not mean the pope is always right in all his personal teachings. Catholics are quite aware that, despite his great learning, the pope is very much a human being and therefore liable to commit human error. On some subjects, like sports and manufacturing, his judgment is liable to be very faulty. The doctrine simply means that the pope is divinely protected from error when, acting in his official capacity as chief shepherd of the Catholic fold, he promulgates a decision which is binding on the conscience of all Catholics throughout the world. ... In order for the pope to be infallible on a particular statement, however, four conditions must apply: 1) he must be speaking 'ex cathedra' ... that is, 'from the Chair' of Peter, or in other words, officially, as head of the entire Church; 2) the decision must be for the whole Church; 3) it must be on a matter of faith or morals; 4) the pope must have the intention of making a final decision on a teaching of faith or morals, so that it is to be held by all the faithful.

An example of the Pope speaking infallibly was the Assumption of Mary, all for points were met.


[Edited on 10-12-2003 by Cearbhall]

Hi Cearbhall......
When Jesus came into the coasts of C�sarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

In the Saviour�s words quoted above, nothing is said about the supremacy of the Apostle Peter or in general about his relation-ship to the other apostles. Here, Christ is speaking about the founding of the Church.
But the Church is founded not on Peter alone.
In the Epistle to the Ephesians (2:20), the Apostle Paul, addressing the Christians, says: "[Ye] are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone"; while in the First Epistle to the Corinthians (3:10-11), the Apostle Paul, speaking about the creation of Christ�s Church, expresses it thus: "According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
For other foun-dation can no may lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ."
In the Apocalypse, where the Church is compared to a city, it says: "And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb" (Revelation 21:14).


As for the mention of the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven and the right to bind and loose, here, in the person of the Apostle Peter, the Lord is giving a promise to all the apostles - especially since He repeats the very same promise and in the same expressions with regard to all the disciples in the same Gospel according to Matthew, slightly later (8:18); and after His resurrection, Christ fulfilled this promise, having said to all the disciples: "Receive ye the Holy Ghost: whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained" (John 20:22-23).

There's more..

www.stjohndc.org...


The Orthodox Church teaches that the twelve apostles were completely equal among themselves according to their dignity, authority and grace. In a certain sense, it is possible to call the Apostle Peter the first, but the first among equals. This teaching is confirmed by the whole history of the apostles, as it is set forth in the books of the New Testament, where the full equality of the apostles among themselves is demonstrated indisputably (for example, Matthew 4:18-19; 10:1, 40; 19:28; 20:24-27; 23:8-11; Mark 10:35-37, 16:15; Luke 22:22-30 and many others); many passages demonstrate that the apostles received not only the grace of apostleship, but also the right to act by this grace in the Church, directly from Christ the Saviour, and not from the Apostle Peter (Matthew 4:18-22; Mark 1:16-20; Luke 9:1-6, John 20:21-23, and many others), and that all the apostles without exception are liable to a higher court - the Church (for example, Matthew 18:17).





[Edited on 10/13/2003 by helen670]

Hi Helen ,
I agree that the apostles all had the same graces given by them by Christ but Peter was and is special to Him. The Orthodox however got it wrong IMO in saying Peter was just and equal. Even Paul recognised Peter's authority and bent to it. Here are some more examples of how special Peter is:

Acts 1:13 - Peter is first when entering upper room after our Lord's ascension. The first Eucharist and Pentecost were given in this room.

Acts 1:15 - Peter initiates selection of a successor to Judas right after Jesus ascended into heaven, and no one questions him. Further, if the Church needed a successor to Judas, wouldn't it need one to Peter? Of course.

Acts 2:14 - Peter is first to speak for the apostles after the Holy Spirit descended upon them at Pentecost. Peter is the first to preach the Gospel.

Acts 2:38 - Peter gives first preaching in the early Church on repentance and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ.

Acts 3:1,3,4 - Peter is mentioned first as going to the Temple to pray.

Acts 3:6-7 - Peter works the first healing of the apostles.

Acts 3:12-26, 4:8-12 - Peter teaches the early Church the healing through Jesus and that there is no salvation other than Christ.

Acts 5:3 - Peter declares first anathema of Ananias and Sapphira which is ratified by God, and brings about their death. Peter exercises his binding authority.

Acts 5:15 - Peter's shadow has healing power. No other apostle is said to have this power.

Acts 8:14 - Peter is mentioned first in conferring the sacrament of confirmation.

Acts 8:20-23 - Peter casts judgment on Simon's quest for gaining authority through the laying on of hands. Peter exercises his binding and loosing authority.

Acts 9:32-34 - Peter is mentioned first among apostles and works healing of Aeneas.

Acts 9:38-40 - Peter is mentioned first among the apostles and raises Tabitha from the dead.

Acts 10:5 - Cornelius is told by an angel to call upon Peter. Angels are messengers of God. Peter was granted this divine vision.

Acts 10:34-48, 11:1-18 - Peter is first to teach about salvation for all (Jews and Gentiles).

Acts 12:5 - this verse implies that the "whole Church" offered "earnest prayers" for Peter, their leader, during his imprisonment.

Acts 12:6-11 - Peter is freed from jail by an angel. He is the first object of divine intervention in the early Church.

Acts 15:7-12 - Peter resolves the first doctrinal issue on circumcision at the Church's first council at Jerusalem, and no one questions him. After Peter the Papa spoke, all were kept silent.

Acts 15:12 - only after Peter (the Pope) speaks do Paul and Barnabas (bishops) speak in support of Peter's definitive teaching.

Acts 15:13-14 - then James speaks to further acknowledge Peter's definitive teaching. "Simeon (Peter) has related how God first visited..."

Rom. 15:20 - Paul says he doesn't want to build on "another man's foundation" referring to Peter, who built the Church in Rome.

1 Cor. 15:4-8 - Paul distinguishes Jesus' post-resurrection appearances to Peter from those of the other apostles.

Gal.1:18 - Paul spends fifteen days with Peter privately before beginning his ministry, even after Christ's Revelation to Paul.

1 Peter 5:1 - Peter acts as the chief bishop by "exhorting" all the other bishops and elders of the Church.

2 Peter 1:14 - Peter writes about Jesus' prediction of Peter's death, embracing the eventual martyrdom that he would suffer.

2 Peter 3:16 - Peter is making a judgment on the proper interpretation of Paul's letters. Peter is the chief shepherd of the flock.

Matt. 23:11; Mark 9:35; 10:44 - yet Peter, as the first, humbled himself to be the last and servant of all servants.

It looks to me that Peter was above the rest.

Helen, here is a guy that explains more about Peter and him being the rock. Here are two great articles that make it clearer for you to understand.

www.catholic.com...

www.catholic.com...

Hope this helps!

As Christians we should concentrate on our similarities and work together for the betterment of this Earth.



[Edited on 10-13-2003 by Cearbhall]

Peter and Judas are perfect examples of our freedom to choose our own path. Both were chosen by Christ to be members of his closest ring of followers. When everything was said and done Peter chose the right path, and eventually became the rock Christ told him he would be. Judas... well he committed suicide, an unpardonable sin.

Another point is that Peter did not truely know who christ was until sometime after the death of christ. One cannot deny what one does not truely know.

Judas is the worst, he selled Jesus because he hated himl and was jealous of him, that's why he only asked a few coin for his threason.

Peter only deny to know Jesus to stay alive, and that was the will of Jesus that Peter stay alive, to build the Christian church.

I wouldn't trust either of them with even my pocket change... Then again, thats the same way I feel about their current representatives (i.e. clergy), hehe....

What about my question:

Here is something, do you think Judas was trying to push Jesus on becoming the warrior Messiah as the Jews wanted by having him arrested? Jesus then would of used his heavenly power to smite the opressors and driving the Romans out of Israel, Judas thought. Jesus called his bluff. Judas couldn't take the betrayal and ultimately the Crucifixion of his friend and Christ. Any thoughts on this?

Lone,
Also the Church hasn't taught whether Judas is in Hell or heaven. We just don't know but, Jesus does say the person who did betray Him "would better if not born at all." So it is quite tanatalising to say the least.