Peter or Judas?

Which, in your opinion, had the greater sin, Peter or Judas and why? Did they both betray Jesus? Which one would you trust? What made these two different from each other?

Personally I think Peter commited the greater sin than Judas, Judas to me seemed like he had differentiating opinions from Jesus, and unfortunately those led to Jesus being Crucified. But once Judas realizes the mistake he made, in letting not only Christ die but also his friend, he takes his own life. However Peter when his friend needed him the most, denied that he was associated with Jesus three times, and he went on to become the first pope of the Roman Catholic church. There is no doubt in my mind that Judas was the lesser of the two evils.

have to agree with daeldren's good argument here.

also in the new testament there is the suggestion that christ ordered Judas to do his act, mind you each of the major gospels treats this subject differently.

what is your take on this anyways daeldren, the discussion during the last supper and comments by Christ to and about Judas as told in the various gospels?

Originally posted by daeldren
Personally I think Peter commited the greater sin than Judas, Judas to me seemed like he had differentiating opinions from Jesus, and unfortunately those led to Jesus being Crucified. But once Judas realizes the mistake he made, in letting not only Christ die but also his friend, he takes his own life. However Peter when his friend needed him the most, denied that he was associated with Jesus three times, and he went on to become the first pope of the Roman Catholic church. There is no doubt in my mind that Judas was the lesser of the two evils.

Peter did not become the first ''POPE'' in the early church!
There was no ''infallibility'' of any popes......there was no supreme leader .....Jesus Christ was the head of the church and still is....
Peter was the first among equals!
Peter was an Apostle as was the other Apostles....they all had the same equality!
It was the same up until the Schism of 1054...
The schism developed gradually. The first major breach came in the 9th century when the pope refused to recognize the election of PHOTIUS as patriarch of Constantinople.
Photius in turn challenged the right of the papacy to rule on the matter and denounced the filioque clause as a Western innovation. The mounting disputes between East and West reached another climax in 1054, when mutual anathemas were exchanged.
The sacking of Constantinople by the Fourth Crusade (1204) intensified Eastern hostility toward the West. Attempts at reconciliation at the councils of Lyon (1274) and Florence (1438-39) were unsuccessful. When the papacy defined itself as infallible (First VATICAN COUNCIL, 1870), the gulf between East and West grew wider. Only since the Second VATICAN COUNCIL (1962-65) has the movement reversed, bringing serious attempts at mutual understanding.

Judas did betray Jesus Christ with a kiss.....and then guilt made him suicide......out of his own free will...he chose that path himself.....he could have asked for forgiveness...
Peter denied Christ 3 times and then realized his mistake and apoligised .....

helen...

My read is that they committed the same sin. Peter repented.

Helen I believe that in Roman Catholic belief Peter is considered to have been thr first pope of the RC Church

Not sure about them both commiting the same sin.

Peter denied that he would or could do what Christ said he would. Then when the time came he denied Christ to preserve himself.

Judas was always a bit shady and part of the controversy is that Christ must have known this when he selected him as a disciple, thus the idea that he was preordained as the weasel traitor and Christ knew all along what was coming. On the other hand there was no doubt about Peter until the very end.

Again the differing accounts in the gospels.

Furthermore, we do not really know why Judas betrayed Christ or how he did it? When Judas understood his betrayal he killed himself. Christ did not ask for this. Peter asked Christ what he should do and again in the end Peter chose self-preservation.

Well let me add this point, the act of Judas was premeditated; Judas formed a plan and acted on it. He even accpeted payment for his actions. Under most laws this elevates the crime. Peter's acts were of the spur of the movement and were done out of fear and weakness. In my book premeditated acts are always worse than those caused by the spur of the movement.

Peter was the first pope according to the Catholic Church.

And I believe Peter committed the biggest sin due to the fact Jesus told him he would betray him and Peter, despite the warning, betrayed Jesus.

LoL, I love it, this is shaping up to be a good one folks!

Yes, a 'sin' is a sin.....but then we have Jesus Christ tell us that we can ask for forgiveness and it will be forgiven!
Pride .....confession is good for the soul....that is why people tell otherpeople of their problems ...to relieve the guilt and feel better about ourselves.....we confess the things that is on our 'conscience'.....
The words of the Apostle Paul,''For the good that I would do,I do not:but the evil that I would not, that I do.Now if I do that I would not, It is no more that I do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.(Rom. 7:19-20)
The incarnation of the Son of God was necessary for the restoration of the fallen and corrupted nature of man, to save from damnation and eternal death.
God without a doubt, could have prevented the fall of the first people, but He did not wish to stifle their freedom, because it is not in His nature to distort His own image in man.The image and likeness of God is expressed in the free will of man.
''The law of God''Archpriest Seraphim Slobodskoy.1912-1971

Originally posted by Illmatic67
Peter was the first pope according to the Catholic Church.

And I believe Peter committed the biggest sin due to the fact Jesus told him he would betray him and Peter, despite the warning, betrayed Jesus.

Illmatic,it is not ''Catholic '' church.......but Roman Catholic church......there is a difference!

And it was not always the same as what the Roman Catholic church consider to be the 'infallibility of the Pope''That is one of the major concerns of the East and West splitting at 1054.....among other changes made!

Matthew 26
14. Then one of the Twelve--the one called Judas Iscariot--went to the chief priests
15. and asked, "What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?" So they counted out for him thirty silver coins.
16. From then on Judas watched for an opportunity to hand him over.

Judas has formed the plan and has entered into a conspiracy with the chief priests to betray Jesus. Judas returns to Jesus and waits for his opportunity.

Matthew 26
46. Rise, let us go! Here comes my betrayer!"
47. While he was still speaking, Judas, one of the Twelve, arrived. With him was a large crowd armed with swords and clubs, sent from the chief priests and the elders of the people.
48. Now the betrayer had arranged a signal with them: "The one I kiss is the man; arrest him."
49. Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, "Greetings, Rabbi!" and kissed him.
50. Jesus replied, "Friend, do what you came for." Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him.

Judas completes his premeditated plan by leaving the gathering and informing the high priests of the location of Jesus and leading their thugs to Him. Premeditation always elevates a crime.

they were men and not perfect...
if an omnipotent being told me some universal truth regarding my life it is just that...
if he(Jesus) is the man people claim in perfection (in which i have faith)then he understood many things that were regardless of how you percieve them were to happen, to him, to others, and to his apostles...

"these judgements on other lives need to stop"2pac

Judas did betray Jesus Christ with a kiss.....and then guilt made him suicide......out of his own free will...he chose that path himself.....he could have asked for forgiveness...
Peter denied Christ 3 times and then realized his mistake and apologized .....

1).It is my impression that Judas was not acting of his own accord when he "betrayed" Jesus. It would appear that God had planned for his part in the crucifixion as a means to the end. It also would appear that he was, in some way, possessed and may have killed himself when he realized what he had been a part of, since he didn't know it was preordained. Therefore I don't think that he deserves the "traitor" title he has been saddled with.

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
John 6:71 He spake of Judas Iscariot [the son] of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.


John 13:21 When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.
John 13:26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped [it]. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave [it] to Judas Iscariot, [the son] of Simon.
John 13:27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
John 13:30 He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night.

2). I think that Peter was getting a little too self-righteous. He thought that he was worthy to go with Jesus anywhere, even though Jesus had said none of them could go with Him. I think God influenced Peter to humble him so that he would know that when Jesus said no one could go that meant NO ONE COULD GO! When he realized his error, he was humbled and sought forgiveness.

John 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.
John 13:36 Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards.
John 13:37 Peter said unto him, Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life for thy sake.
John 13:38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.

John 18:27 Peter then denied again: and immediately the cock crew. (this would imply that the rooster crowing was a signal for Peter to realize his folly. That means it's crow was controlled by God.)

I think that both men were acting according to a plan, that neither of them understood until after the fact. Therefore, neither of the really committed a sin or truly "betrayed" Jesus. You can't really betray a plan that is counting on that betrayal to be fulfilled.

It's a sad day when a content censor edits a Bible verse!!

[Edited on 11-10-2003 by jezebel]

Jezebel has covererd just about anything I have to say on the subject

I agree with Jezebel's comments for the most part as well, which means I agree with Toltec!!!

One point I differ on, I do not believe that Peter was in any way influenced to make the decision to deny Christ, nor do I believe that his denial was part of the grand scheme. I believe he denied Christ, but that was not a betrayal. Two different things.

Judas on the other hand I believe was turned over for the purpose of fulfilling prophecy. I also believe he had to have had something within him previous to this that allowed this to happen. Some bitterness, greed, something.

Since I do not have Roman Catholic roots, I do not tend to see sins in degrees, but if I were forced to choose who created the greater offense against Christ, I would choose Peter...because he acted solely on his own free moral agency.

Vahall that's scary

I remember when in Catholic School it was mentioned in religious class that there were issues in respect to if Peter was actually instructed by Jesus to do that. So rather than suggesting that in the future he would deny him thrice as a result of his lack of faith. He was letting him know, this would be what he needed to do so as to survive.

Any thoughts?

Wow, I hit a gold mine with this question!

Here is something, do you think Judas was trying to push Jesus on becoming the warrior Messiah as the Jews wanted by having him arrested? Jesus then would of used his heavenly power to smite the opressors and driving the Romans out of Israel, Judas thought. Jesus called his bluff. Judas couldn't take the betrayal and ultimately the Crucifixion of his friend and Christ. Any thoughts on this?

Helen,
As a practising Catholic, trully Peter is prime over all apostles the thought of him being equals is from the Orthodox and later the Protestant, human not divine, view point.
Here is some examples of Peter being prime:

Matt. 16:17 - Peter alone is told he has received divine knowledge by a special revelation from God the Father.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus builds the Church only on Peter, the rock, with the other apostles as the foundation and Jesus as the Head.

Matt. 16:19 - only Peter receives the keys, which represent authority over the Church and facilitate dynastic succession to his authority.

John 21:15 - in front of the apostles, Jesus asks Peter if he loves Jesus "more than these," which refers to the other apostles. Peter is the head of the apostolic see.

John 21:15-17 - Jesus charges Peter to "feed my lambs," "tend my sheep," "feed my sheep." Sheep means all people, even the apostles.

I have more if you want.

Also in the Catholic Church, Christ is the head while his Church is his body. The Pope is, in laymans terms, a placeholder guiding us through the teaching of Christ, until His return.

and about Infallibility:

"The doctrine of papal infallibility does not mean the pope is always right in all his personal teachings. Catholics are quite aware that, despite his great learning, the pope is very much a human being and therefore liable to commit human error. On some subjects, like sports and manufacturing, his judgment is liable to be very faulty. The doctrine simply means that the pope is divinely protected from error when, acting in his official capacity as chief shepherd of the Catholic fold, he promulgates a decision which is binding on the conscience of all Catholics throughout the world. ... In order for the pope to be infallible on a particular statement, however, four conditions must apply: 1) he must be speaking 'ex cathedra' ... that is, 'from the Chair' of Peter, or in other words, officially, as head of the entire Church; 2) the decision must be for the whole Church; 3) it must be on a matter of faith or morals; 4) the pope must have the intention of making a final decision on a teaching of faith or morals, so that it is to be held by all the faithful.

An example of the Pope speaking infallibly was the Assumption of Mary, all for points were met.


[Edited on 10-12-2003 by Cearbhall]

I think the Judas Like Helen said betrayed the Lord intentionally with a KISS, Peter in my opionion was more scared than anything denying the relationship he had with the Lord, trying to save his life. Not saying that I think what peter did was right, but I think it was done more out of fear than anything.