Iraqi residents say bodies in video from US raid

Originally posted by Beachcoma
Lets go over the news piece again, but lets go straight to the part where we seem to be stuck.

US military probes Iraq killings

The preliminary investigation established that members of two Iraqi families were indeed killed by the marines, though it described the deaths as collateral damage.

Time says there is not enough evidence to show US soldiers deliberately targeted the civilians.

Now the case has been referred for criminal investigation by the US' Naval Criminal Investigative Service to establish whether the 12 marines involved were guilty of misconduct.

Please visit the link provided for the complete story.

Again you are going in circles without answering the key question. Why did it take them so long to start making the accusations ???????

Again you are not using common sense, if someone kills a member of your family as is alleged here you would not wait months to report it,. no one would. Why can't you get that through your head?????

News BBC

"Their bodies were riddled with bullets, there was evidence that there had been gunfire inside their homes, there were blood spatters inside their homes," Bobby Ghosh, a journalist who took up the case for Time magazine, told the BBC.

"It was quite clear that these people were killed indoors, which couldn't possibly have happened if they'd been involved in a roadside blast."

An initial military inquiry found the two families had indeed been shot dead in their homes by the marines, but it described the deaths as "collateral damage".

Several American veterans of the war in Iraq have told the BBC's Newsnight programme that the marines' reaction to the roadside bomb attack in Haditha was not an isolated incident.

Specialist Michael Blake, who served in Balad, said it was common practice to "shoot up the landscape or anything that moved" after an explosion.

Another veteran, Specialist Jody Casey, who was a scout sniper in Baquba, said he had also seen innocent civilians being killed.

"Bombs go off and you just zap any farmer that's close to you", he said.

Interesting Article here at the BBC, I suggest you read it Whole.

So - what happened?

Marines investigated in Iraq `massacre'

• Ali, 76, whose left leg was amputated years ago because of diabetes, died after being shot in the stomach and chest. His wife, Khamisa, 66, was shot in the back. Ali's son, Jahid, 43, was hit in the head and chest. Son Walid, 37, was burned to death after a grenade was thrown into his room, and a third son, 28-year-old Rashid, died after he was shot in the head and chest, Rsayef and Hamza said.
  
  
• Also among the dead were son Walid's wife, Asma, 32, who was shot in the head, and their son Abdullah, 4, who was shot in the chest, Rsayef and Hamza said.
  
  
• Rsayef said those killed in the second house were his brother Younis, 43, who was shot in the stomach and chest, and the brother's wife, Aida, 40, who was shot in the neck and chest while still in bed where she was recuperating from bladder surgery. Their 8-year-old son Mohammed bled to death after being shot in the right arm, Rsayef said.
  
  
• Also killed were Younis' daughters, Nour, 14, who was shot in the head; Seba, 10, who was hit in the chest; Zeinab, 5, shot in the chest and stomach; and Aisha, 3, who was shot in the chest. Hoda Yassin, a visiting relative, was also killed, Rsayef and Hamza said.
  
  
• The only survivor from Younis' family was his 15-year-old daughter Safa, who pretended she was dead. She is living with her grandparents, Rsayef said.

Some asked how these Civilans were Killed - well here you have it.

They were shot in the Head, in the Chest, in the Back, in the Stomach, in the Neck and some were killed by Granades.

So - if we look at the Statements by the Iraqi Veterans, Specialists which told, that after a Bombs go off the Marines "shoot up the landscape or anything that moved", we see that the Marines really did that to the Two Houses full of Civilans.

And as you can see, most of them were Shot Dead by gunfire coming from Marines and not by any IED Blast, which killed one Marine, and no Iraqi Resident.

Another Civilian Massacre?

As you know, the U.S. military account is that after showing up and getting into a shootout to get into this house, the house collapsed during the shootout. People were killed either in the shootout or by the collapsing house. They left. They found four bodies and left. They found this suspect. They arrested him. And that's pretty much that story.

The other story is that the house was standing when the U.S. troops went in. They were herded into one room -- eleven people herded into one room, executed. U.S. troops then blew up the house and left.

We were talking with the police officer who was first on the scene earlier today. He explained the scene of arriving. He said they waited until U.S. troops had left the area and it was safe to go in. When they arrived at the house, it was in rubble. I don't know if you've seen the photos of the remains of the house, but there was very little standing. He said they expected to find bodies under the rubble. Instead, what they found was in one room of the house, in one corner of one room, there was a single man who had been shot in the head. Directly across the room from him against the other wall were ten people, ranging from his 75-year-old mother-in-law to a six-month-old child, also several three-year-olds -- a couple three-year-olds, a couple five-year-olds, and four other -- three other women.

Which story should we "Buy"?

If judge by the statements of the Iraqi Veterans the story is, that after the IED Blast, Marines stormed two houses, rounded up the Civilans inside and Executed them. Then they demolished the Houses and Left.

Non US media are not embedded as is the case with the US media and even not all US media are embedded, some are some aren't, at least according to a recent piece I saw on MSNBC they are not.

I'm going to have to call BS on this.

Maybe you heard propaganda in the Rush show that made you think this, but all US reporters are embedded. Give up a reference.

Originally posted by Malichai


I'm going to have to call BS on this.

Maybe you heard propaganda in the Rush show that made you think this, but all US reporters are embedded. Give up a reference.

You are only making a fool of yourself

--------

Riveria was not an embedded reporter

Riveria

Here is another

Christiane Amanpour, who made her name during the Persian Gulf War -- is considered unilateral, not embedded, and is traveling with British troops.

Source

Another Example


See what just two minutes can find you there are hundreds if not thousand more.





[edit on 3/25/2006 by shots]

shots,

I don't have the answer to that question, and neither do you. I can only theorize based on what facts are available to me now and based on past history. I've already given you my theory, which you apparantly find unacceptable. Let me reiterate it here:

Originally posted by Beachcoma
Anyway, did it ever occur to you that maybe they did complain earlier, but it took a month to actually reach a media outlet that made the information available to the public?

I'm pretty certain complaints like these occur frequently in Iraq, and I'm sure that a portion of those complaints cannot be proven or at least cannot be proven conclusively, as in this particular case. I'm also pretty certain that only a small percentage actually gets out to the MSM.

Now let me add a bit more to that. Remember the whole Fallujah white phosphorus issue? When did that event happen and how long did it take to reach the media? Took quite a while, didn't it?

So, if history is any indicator, reports of US misconduct out of Iraq take quite a while to surface on the MSM. Why is that? I think that subject merits it's own thread. However if anyone wants to answer that question here in this thread, go right ahead.

Now that I've answered your question, in fact for the second time, can you answer mine? It's in this post, final paragraph.

Remember, there's no shame in admitting you were wrong.

[edit - extra word removed]

[edit on 25-3-2006 by Beachcoma]

Originally posted by Beachcoma
Now that I've answered your question, in fact for the second time, can you answer mine? It's in this post, final paragraph.

You won't even acknowledge that it could have been an accident, collateral damage -- whatever. In fact, you keep on making it out as though it never happened. As though nobody got killed. Why is this?

Because you are expecting me to speculate is the reason I never answered it. Unlike you I will wait until the investigation is over, I thought I have made that very clear from the get go.

As for no crime in being wrong, how can I be wrong when the investigation is still on going? Again you want me to admit something is one thing even before it is not over which is ridiculous. I have said it once I will say it again, I do not care to speculate, unlike you I am waiting until all the facts are known.


[edit on 3/25/2006 by shots]

[edit on 3/25/2006 by shots]

No shots, I didn't ask you to speculate about anything. I only ask that you acknowledge that the prelims concluded that at least two Iraqi families were shot by the marines, apparently a 'collateral damage'

I know investigations are still going on, BUT they are not investigating whether it happened or it didn't happen, which is what you appear to be stuck on.



Investigations are now underway to determine whether it was accidental or deliberate.

That's why I say there's no shame in admitting you were wrong, because I see it that way, that you seem to ignore the fact that even NCIS has determined that the marines did indeed kill the civilians (but are trying to determine whether deliberate or otherwise)

I didn't ask you to speculate. I asked you why you won't acknowledge this fact -- that the marines killed iraqi civilians, and an investigation was underway to determine if it was an accident or by design.

That was the question. You say I'm going around in circles, but that's only because I've been arguing with you who appear to circle the issue.

Originally posted by shots
I have said it once I will say it again, I do not care to speculate, unlike you I am waiting until all the facts are known.

:shk:

This is uncalled for, I didn't speculate at all on the issue, I merely reiterated the facts that I get from the news reports. The only instance in this thread where I speculated was in response to your question and that was because there was no readily available answer. In fact I even acknowledged that I didn't have the answer and it was merely a theory.

[edit - awkward sentence structure fixed]

[edit on 25-3-2006 by Beachcoma]

Originally posted by Beachcoma
This is uncalled for

With that I agree. Get back to me when all the facts are known. Hell even they might change if more witnesses come forward for all anyone knows or better yet EXHUME the bodies and examine them.