Intelligently Designed but Is it Divine?

Originally posted by Prot0n
Who says the universe was "born"? It wasn't like a human conception of birth.

You did! Besides it wasn't a serious question.

Your right, it does sound ridiculous. Then again, this is how god came to be is it not? And if not, if he always just existed.. Then why is it hard to accept that perhaps there was something natural that always existed, such as the properties of quantum fluctuation's that allow for particles to pop in and out of existence in our universe.

Nothing 'can' come from nothing including any god.
Something 'cannot' come from nothing.
Time and space are themselves the creations of a superior intelligence.
Have you considered the possibility that your particles may merely be popping in and out of this dimension as opposed to out of existence?

What's this nothing that you keep mentioning? I'm unaware of an absolute nothingness. Never heard of it nor seen it.

I'm not surprised you never seen or heard absolute nothingness. It would really be 'something' if you had!

I was under the impression that you thought the idea wasn't logical. Which I assumed was the reason you said what you said. Which mean's my question wasn't out of context at all. If anything, be abit more clear next time so I know your opinion on thing's.

The idea that the universe came from nothing is what I referred to as illogical. Not the 'energy can neither be created nor destroyed, only change form' statement.
I used that physics law to challenge the idea of the universe arising from nothing. That's what that paragraph was about. Seemed pretty obvious to me.

[edit on 4-4-2006 by point]

You did! Besides it wasn't a serious question.

Your right, and I'm sorry for using the word birth, I didn't mean for you to take the word as a human conception.

Nothing 'can' come from nothing including any god.

So god is nothing? If god is nothing then god can't exist, how can something exist and yet be literally nothing? And your talking about illogical thing's?

Something 'cannot' come from nothing.

Ok, agreed. There is no god then.

Time and space are themselves the creations of a superior intelligence.

Really? And our best evidence is a book written around the time people used to think lightning was the byproduct of angry gods or people who thought dancing around would appease the gods and produce rain?

Have you considered the possibility that your particles may merely be popping in and out of this dimension as opposed to out of existence?

Ah, the fabled my god came from another dimension mythology. This is a really good example of religous evolution coinciding with new discoveries and change's in society. I'm assuming this is partly what your getting at?

I'm not surprised you never seen or heard absolute nothingness. It would really be 'something' if you had!

Aww c'mon, don't play game's. You know what I meant, you seem intelligent enough.

The idea that the universe came from nothing is what I referred to as illogical. Not the 'energy can neither be created nor destroyed, only change form' statement.

Next time, say universe and be more clear. You said nothing about the universe. Here, take a look.

You know, the one about energy neither being able to be created nor destroyed, only changing form.
It may be a popular theory but is it at all logical?

Looks to me like you WERE talking about energy/matter not being created/destroyed to me.

I used that physics law to challenge the idea of the universe arising from nothing. That's what that paragraph was about. Seemed pretty obvious to me.

Nope, wasn't really obvious. Try and be more clear on what your getting at, it won't hurt to write the word universe or hurt to write a couple more sentence's. And no one is saying the universe came from nothing, that's just a silly religous person's idea. Obviously it came from something or somewhere! What that is, we don't know or may never know. But it really could be something ridiculously simple as quantum fluctuation's. We just don't know. Nor are we so quick to be lazy and proclaim god did it. Scientist's are curious and have a knack for trying to learn MORE, not write thing's off as our ancient people once did (used a couple example's above, refer back to them for refrence if you need too, or I can post more silly example's).

Proton,
Once again you've managed to misinterpret what I have written and draw wild conclusions/assumptions about silly religious people believing the universe came from nothing, god being nothing, god not existing, the writing of an ancient book whilst a rain dance is being performed, and let's not forget those tricky quantum fluctuations.
Please! No more silly examples!
Btw, was the humor intentional? Either way it's given me a good laugh.
Well you know what they say, "Laughter is the best medicine"
Thanks, Doc!

Once again you've managed to misinterpret what I have written

Really? Where did I go wrong specifically? Perhaps it's just you not being clear on what your trying to say again, such as the energy/matter issue.

Perhaps you mean these two parts?

Nothing 'can' come from nothing including any god.
...
Something 'cannot' come from nothing.

Now either god is something or he is nothing. If he's something, then he can not have come from nothing. If he is nothing, then he is nothing.

Let's look at another statement you made, about nothing.

I'm not surprised you never seen or heard absolute nothingness. It would really be 'something' if you had!

Using the idea that god is nothing just seem's ridiculous when I see this statement by you. Religous people claim to hear and see god, so he must be something then! and if he's something, he couldn't have come from nothing, and you said so yourself.

Something cannot come from nothing.

Either be more clear, or... be more damn clear.

Proton,
Alright, I'll try to dumb it down a bit.
Here goes:
No-thing can come from nothing, including any god.
or another way,
Nothing (including any god) can come from nothing.

If you still wish to interpret these sentences in a manner that was not intended, by all means go right ahead.
Your lack of comprehension is truely astounding!

Please stay on topic...

Ok, now you've just completely confused me.

So, your definately saying god is NOTHING, or NO THING?

Didn't you just say to me that if we could see absolute nothingness, that it would pretty much be something?

I'm not surprised you never seen or heard absolute nothingness. It would really be 'something' if you had!

So, if we believe the word of those who've seen and heard god, he would indeed have to be something, and as you said; you can't get something from nothing!

Ok, let's try and dumb it down even more.

Is god nothing

OR

Is god something

Another problem I've got with this silly idea. If you've never seen nothingness, then how do you know god (something) can come from it?

Riwka,
I would love to get back on topic, and off these ridiculous inane tangents!
Back to page 1 it is then.
Who's with me, anyone?....hello..... .........echo.......

Well, in getting back on topic, as no-one has responded to the contrary, it seems that everyone now agrees that this physical world was intelligently designed, but the divinity of the designer is indeed questionable.

Originally posted by mytym
Well, in getting back on topic, as no-one has responded to the contrary, it seems that everyone now agrees that this physical world was intelligently designed, but the divinity of the designer is indeed questionable.

I wouldn't go so far as saying everyone agree's the universe was designed lol.

I think you jumped the gun by stating that everyone agrees regarding intelligent design.

You are implying through your statements that the universe was created with humans in mind. If the fundamental elements that allow life to exist had of been the slightest bit different I can agree that life 'as we know it' would not exist, but who is to say that life on a different scale (out of our realm) could not have existed or occurred naturally if the laws of our universe were different?

Firstly, my comments were tongue in cheek, I thought that was pretty clear.

I don't see how my statement implies anything you are suggesting. Isn't the notion that fundamental elements that allow life to exist is so acutely distributed, more evidence of intelligent design? At any rate, this is your argument, not mine, for all I know life may exist even if these fundamental elements were even the slightest bit off. I made no indication that the intelligent designer had only humans in mind. I also made it quite clear I was talking about the physical world, I made no mention of other realms.

I made no indication that the intelligent designer had only humans in mind.

Yes you did. You believe the 'creator' is human so that suggests that you are implyng that the universe was created with humans in mind. Are you not?

Getting back on topic, it seems quite probable to me that an intelligent designer of THIS universe is a human just like you and me.

Isn't the notion that fundamental elements that allow life to exist is so acutely distributed, more evidence of intelligent design?

No it's not evidence of intelligent design...nor is it evidence of evolution...but it doesn't mean that life could not have evolved through a natural process such as evolution.

When I mentioned 'out of our realm' I was meaning that it would be out of our realm of understanding because we have only experienced life as it is now, but that does not mean that it is not entirely plausible to experience life another way that we may not know about. Does that make sense?

Not arguing, I was just pointing some things out about your argument.

zenlover28
If you do not wish to argue, I will try and respect that.

Let me just point out that I said it is quite PROBABLE that the intelligent designer is human, not that it IS human. I was actually referring to the thread topic, not my posts when I made this comment anyway. Your arguments do make sense, which is why the original poster and myself both specified this physical world.

People have a problem understanding how time works. As animals, we perceive it "moving" in only one "direction." But it isn't really like that at all.

So people don't believe me when I say the Universe will be created, probably by accident but maybe intentionally, sometime in the future, when either human or machine intelligence evolves to a point where it can affect things consciously on a quantum level. The Universe exists because we exist in it, and vice-versa. Simple. But the whole notion of cause-then-effect is a human construction and has very little basis in the way space and time are actually set up.

It might be comforting to believe there is some kind of powerful, benign spirit watching over you and guiding you. And there is. It's your own mind.

Originally posted by mytym
zenlover28
which is why the original poster and myself both specified this physical world.

I'm sorry mytym but I do not comprehend that. Perhaps you could explain it to me in a way that I can understand. Are you implying that this creator whoever or whatever it is only created the 'physical' plane of existence and the rest was created by humans or what? Sorry, I don't mean to sound dumb, but i'm just not following.

zenlover28
No the reference to the physical world is for the purpose of familiarity for all those who believe the popular notion that the physical world is all there is. So the implication is that this perception of a physical world & universe is created by an intelligent designer. As far as popular belief goes, this is all many people believe exists. I am not one of theose however, but I will be getting off topic if I have to explain all this to everyone, especially considering so many here, don't share my belief.

Ah I see. I was under the impression that the majority of creationists felt that there was a 'heaven' which is outside the physical world. But, I understand what you are saying now. But, I still don't understand the point of the argument because if something or someone created the physical world then whatever 'it' was would have been outside the physical world since it would not have existed before the 'outsider' created it.

But for good conversation I would think that if you looked at it from the perspective that there is nothing else outside the physical world then it would lend even more credence to the "big bang" theory. In my opinion, what gives the creationists a leg to stand on is the paranormal and what exists outside of our physical world.

Again, not trying to argue, just pointing that out.

zenlover28:
I don't know why you are limiting popular belief to that solely of creationists, I'm encompassing everyone here. Even the Big Bang theory would require something existing outside the physical world wouldn't it? How is it different from intelligent design in that respect?

I'm glad you keep pointing out that you are not trying to argue, because I'm finding your posts indistinguishable from argumentative ones without this clarification.

Mytym I will not be provoked by you. I am not arguing. The argument in this thread makes absolutely no sense. That's all i'm saying. Take care.