The Fact is, Jesus is the prophesied Messiah

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
So get online and look at a Bible and compare it to a Catholic Bible and you will find they are different. If you're not interested in the truth, then don't. It' pretty simple.

what do you mean, a CATHOLIC bible?

when i was a catholic i wasn't told to use a specific bible

i've seen catholics use every form of bible i've heard of

so, care to explain?

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
So get online and look at a Bible and compare it to a Catholic Bible and you will find they are different. If you're not interested in the truth, then don't. It' pretty simple.

How is this, in any way, related to what we were discussing? Is changing the topic your way of avoiding an actual response?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul


what do you mean, a CATHOLIC bible?

The Catholic Bible is not the same as the Bible. It has books that are not recognized as Canonical. The Catholic Bible contains the Apocryphal or hidden books that aren't in the Bible.

when i was a catholic i wasn't told to use a specific bible

When I was a Catholic I wasn't told to use a Bible at all. Oh they read a few passages in Church but that's the extent of it. There is no knowledge or power in the Cathilic Church only the Babylonian religion. Ask a Catholic if he or she is going to heaven and you will get this answer. I think so. Overall, I'm pretty good. I'm a good person so yes probaby.

That is not the answer. The answer is I have salvation thru faith, not works. By faith, I am going to heaven. By faith that the Messiah died for the sins of men.

i've seen catholics use every form of bible i've heard of

I have rarely seen a Catholic use a Bible and If I did it was something like the Living Bible. I've seen ten times more beer mugs at church than Bibles.

so, care to explain?

Sure. If you were raised in the Catholic Church you very likely have no relationship with God. You went to church, found it boring and were not spiritually fed the truth. A devout Catholic that has a strong relationship with God likely has very little knowledge that will help him overcome and grow beyond a certain point.

There many Catholics that have a great love for God but they are in a religion of works and have not been born again and have no knowledge of the truth.

Give the Catholic some truth and they usually explode spiritually because if they are still in church, they are so spiritually hungry that they just absorb the Bible.

If you went to a Catholic Church, you have likely not experienced a relationship with God because you don't know how. The answers are in the Bible(Non Catholic) King James would be the best.

Originally posted by DJMessiah

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
So get online and look at a Bible and compare it to a Catholic Bible and you will find they are different. If you're not interested in the truth, then don't. It' pretty simple.

How is this, in any way, related to what we were discussing? Is changing the topic your way of avoiding an actual response?

Well lets see...........the original discussion was about Constantine and him being responsible for the books of the Bible.

He was not.

Or maybe you are talking about Islam. Here is a quote from you.

There is no Surrah in the Quran that validates terrorism. I have already replied to the Surrahs dealing with war in another thread, which proves Islam is a peaceful religion.

If you really believe this is true, don't you think that your efforts would be better spent in the Masques explaining to those people that they are wrong and can't read? Note---- Be Carefull of Backpacks

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
Well lets see...........the original discussion was about Constantine and him being responsible for the books of the Bible.

The original discussion had been about the Nicene council. You have yet to show me were I discussed Constantine in any of my previous replies.

Or maybe you are talking about Islam. Here is a quote from you.

I'm beginning to believe you don't even read other people's replies. Do you know why I even replied about the Quran? It's because you stated that it 'commands Muslims to attack Christians and Jews.' So I will ask you once again, show me where it says this in the Quran. Be aware your credibility is on the line here.

If you really believe this is true, don't you think that your efforts would be better spent in the Masques explaining to those people that they are wrong and can't read? Note---- Be Carefull of Backpacks

This has to be one of the most ignorant comments I've seen. It's your stereotypical assumption that Mosques teach anything but peace. I have yet to meet an Imam in my 11 years of traveling who didn't preach peace towards other faiths. My efforts would be better spent educating you and people like you who teach the same "Islam" that the terrorists teach.

Your "be careful of backpacks" comment shows your nature of ignorance.

[edit on 3-10-2006 by DJMessiah]

Originally posted by DJMessiah

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
Well lets see...........the original discussion was about Constantine and him being responsible for the books of the Bible.

The original discussion had been about the Nicene council. You have yet to show me were I discussed Constantine in any of my previous replies.

I think it's time for you to take a breath. You came to the defense of another by your words:

In defense of the other poster, I will reply for them. I would suggest you look into the "Nicene Creed" and the "Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed."

The other poster brought up Constantine and you defended his incorrect position. That is where Constantine came. If you don't agree with the other poster then why defend an incorrect postition. here is his quote that you are defending.

oh and the bible was writen at the meeting in nicea whick was presided over by the roman emperor constantine

You seem to have a problem with basic simple logic. Maybe that is the root of your Koran problem.

The Koran says not to be the friend of the Christian and Jew. Care to explain that away. You can't IT SAYS WHAT IT SAYS

[edit on 3-10-2006 by Sun Matrix]

Originally posted by Sun Matrix

I think it's time for you to take a breath. You came to the defense of another by your words:

In defense of the other poster, I will reply for them. I would suggest you look into the "Nicene Creed" and the "Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed."

It was a reply towards your reply stating: Take 5 minutes and find out what really took place at the Council of Nicea. It had nothing to do with the Bible. A simple web seach should reveal the truth.

The other poster brought up Constantine and you defended his incorrect position. That is where Constantine came. If you don't agree with the other poster then why defend an incorrect postition. here is his quote that you are defending.

Exactly which part of his "Constantine" position did I defend? You're making false assumptions, making it seem like I validated everything the poster said by replying to your "Take 5 minutes and find out what really took place at the Council of Nicea. It had nothing to do with the Bible. A simple web seach should reveal the truth." It seems you're trying to avoid the evidence I put foward proving your statement wrong, by presenting a false view that I also spoke about Constantine as well.

oh and the bible was writen at the meeting in nicea whick was presided over by the roman emperor constantine

Show me exactly where I said anything to the similar to that context in my replies. I doubt you even read my reply, because if you did, I never put foward any kind of evidence that validates that user's remark on how the Nicene council wrote the Bible with Constantine's validation.

You seem to have a problem with basic simple logic. Maybe that is the root of your Koran problem.

How so? Because I presented evidence to you that you were wrong about your 'the council's reason for congregating had nothing to with the Bible', and yet you chose to over look it? Seems like I'm not the one lacking in logic, friend. Look through all the evidence presented over your claims here and you will see that you either ignored them without even replying to them, or you simply shrugged it off with an opinon vs their fact, which shows a large sign of weakness in your argument.

The Koran says not to be the friend of the Christian and Jew. Care to explain that away. You can't IT SAYS WHAT IT SAYS

Sure I can. I did in the other threads and I can do it on here. The Quran says not to befreind Christans and Jews who betray us. Is that so hard to understand?

Now if you want to talk about quotes from our holy books, then please explain to me how the "giants" (translated into "Nephilim" in Hebrew) who existed before the flood in Gen 6:4, happened to exist after the flood as well in Numbers 13:33 - where the Israelites saw the nephilim who were "the sons of Anak, which come of the giants (nephilim).

Originally posted by DJMessiah

Exactly which part of his "Constantine" position did I defend? You're making false assumptions, making it seem like I validated everything the poster said by replying to your "Take 5 minutes and find out what really took place at the Council of Nicea. It had nothing to do with the Bible. A simple web seach should reveal the truth." It seems you're trying to avoid the evidence I put foward proving your statement wrong, by presenting a false view that I also spoke about Constantine as well.

I'm not sure I can make any clearer for you........just a lack of basic logic......but I gave it a shot hoping..............

Sure I can. I did in the other threads and I can do it on here. The Quran says not to befreind Christans and Jews who betray us. Is that so hard to understand?

Sounds real friendly and peaceful to me. I understand perfectly. But I'm not the problem.

Now if you want to talk about quotes from our holy books, then please explain to me how the "giants" (translated into "Nephilim" in Hebrew) who existed before the flood in Gen 6:4, happened to exist after the flood as well in Numbers 13:33 - where the Israelites saw the nephilim who were "the sons of Anak, which come of the giants (nephilim).

I can't seem to explain your lack of logic in defense of another poster. If you want the answer, find out what they are talking about in Isaiah 26:13-14 and Isaiah 26:5 Then take that infomation and go to Isaiah 14. You will need to find out who the king is being discussed and to do that you need to go to Jeremiah 10: 1-5. If you can figure that out, you will have your answer.



[edit on 4-10-2006 by Sun Matrix]

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
I'm not sure I can make any clearer for you........just a lack of basic logic......but I gave it a shot hoping..............

How does making personal attacks help support any of your argument? If you haven't read, common courtesy is advocated in the forums. Simply telling someone they lack logic, because they made a point, isn't a reply and very rude.

Sounds real friendly and peaceful to me. I understand perfectly. But I'm not the problem.

Then why post false information such as "The Quran instructs Muslims to attack Jews and Christians"?

Originally posted by Sun Matrix

Originally posted by DJMessiah
Now if you want to talk about quotes from our holy books, then please explain to me how the "giants" (translated into "Nephilim" in Hebrew) who existed before the flood in Gen 6:4, happened to exist after the flood as well in Numbers 13:33 - where the Israelites saw the nephilim who were "the sons of Anak, which come of the giants (nephilim).

If you want the answer, find out what they are talking about in Isaiah 26:13-14 and Isaiah 26:5 Then take that infomation and go to Isaiah 14.

Ok, you said the answer to how the Nephilim existed after the flood is in those passages, so then let's look at Isaiah 26:13-14 and Isaiah 26:5.

Isaiah 26:13-14:
O LORD, our God, other lords besides you have ruled over us, but your name alone do we honor. They are now dead, they live no more; those departed spirits do not rise. You punished them and brought them to ruin; you wiped out all memory of them.

Isaiah 26:5:
He humbles those who dwell on high, he lays the lofty city low; he levels it to the ground and casts it down to the dust.

No mention of how the Nephilim still remain to exist after the flood, so let's take your other advice, shall we?

You will need to find out who the king is being discussed and to do that you need to go to Jeremiah 10: 1-5. If you can figure that out, you will have your answer.

Jeremiah 10: 1-5
Hear the word which the LORD speaks to you, O house of Israel. Thus says the LORD: “Do not learn the way of the Gentiles; Do not be dismayed at the signs of heaven, For the Gentiles are dismayed at them. For the customs of the peoples are futile; For one cuts a tree from the forest, The work of the hands of the workman, with the ax. They decorate it with silver and gold; They fasten it with nails and hammers so that it will not topple. They are upright, like a palm tree, and they cannot speak; they must be carried, because they cannot go by themselves. Do not be afraid of them, for they cannot do evil, nor can they do any good.”

Still no explanation of the giants, much less no mention of the king you said would be in the passage. Rather than just pointing to random passages in the NT and OT, why not just answer the question straight? How is it possible that the Nephilim existed after the flood, when it is the Christian belief the flood occured in order for God to destroy the Nephilim? I expect an actual answer from you this time and not a personal attack nor you changing the subject with a reply that had nothing to do with the question.

[edit on 5-10-2006 by DJMessiah]

Originally posted by DJMessiah



How does making personal attacks help support any of your argument? If you haven't read, common courtesy is advocated in the forums. Simply telling someone they lack logic, because they made a point, isn't a reply and very rude.

It's like telling someone to turn right. I can't make something so clear any easier.

Then why post false information such as "The Quran instructs Muslims to attack Jews and Christians"?

We've already determined that you lack basic, simple logic. Now we can say that don't understand sarcasm either. This is not a personal attack, I'm just assessing the facts.

Still no explanation of the giants, much less no mention of the king you said would be in the passage.

Figure out who they are talking about in Jeremiah and then go to Isaiah 14 and you will know they are talking of the same person in this verse. From the rest of the info in Isaiah 14 you can determine an answer.

8 Even the pine trees and the cedars of Lebanon exult over you and say, "Now that you have been laid low, no woodsman comes to cut us down."

Rather than just pointing to random passages in the NT and OT, why not just answer the question straight?

Read your answer in defense of the other poster and you will have your answer to this question.

I expect an actual answer from you this time and not a personal attack nor you changing the subject with a reply that had nothing to do with the question.

I gave you enough information to figure it out. Use basic logic. I chased the horses tale on your answer, so.....................................

I don't know why people keep responding to this thread. Sun Matrix has kept it going since the middle of Febuary and it is obvious the only reason for it is to shove his version of Christianity down peoples throats. Propaganda pure and simple.

Originally posted by grover
I don't know why people keep responding to this thread. Sun Matrix has kept it going since the middle of Febuary and it is obvious the only reason for it is to shove his version of Christianity down peoples throats. Propaganda pure and simple.

You might check the dates vs. the poster.

They always come without facts..................

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
It's like telling someone to turn right. I can't make something so clear any easier.

Why turn right, when I've done nothing wrong? Look over my replies and not once did I post any fact that wasn't also backed by evidence. If your idea of "turning right" is trying to belittle someone to avoid giving an actual reply when you know your logic has failed, then I worry for anyone you've given advice to.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix

Originally posted by DJMessiah
Then why post false information such as "The Quran instructs Muslims to attack Jews and Christians"?

We've already determined that you lack basic, simple logic. Now we can say that don't understand sarcasm either. This is not a personal attack, I'm just assessing the facts.

Exactly who is "we"? Are you assuming that there are others here that agree with you? If so, show me your proof - anyone here who thinks I lack logic in any of my replies here, then please step forward.

I also find it appalling that you find openly lying and speaking of attacking Christians and Jews as sarcasm. If that's the case, then you must have a good laugh whenever an innocent person in the world dies. Doesn't sound very Christ like to me.

Figure out who they are talking about in Jeremiah and then go to Isaiah 14 and you will know they are talking of the same person in this verse. From the rest of the info in Isaiah 14 you can determine an answer.

8 Even the pine trees and the cedars of Lebanon exult over you and say, "Now that you have been laid low, no woodsman comes to cut us down."

The book of Yirmeyahu (which is how Jeremiah it's actually pronounced in history) speaks of the events surrounding Yirmeyahu and the ones he was witness to. He tried reforming King Matanyahu (then changed to Zedekiah), in order to ensure the emancipation of Babylonians under the king's rule. In Isaiah, the king mentioned is King Cyrus. Once again, there is no mention of any Nephilim on any of these verse, nor did you give any answer that pertains to anything I asked.

Your whole reply has deviated from my question and holds no relevance to a real answer, rather you lack the logic (see, I can say it too) to find an answer to this discussion and have to resort to personal attacks to stray from the topic at hand.

My question will be asked once again, for all to see. If you can't reply with a real answer, you've just proven to everyone here that you are not as informed about your own faith as you implied, and I would ask that you question the information you preach to others. My question once again - How did the Nephilim (giants) exist after Noah's flood?

Read your answer in defense of the other poster and you will have your answer to this question.

My answer in my previous reply regarded John's Comma and the impact of the Trinitarian beliefs constituted by the Nicene council through the creation of the Nicene Creed, which denied any of the teachings of Arius. I never once mentioned the word "Nephilim" in it, so for one, stating that I answered my own question with an answer I gave a before I asked about the nephilim is ludicrous. Secondly, you telling me what question my own answer was directed towards is hardly intelligent on your behalf.

I gave you enough information to figure it out. Use basic logic. I chased the horses tale on your answer, so.....................................

Thanks for posting that, because I can see now you have no idea what I'm talking about. When someone debates with you, you don't tell them to go find proof that proves your side of the argument correct, rather you present the proof yourself. You keep bringing up the issue of "logic," but I see you lack the mindset needed to check your grammar. Mind explaining to us how one chases a "horses tale"?

[edit on 6-10-2006 by DJMessiah]

Ok so I was off by a month. Big deal doesn't change my opinion of this pointless thread.

In Arabic, "AL" means "the" and "Lah" means God. It has been used for many years prior to Islam, by Semitic speaking people, including Jews and Christians. In Judaism it's pronounced "Elloh," which is also "EL" meaning "The" and "Loh" meaning God. In Aramaic, God is written as "Elaha," "EL" meaning once again as "the" and "Aha" meaning "God." Naturally, the phrase used in Arabic to denote a singular God is Al-Lah (The God).

BTW - good job on this post DJMessiah! Way to Dispel Ignorance!

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente

In Arabic, "AL" means "the" and "Lah" means God. It has been used for many years prior to Islam, by Semitic speaking people, including Jews and Christians. In Judaism it's pronounced "Elloh," which is also "EL" meaning "The" and "Loh" meaning God. In Aramaic, God is written as "Elaha," "EL" meaning once again as "the" and "Aha" meaning "God." Naturally, the phrase used in Arabic to denote a singular God is Al-Lah (The God).

BTW - good job on this post DJMessiah! Way to Dispel Ignorance!

Still looking for help I see. WEAK..............

Yeah right dispel ignorance.

DJ Messiah that was a nice job of explaining Allah. You did leave a few things out however.

Allah comes from the word Al-ilah which mean the god or the diety. Each village, town or whatever was filled with many, many gods. Their chief god would be their ALILAH. When Mohammed threw out all the other false gods in Mecca, their chief god or ALILAH was the moon god Sin.

sun matrix, islam worships the god of abraham

that is the god of judaism and the god of christianity

they simply believe in a different religious text


now, matrix, please prove the following:

1: jesus existed

2: if 1 is true, then jesus is the messiah


if it isn't to difficult, i'd like you to do that

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
sun matrix, islam worships the god of abraham

that is the god of judaism and the god of christianity

they simply believe in a different religious text

If this is true then why does the God of the Christian give his Son for the sins of men so that they can join Him in heaven and the god of the Muslim only offers heaven for sure if your son dies for him.

If the god of the Muslim is the same as the God of the Jew then why does the God of the Jew say that he would restore Israel as a nation and that after Israel is restored that Israel will not be driven out of the land forever. The god of the Muslim seems to want to wipe Israel from the face of the earth.

How can this be the same God?

The God of the Christian and Jew claims to hate the shedding of innocent blood. Can this be the same god that sends a suicide bomber to kill innocent people?

Originally posted by Sun Matrix

If this is true then why does the God of the Christian give his Son for the sins of men so that they can join Him in heaven and the god of the Muslim only offers heaven for sure if your son dies for him.

If the god of the Muslim is the same as the God of the Jew then why does the God of the Jew say that he would restore Israel as a nation and that after Israel is restored that Israel will not be driven out of the land forever. The god of the Muslim seems to want to wipe Israel from the face of the earth.

How can this be the same God?

The God of the Christian and Jew claims to hate the shedding of innocent blood. Can this be the same god that sends a suicide bomber to kill innocent people?

Why should they NOT worship the same god as you? According to you there is one god therefore it stands to reason that anyone who worships one god would be worshipping the same god. The problem arises when one group ascribes certain attributes to their one god which another group dont.
You also say that god is unknowable,infinite and the like (which means you haven't a clue) so why cant Allah and Jehovah be the same god???
The god of the christians/jews hates innocent bloodshed! LOL - Ever read your bible, its full of innocent blood being shed by your god, you know your jealous god that wanted to wipe every living thing of the planet. The suicide bomber however kills people for his own satisfaction i.e to get his virgins and the fact they are brainwashed into it.


G

Teachers have come at different points in the history of mankind as needed and each time they bring teaching appro to that time and place that people then can understand...for the Jews as a tightly bound people, the message was of their special place in the divine plan as the first believers in one God. Jesus was, after the Buddha, the first teacher that not only attempted to teach for ALL of humanity but also was the first, again after Buddha that taught a message in tune with an inward life of the spirit. Muhammad came to a time and place extremely fractured and he taught a message that involved community, because for that time and place was most needed. Much of the problems the west has in understanding that very fact...Islam is a communitarian faith. Each of these teachers spoke in metaphor and symbolism....it is not for the wiser believers spoke of 66 virgins and th like, it was for the simple...In fact I have found that 95% of all spiritual teachings are best understood as metaphor...if you attempt to understand them as set carved in stone fact, you run the risk of becoming inflexible and doctrinare.