Why is Advocating Genocide Tolerated?

Masqua points out a VERY GOOD analogy to current world scene. I think we are in way more trouble today than we were when Kruzy was pounding his shoe at the UN General Assembly.

As Masqua says, "it's more Global today" the point exactly. I was watching the news most of the afternoon ("The Sixth Sense" [I see dead people] is on now ) and saw a report from a General in the intel biz and he says Iran is about 1 - 1.5 years away from a usable nuclear weapon.

He went on to say that we are 3/4 to 1 year away from military action unless it "gets worked out" which he has little hope of. Me too, dam little.

As long as radicals will burn churches in Iowa over cartoons in Denmark there is little hope. As long as peope continue to cast all people affiliated with these radicals by religious/cultural beliefs as radicals to there is little hope.

The world is a powder keg right now, we barely got through France and all the riots and now BAM! we have cartoons. Then we have the Italian IDIOT who exposes a T Shirt with the cartoons on it on TV to "prove" he is not scared" or whatever it his stated reason was simply PROVES there is little hope. Talk about a way to make sure more moderates become extremists!

Conversely, we have fanatical extremists screaming Israel should be wiped from the face of the Earth, gettin their followers to strap bombs to their bodies and blow up innocent people in the name of martyrdom. Talk about a way to get the rest of the world PISSED OFF at you!

BOTH of these examples are proof that we, as a species are more than likely going to commit suicide by self destruction.

The solution does NOT lie in fanaticism or bigotry. The truth that "will set us free" does not lie in the rhetoric of insane people and the ignorant multitudes that follow them blindly (on BOTH sides).

ATS is dedicated to the relentless search for the truth through the DENIAL of IGNORANCE.

Having ANY form of "Broad Brushed Bashing" on this site is in direct conflict of that search and only serves to distract and stir up emotions that are useless to the discovery of the truth because they blind us to the possibility that there is common ground from which to start a meaningful conversation.


Springer...






[edit on 2-19-2006 by Springer]

[edit on 2-19-2006 by Springer]

Originally posted by Jamuhn
As a privately-owned board, why do you not condone issues such as above, but tolerate speech like:

I vote to wipe Iran off the face of the earth, lets do Syria while we are at it too.

Or why do you decide to tolerate speech saying that Islam is an evil religion and should be exterminated along with many of its adherents?

There are not enough people here asking the hard questions of why it is only a miniscule percentage of the Muslim world that commits violence and what do these fanatical Imams have to gain from such calls for violence.

Is this given from an only pro-Muslim perspective or an objective standpoint, Jamuhn?

Here are some hard questions for you

I ask such because I find it ironic, if not dubious, that in having been a member of this board as long as you have that you simply give comment to and for one side of the spectrum. Incidental, Jamuhn or simply purposeful?
Why have you made no mention of the ATS factoid that there have been a number of past and present ATS members that have openly stated and/or mentioned that they would not mind seeing Jews and Israel wiped off the map? Why have you not mentioned the relatively few past and present members that have openly stated and mentioned their desire to see the US wiped off the face of the Earth?

Furthermore, where were you, when in the past such mentions were made concerning the US and Jews and Israel, among other genocide mentions; why were you no where to be found in making such defending commentarys and claiming outrage like you apparently are now when there are seemingly those who call for Islam or Muslims or Arabs to be wiped off any map? Was it tolerance of such mentions that allowed you to not create a topic expressing your outrage at such remarks, yet, seemingly, you express lack of tolerance and outrage when the flipside is reversed to express such sentiments concerning Muslims, Arabs, etc?

I am in no way advocating nor backing such genocidal proclamations, but in reading this, and when considering your past post history concerning Islamic and Muslim Arab World topics, hypocrisy simply and plainly came seeping forth.

Again, ironic.





seekerof

[edit on 19-2-2006 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by Seekerof
Is this given from an only pro-Muslim perspective or an objective standpoint, Jamuhn?

I'm against genocide in any form. You do not find many calls for Israel or the US to be wiped off the map, but recently there have been a multitude of calls towards Muslims speaking people and countries. If I ever saw the pervasiveness of such calls in relation to any other group, I would have responded equally, but it is only now that we see this occurring towards Islam.

I'm not exactly sure what you're motives are to direct this conversation away from the fact that genocide and blanket insults are wrong. This thread is not about me, this thread is about stepping up for truth and justice. And if you want to see other issues I have cited, look no further than the first paragraph of my opening post:

Didn't ATS say NO to insults on political views, and NO to neo-Nazis?

If you want to know my meaning it is to emphasize that ATS has continually in the past tried to gear discussion towards productive ones, and, during the recent situation concerning Islam, the same rule should be applied.

I am sorry that you have this animosity towards me, and feel the need to slander my posts. But, I do not view every single thread on ATS, nor do I have the time, but when you look through the most recent posts, it is obvious that the proportion of Islamic-related threads is very large and this clash of cultures is coming to the forefront of focus in international relations. It's time that there should be some tolerance and moderation in related discussion.

[edit on 19-2-2006 by Jamuhn]

Yes, of course, now it is "multitudes" versus "not many"...I see.

Further, it is not slanderous to ask the 'hard questions' that evidently you took as me having issues with you or being a way to slander your posts/commentary(s).

I simply asked you questions based upon past observations.
You apparently had no issues when those genocidal mentions were made concerning the US, Jews, and Israel, yet, and again ironically, you are now having issues with it being indicated for Arabs, Muslims, and Islam.

Look at it this way, Jamuhn, if the world can tolerate, while expressing outrage, the genocidal comments of Iranian past and present presidents, among various Hamas leaders and others, stating that Israel and Zionist Jews should be wiped off any map or the face of the Earth, then ATS can tolerate such mentions and subsequent expressed outrage from time to time, correct? No amount of enforcement and scrutinizing will catch each and every genocidal or genocidal-like mention.

Besides, it takes a hell'va lot more than mere tidbit genocidal mentions on ATS to create the world's next Hitler's....





seekerof

[edit on 19-2-2006 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by Seekerof
Look at it this way, Jamuhn, if the world can tolerate, while expressing outrage, the genocidal comments of an Iranian past and present president and various Hamas leaders, among others, stating that Israel and Zionist Jews should be wiped off any map or the face of the Earth, then ATS can tolerate such mentions and subsequent expressed outrage from time to time, correct?

As I said before Seekerof, I am not aware of other calls members have made calling for the destruction of Israel and the US, and if it does occur, then those obviously should be treated the same way. I am merely pointing out the widespread nature of such calls and insults towards Islam. I am not going to just look the other way even if I am from a different culture.

There is no "from time to time" as you would like to minimize the widespread calls for extermination of Muslims and Muslim countries. Neither should you minimize the atrociousness of any calls for genocide, whether it be Muslim, Jewish, Christian, US, etc. etc.

And, as before, there is already a precedent that has been established at ATS with the purpose of keeping discussion on track and focused on "denying ignorance" and other beneficial endeavors. Whether it is the administration or the netizens of ATS, this thread is a call to attention. And if that is your dissenting opinion on what should be done concerning this problem, then let it be that.

There is no reason to turn this into personal bickering and derail the true intention of this thread in discussing this matter.

Originally posted by Jamuhn
Neither should you minimize the atrociousness of any calls for genocide, whether it be Muslim, Jewish, Christian, US, etc. etc.

Which is exactly what you are doing by not including the calls for US, Jews, and Israel genocide. Your attempt to persuade to the contrary concerning such past mentions is likened to 'denial' of the fact.

Whether it is the administration or the netizens of ATS, this thread is a call to attention. And if that is your dissenting opinion on what should be done concerning this problem, then let it be that.

Just as my mentions were given to call to attention.
My beef is with those that are making the call to attention, yet seemingly making the call for one side. Thus making your call to attention more subjective than objective, IMHO.

There is no reason to turn this into personal bickering and derail the true intention of this thread in discussing this matter.

As mentioned, and as you claimed your purpose was and for in making this topic thread, my intentions were to call to attention a few things: One--that such genocidal mentions are not merely restricted to relativeness of 'now', nor simply against Muslims, Arabs, or Islam, and two--that you have forgotten this when making this expressedly one-sided, yet beneficial, topic. Hence, my true intentions were to add and to call to [your] attention such things.





seekerof

[edit on 19-2-2006 by Seekerof]

I do agree with you Seekerof that this should not only apply to comments surrounding Islam, but to hate speech found among any person. I've just never seen it this bad before, concerning any group.

[edit on 19-2-2006 by Jamuhn]

Originally posted by Jamuhn
I do agree with you Seekerof that this should not only apply to comments surrounding Islam, but to hate speech found among any person.

I've just never seen it this bad before, concerning any group.

[edit on 19-2-2006 by Jamuhn]

I'm glad to see you both come to an understanding in this.

The last century had its fair share of genocides and I'm hopeful that the 21rst just may be a turning point for all of us. The recent spate of death and destruction bodes toward the opposite, though, I'm afraid.

www.scaruffi.com...

Mao Ze-Dong (China, 1958-61 and 1966-69) 49,000,000 ("great leap forward" and "cultural revolution")
Jozef Stalin (USSR, 1934-39) 13,000,000 (the purges)
Adolf Hitler (Germany, 1939-1945) 12,000,000 (concentration camps and civilians WWII)
Hideki Tojo (Japan, 1941-44) 5,000,000 (civilians WWII)
Pol Pot (Cambodia, 1975-79) 1,700,000
Kim Il Sung (North Korea, 1948-94) 1.6 million (purges and concentration camps)
Menghitsu (Ethiopia, 1975-78) 1,500,000
Ismail Enver (Turkey, 1915) 1,200,000 Armenians
Yakubu Gowon (Biafra, 1967-1970) 1,000,000
Leonid Brezhnev (Afghanistan, 1979-1982) 900,000
Jean Kambanda (Rwanda, 1994) 800,000
Suharto (East Timor, 1976-98) 600,000
Saddam Hussein (Iran 1980-1990 and Kurdistan 1987-88) 600,000
Yahya Khan (Pakistan, 1971) vs Bangladesh 500,000
Savimbi (Angola, 1975-2002) 400,000
Mullah Omar - Taliban (Afghanistan, 1986-2001) 400,000
Idi Amin (Uganda, 1969-1979) 300,000
Benito Mussolini (Ethiopia, 1936; Yugoslavia, WWII) 300,000
Mobutu Sese Seko (Zaire, 1965-97) ?
Charles Taylor (Liberia, 1989-1996) 220,000
Foday Sankoh (Sierra Leone, 1991-2000) 200,000
Slobodan Milosevic (Yugoslavia, 1992-96) 180,000
Michel Micombero (Burundi, 1972) 150,000
Hassan Turabi (Sudan, 1989-1999) 100,000
Jean-Bedel Bokassa (Centrafrica, 1966-79) ?
Richard Nixon (Vietnam, 1969-1974) 70,000 (vietnamese civilians)
Papa Doc Duvalier (Haiti, 1957-71) 60,000
Hissene Habre (Chad, 1982-1990) 40,000
Chiang Kai-shek (Taiwan, 1947) 30,000 (popular uprising)
Vladimir Ilich Lenin (USSR, 1917-20) 30,000 (dissidents executed)
Francisco Franco (Spain) 30,000 (dissidents executed after the civil war)
Lyndon Johnson (Vietnam, 1963-1968) 30,000
Hafez Al-Assad (Syria, 1980-2000) 25,000
Khomeini (Iran, 1979-89) 20,000
Guy Mollet (France, 1956-1957) 10,000 (war in Algeria)
Paul Koroma (Sierra Leone, 1997) 6,000
Osama bin Laden (worldwide, 1991-2001) 4,000
Augusto Pinochet (Chile, 1973) 3,000
Efrain Rios Montt (Guatemala) 2,000
Marcos (Philippines) ?

These are, of course, body counts that are approximate, because no-one can really ever know how many died...

Look at your neighbours, your fellow posters here at ATS, your family...and realize just how precious life is...and how easily it can all be washed away.

And the only way genocide can happen is when multitudes of people are coerced into hating others...usually by proud speeches from respected leaders and accusatory finger-pointing at innocent scapegoats.

There's not a country in the world that is blameless for genocide...not even polite little Canada. The original natives of Newfoundland were hunted like deer for sport until they were all dead.

Ignorance and hate.
.

Editorial Discretion

A broad brush paints a crude picture.

Many of us come to ATS with heads full of hateful propaganda provided by the “mainstream media” and those who control it – both in terms of owning it and by means of controlling what is fed to it (i.e. press releases, marketing campaigns and sponsored articles from multinationals, special interest groups and governments).

What makes this so insidious is how it is presented as “what normal people think”.

It's not always easy or even possible for members to “wipe their feet at the door” when they come in, and well, here we are.

Of course, the danger in having our community adopt editorial positions is that if you stack up enough of them, ATS becomes a source of dogma rather than a tool for cutting through it. As things stand, I don't see that being a problem.

But if it were, would we see it?

I think it's good to ask ourselves that now and then.

Reality Check

Something I find incredibly valuable about ATS is the international extent of our community.

While it's easy for me as an American to see propaganda as a uniquely American problem, world history as American history, global issues as American issues and look at the world in terms of what's going on in America, these perspectives are parochial and misleading.

Being able to compare notes with friends from around the world helps all of us to see past the lies each of us is fed every minute of every day of our lives.

We can do this because those who seek to deceive us tell us different things depending on who we are, and that's how we can catch them at it.

We can only do this by sharing our observations and opinions, and I pray we will never feel inhibited from doing so honestly.

Love And Hate

One man's hatred is another man's passion.

Members say some heated things on ATS, and I'm no exception. Here in these forums I discovered a longstanding rule that has never been broken even once: when I post something out of anger, I always regret it later.

Sometimes members will post things that reveal inner problems, or confide immersion in the intellectual abyss of peremptory, polarized thought. Sometimes these things are problematic enough that staff action is required under the AboveTopSecret.com Terms And Conditions Of Use.

Members who violate the T&C do so at their own risk, but nobody's perfect.

Sometimes when a member says something that is “forbidden”, it leads to discussion that can open new vistas of understanding for those who might otherwise be left in darkness.

Though I don't in any way wish to suggest that the staff not vigorously enforce the T&C, I ask my fellow members to consider what might otherwise be dismissed as misconduct as an opportunity to help someone who is struggling to Deny Ignorance.

Sometimes the best response to hateful words is a friendly rebuttal. Even the most bitter and wounded of souls is not immune to the balm of kindness.

You can lead a troll to knowledge but you can't make him think.

Still, it's sometimes worth the effort anyway.






[edit on 2/20/2006 by Majic]

lets be realistic here for a minute, ive seen a hell of alot more bashing of islam and muslisms then any other religion by far. yes all those who spew racism should be punished accordingly, but the racism of islam and muslims has gone rampade. i check this one thread started by a member called alien DNA and the entire thread was a bunch of racists agreeing on the fact we should wipe them out of existance and how evil they were. im not muslim but i found it extremely offensive to the point i was thinking about leaving ATS because it managed to get multiple pages long of just pure racism. its was disgusting, and i was EXTREMELY offended by the lack of respect for human life that was observed by peoples opinions.

all should be punished if they say a race needs to be exterminated, but with the situations currently going on in the world its painfully obvious that the racism concerning islam and muslims is becoming a whole new issue because of how serious its becoming.

Majic. Well said. A lot of us came to ATS with some preconcieved notions on a host of topics that are discussed herein. I like to consider myself open minded, but have changed a number of cherished beliefs because someone here made me rethink, or at least take a closer look at a subject, and I like to believe that I might have done the same for someone else.

All views should be welcome here. Feel free to disagree violently, I have and in all likelihood will continue to do so. Agree to disagree, and deny ignorance. Can't do that if we ban speech, no matter how reprehensible it maybe.

QUOTE:
There are not enough people here asking the hard questions of why it is only a miniscule percentage of the Muslim world that commits violence and what do these fanatical Imams have to gain from such calls for violence.

The Muslim expert polled his Muslim contacts around the world after a close friend shocked him with the estimate that 70% of all Muslims were Jihadi's or supportive of Jihadi's.

His contacts from around the world virtually all confirmed that estimate.

Facts are sometimes very troublesome to deal with.

The Trouble With Facts

Originally posted by BO XIAN
Facts are sometimes very troublesome to deal with.

Perhaps, but rumors are far worse.

Can you point to a citation for these "facts"?

Originally posted by seagull
All views should be welcome here. Feel free to disagree violently, I have and in all likelihood will continue to do so. Agree to disagree, and deny ignorance. Can't do that if we ban speech, no matter how reprehensible it maybe.

I agree pretty much with all you say here with one little but important change. I think it should be 'feel free to disagree strongly'. Disagree violently and the results might be riots. Or even worse, deaths. That would be very very bad. Very.

lol polls are BS, fact? i think not

o and to the other guy, its ok to bash bush, hes a single person. its when you start saying whole groups of people should be shot based of there belief structure. not all republicans should be shot....just the ones that actually voted bush twice in a roll lol..j/p for all you people who cant take a joke.

Jamuhn,

I find your anti-American avatar completely offensive and I would like you to remove that ignorant thing please. I can't believe that America... or Bush bashing... Is allowed on ATS. It's dispicable.

Originally posted by LostSailor
I can't believe that America... or Bush bashing... Is allowed on ATS. It's dispicable.

The similarities are not even close to genocide.

Originally posted by Jamuhn
The similarities are not even close to genocide.

There aren't people out there that wouldn't mind seeing something bad happen to the US? I'm not supporting genocide in any manner... Just pointing out that people disagree about what is... PC and what is not. Is that what this whole issue is? Is it not PC to hate? Disagree?

Should people make blanketed comments about dropping bombs all over Iran and Syria? Hell no... But it's just that... Ignorance. How many people do you actually think agree with a comment like that? Should it be cencored just because it is ignorant?

Heck, I'd be long gone from this web site if they cencored ignorance....

Not censored, but discouraged would be good. Broad brush statements like that isn't what I'd call 'denying ignorance'.

Genocide is bad, mmmkay.






unless we're killing some supressive aliens imhoirldiafaliens