Cancer breakthrough!

Valhall - We tried to, but it seems some people would rather try to argue that American rules and health care policies apply in a medical system they have never been involved in. ::shrug::

Yes we can now go back to topic! I am not sure how we started arguing about healthcare systems, but as long as its over. Anyways like I said "Okay five minutes ago I heard on the 570 a.m. radio station (WKBN) news report that reasearchers found an enzyme (I think thats how you spell it) that is found in 90% of the different types of cancer cells it had a name but I forgot what it was so if anyone else heard about this story I don't care through what news station would they please inform me what the name of the enzyme is? Anyway they said that now that they know this they start to work on a cure to target the cancer cells enzyme and kill it without letting the cancer spread (even though they said it would take years of study on the enzyme and cancer patients). This is good news isn't it?!
Anyway I also wanted to know if anyone knew what the time frame might be." (quote from JoJo the religious man on the first page of this thread) any responses to that quote (the topic of this thread) would be greatly appreciated.

[edit on 1-3-2006 by soficrow]

Despite BSdoc's insistence, healthcare is international Big Business, inextricably intertwined with other international Big Businesses - and decisions are taken to maximize profits, not to benefit mankind. It is the law that corporations must put profits first, before any and all other considerations.

Wow, another personal insult, surprising coming from Soficrow. Again, sofi, I'm terribly sorry you can't seem to grasp the fact that more treatment=more money=more cost for the government=bad. If there was a one shot cure, the social governments would jump on it to reduce the budget for healthcare and line their pockets. It's that simple. they make no money from higher medical costs. If you can prove otherwise, go for it. All you've done is show that medical costs are rising. I never said they weren't. The fact that they're rising doesn't mean the politicians are making money. They aren't. There are more chronic conditions being treated and more prescriptions being written. Until you can provide me with a source that shows that extra medical cost is going to individuals in the government, I still consider you a buffoon.

Oh, and your "scathing critique" of Geron Corp was nothing but someone ranting about the company with no facts, names, figures, ANYTHING to back it up. I'm not saying Geron Corp is good or bad, I don't know enough about them. I just think you posted a very weak source.

~MFP

[edit on 3/1/2006 by bsl4doc]

[edit on 1-3-2006 by soficrow]

Hm, wow. So I guess you admit you can't answer my question. Oh well, I guess your idea is busted then.

[edit on 1-3-2006 by soficrow]

Health care costs are rising, chronic treatment costs more, so why would a socialized healthcare system with hold a cheaper treatment like a cancer vaccine? It's cheap, it's quick, it saves the government money they can instead line their pockets with.

Please don't just dodge questions you can't answer.

[edit on 1-3-2006 by soficrow]

Soffi...your doing a really good job as usuall!
I am always impressed at your back ups and sources.....you do not just spew randomness and personal impressions as some do. Always admireable in the face of trolls warented or not, very good job!

I to am waiting for the much desired responses to your information.......baited breath even....

So no answer to the question as to why government officials would strip their own programs and pockets of money by not allowing a cure to be prescribed? Interesting.

[edit on 1-3-2006 by soficrow]

Originally posted by JoJo the religious man

Yes we can now go back to topic! I am not sure how we started arguing about healthcare systems, but as long as its over.


...Anyways... reasearchers found an enzyme (I think thats how you spell it) that is found in 90% of the different types of cancer cells it had a name but I forgot what it was so if anyone else heard about this story I don't care through what news station would they please inform me what the name of the enzyme is? Anyway they said that now that they know this they start to work on a cure to target the cancer cells enzyme and kill it without letting the cancer spread (even though they said it would take years of study on the enzyme and cancer patients). This is good news isn't it?!

One more time.


JoJo - The enzyme is "telomerase." Marg is right - this "discovery" dates back to 1992/94, when a company called Geron picked up all the patents on telomerase to develop it as a cancer cure.

Geron made the announcement in 1994:

Findings Support Study Of Telomerase As Potential Single, Specific Anti-Cancer Target

MENLO PARK, CA — December 23, 1994 — An "immortalizing enzyme" known as telomerase is active in many different kinds of cancers and cancer cell lines, but is not found in the normal tissues from which those cancers arose, according to a study published today in Science by researchers from The University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center at Dallas and Geron Corp.

These results confirm and extend earlier studies suggesting that telomerase might be a specific and universal marker for cancer with potential as a target for anti-tumor diagnostics and therapeutics.

"IMMORTALIZING ENZYME" DETECTED IN MANY TYPES OF CANCER

Here's where it's at today:

Incorporated in the state of Delaware in 1990, Geron has been in business since 1992. The Company’s headquarters and main facilities are located in Menlo Park, California. The Company also has a subsidiary in Edinburgh, Scotland.

Geron is a biopharmaceutical company developing and commercializing three groups of products:
1. therapeutic products for oncology (cancer) that target telomerase;
2. pharmaceuticals that activate telomerase in tissues impacted by senescence, injury or degenerative disease; and
3. cell-based therapies derived from its human embryonic stem cell platform for applications in multiple chronic diseases

Telomerase is an enzyme that is expressed in nearly all cancer cells, but not in most normal cells. We hope to kill cancer cells in which telomerase is abnormally expressed by inhibiting or targeting telomerase, and to diagnose cancer by measuring telomerase activity. We are also working to develop product candidates to treat various degenerative diseases by the controlled activation of telomerase.

Human embryonic stem cells can develop and differentiate into all cells and tissues in the body. As such, they are a potential source for the manufacture of replacement cells and tissues for organ repair applications in chronic diseases.

Geron

You can find more information about telomerase and Geron's cancer programs here:

Cancer is a group of diseases characterized by the uncontrolled growth and spread of abnormal cells. The American Cancer Society estimates that approximately 1.4 million new cancer cases will be diagnosed in the year 2005. Overall annual costs associated with cancer in 2004 were $189.8 billion in the United States alone. Because telomerase is detectable in more than 30 human cancer types and in the great majority of cancer samples studied, we believe that telomerase-based drugs could overcome the limitations of current cancer therapies and potentially be broadly applicable and highly specific drug treatments for cancer.

We, our collaborators and our licensees, are developing a range of anti-cancer therapies based on telomerase inhibitors, telomerase therapeutic vaccines and telomerase-based oncolytic (cancer-killing) viruses, and diagnostics based on telomerase detection. We believe telomerase is an ideal target for cancer therapeutics and diagnostics because it appears to be both universal—it is expressed in all major types of cancers studied to date—and specific—it is not expressed in most normal cells. We believe that we have the dominant patent position in the field of telomerase. Whether it is achieved by us or by our collaborators and licensees, we believe that progress in the development of any of these telomerase-based cancer therapeutics will further validate the importance of telomerase as a cancer target and therefore benefit all of our telomerase cancer programs.

This page tells you about Geron's Telomerase Cancer Vaccine (TVAX).

The goal of therapeutic cancer vaccines is to “teach” the patient’s own immune system to attack cancer cells while sparing other cells. This is done by exposing the immune system to a substance (antigen) that is specific to cancer cells, inducing an immune response to any cells that present that antigen. We believe that telomerase’s characteristics make it an ideal antigen for cancer vaccines.

...In 2004, we acquired rights from Argos Therapeutics, Inc. (formerly Merix) to commercialize the ex vivo dendritic cell processing technology used in the Duke clinical trial for telomerase and any other defined tumor-specific antigens. We own the rights to the telomerase antigen and its use in therapeutic vaccines. We have also granted a non-exclusive license to Dendreon Corporation to develop an ex vivo telomerase vaccine using Dendreon’s antigen-presenting system.

In 2005, we entered into a collaboration and license agreement with Merck & Co., Inc. to develop a cancer vaccine targeting telomerase utilizing Merck's expertise in vaccine technologies. Geron and Merck have jointly developed a research and development plan to optimize and expedite the demonstration of efficacy and tolerability of a potential vaccine against telomerase using Merck's platform. Meanwhile, Geron will continue to develop its dendritic cell-based vaccine described above.

Here is a scathing critique of Geron. This article outlines The Stem Cells Patent Landscape, and Geron's place in it. Geron is in bed with other chem/pharm companies, part of the "Life Sciences" group.

These international corporations produce toxic chemicals - and also manufacture medications to treat the symptoms and chronic illnesses that their toxins trigger. This article has great information about international corporations that make toxic chemicals and drugs too.

Poison For Profit

The huge transnational companies that produce toxic chemicals found in pesticides, herbicides and industrial and household products profit not only from the sale of these products, but also from the symptoms and chronic illnesses that they can trigger. ...The vast majority of chemicals found in pesticides and other products, undergo little or no testing for chronic, low level exposures and for chronic health effects. ...The same chemical companies that produce toxic chemicals also produce prescription drugs, veterinary medicines, a wide array of medical products and imaging technologies, hold cancer treatment and medical device patents, and a produce a staggering assortment of over-the-counter palliatives.

Families with toxin induced illnesses often spend large sums for drugs and medical treatment. ...This circle of profit is not conspiracy theory, but an easily provable fact.

Below are chem/pharm web sites for the largest companies in the world. There you can see quickly and clearly that these companies profit from all sides of the picture.

This business article on "Life Sciences" corporations is very comprehensive from the business perspective - and shows the percentages of total income that the Big Pharma companies earn on agro-chemicals and products, healthcare and drugs, and specialty chemicals units, for example.

The combination of pharmaceuticals and agribusiness--often with a large dose of biotechnology--seemed like a good strategic fit. ...Rampant consolidation in agrochemicals and pharmaceuticals makes it difficult to compete with less than world-scale businesses. Troubles in the agricultural biotechnology area may add to the desire to put some distance between different business units. And many claim that the anticipated R&D synergies did not materialize.

"Life sciences companies"--maybe without the moniker, but with the requisite businesses--had existed for many years. Major drug firms--including Eli Lilly & Co., American Home Products (AHP), Abbott Laboratories, and Merck--had long held agricultural, and even some chemical, operations, along with their better known pharmaceuticals. But the life sciences label didn't come into vogue until 1993, when ICI split off its agrochemicals, drugs, and specialty chemicals units to create Zeneca. ...Three years later, Sandoz and Ciba-Geigy split off their chemical operations and put the remaining drug and ag units together as the life sciences company Novartis. In 1997, Monsanto moved its chemical businesses into Solutia and became a life sciences company, fulfilling then-chief executive officer Robert Shapiro's vision. ..."We're creating a new kind of company dedicated to meeting growing global needs for nutrition and health," he said at the time. "This will be a fast-moving, technology-driven, intensely competitive global business." Shapiro subsequently spent $6 billion or more on agbiotech and seed company acquisitions.

Starting in 1997, DuPont began a widely publicized life sciences buying spree to create a platform for growth. It spent $13.5 billion in cash and stock to buy seed producer Pioneer Hi-Bred, soy processor Protein Technologies, and Merck's 50% stake in DuPont Merck Pharmaceutical. Dow Chemical, meanwhile, was building up its agrochemical and agbiotech businesses. Hoechst and Rhône-Poulenc quickly followed suit by creating the chemical companies Celanese and Rhodia, respectively, and merging their remaining operations as Aventis in December 1999. A few years before, Hoechst had spent about $11 billion to build up its drugs and agriculture businesses, while Rhône-Poulenc spent about $7 billion on drug buys. Aventis was hailed as the "new world leader in life sciences, holding top position.

BUSINESS Volume 79, NEWS ANALYSIS: LIFE SCIENCES

Here's a bit of dirt:

U.S. SETTLES $1.8 MILLION POLLUTION CASE WITH MERCK AND MONSANTO

Companies quietly use mergers, spinoffs to cut worker benefits


Here is a quick outline of what's on the table, and how it will be dealt with in Europe:

08 February 2006

The European Commission recently proposed a new EU Regulation concerning socalled advanced therapy medicinal products (gene therapy products, somatic cell products and tissue engineered products).1 The proposed legislation establishes specific rules concerning the authorization, supervision and pharmacovigilance of advanced therapy medicinal products. The approach is based on a single, integrated European regulatory framework for all such products. The legislation, which if adopted will be directly applicable in all 25 EU Member States, will be of importance to innovative companies active in these fields....

United States: New EU Rules Proposed For Gene, Cell And Tissue Engineered Therapies

Healthcare is international Big Business, inextricably intertwined with other international Big Businesses - and decisions are taken to maximize profits, not to benefit mankind.

It is the law that corporations must put profits first, before any and all other considerations. Whether your healthcare provider is government funded or covered by private insurance, all the technologies, drugs, devices, and supplies come from the same international corporations.





" Slaves lose everything in their chains, even the desire of escaping from them" - Rousseau



[edit on 1-3-2006 by soficrow]

So...still no answer as to why a socialized government would prevent a known cure from being used, thus cutting health care costs and line their pockets instead of paying for chronic health care?

~MFP

Originally posted by bsl4doc
So...still no answer as to why a socialized government would prevent a known cure from being used, thus cutting health care costs and line their pockets instead of paying for chronic health care?

~MFP

This thread is about telomerase, cancer and related topics.

If you want to pursue your topic further, I suggest you start a new thread.

Considering the "conspiracy" in the health care industry was brought up on the first page, I feel it is directly related to the discovery and distribution of a cancer cure.

Oh, and your first post, found on page two, was regarding health care:

The business perspective is important - and FYI - countries with socialized medicine use the same reinsurance companies as do private insurance providers. So the rules are set internationally regarding coverage and how the industry works in terms of money flow.

This was several posts before I jumped in, so perhaps you shouldn't be chastising people for discussing health care?

~MFP

Originally posted by JoJo the religious man

Yes we can now go back to topic!

I am not sure how we started arguing about healthcare systems, but as long as its over.

I'm workin on it JoJo.

Doin my best.

Trying my darndest to stick to the enzyme...

Did you notice all the research I did on telomerase and Geron and the related international industry? It's posted above.


.

Seriously, soficrow, why can you not come up with an answer to my question? Do you just avoid difficulties in life? Or are you just afraid to admit you may be wrong?

bsl4doc, you haven't accounted for the ability and proven willingness of private firms, especially international businesses, to abuse the government contracting process to attain dominance over cheaper, safer alternatives.

In this way the people of a state pay a premium to be injured, and the officials are payed to remain compliant. If people have enough information to make good decisions about their health in America, it doesn't show. Maybe Italy is remarkably different in that respect, in terms of education and citizen awareness, but I doubt it. I would think the burden of proof would be on you, in that case. I only ever knew one Italian, and he was a hard-driving little man with an overactive libido, who swore constantly, so I don't have much to go on.

The vaccine for cancer is proper living, basically, I agree with you on that. If you can find a place to live, untouched by major pollution, so much the better. Generally though, our hollow, poisonous diet in America, our lack of proper breathing, our chronic insomnia, our stress levels, our nearsighted medical practices (over-prescription of antibiotics and the like), and our bad habits, do the lion's share of the damage.

What sort of situation is it in Italy, why don't you tell us? How does Italy's average lifestyle contribute to their susceptibility to various cancers?

As far as telemorase research, it's the cure for cancer and just about everything else, if properly adapted. Depending on what shape the research takes, going forward, we could be looking at a fountain of youth type situation. Really, cancer in and of itself is an encrypted fountain of youth, if you think about it. There's only a couple of human cell types that have the potential to reproduce almost endlessly, cancer and stem cells. If you could direct the growth, and turn it on and off, cancer would be a marvellous rehabillitative device. Got a busted knee, let's put some cancer in there and it'll fix 'er right up.

I think, given that, it's safe to say the poor will not be given free samples of cancer for much longer. As soon as cancer becomes profitable, expect poor folks to stop contracting it. My God, it would be a semblance of equality!

No self-respecting state wants that, so the aim will be to keep the cost of the treatment artificially high, thus denying access to anyone not in a position of wealth, power, or prestige. I wouldn't have such a problem with that if people with wealth, power, and prestige were more virtuous on average.

Also, bsl4doc, have you accounted for the cost in retirement for those folks in Italy who are hypothetically being manipulated by pharma proxies in the form of government health officials? Are you sure it wouldn't make financial sense for the Italian government to deny people a cure, given that an early death looks good on the balance sheet as far as elder care expenses. Obviously, that's pretty horrific, and we should all hope nothing of the sort is going on, but from a purely hypothetical standpoint, I think you haven't considered the numbers very carefully, and you haven't accounted at all for simple human greed (bribes and the like).

[edit on 2-3-2006 by WyrdeOne]

Wyrde, I agree with you on the elderly/terminal care. I think there are most certainly cases where someone who a doctor knows will most likely be back in 2 months despite the treatment given may not be given the most aggressive treatment possible due to cost. That's a very plausible scenario. What I DON'T see as a plausible scenario is the pharmaceutical companies somehow with holding a cure for a disease in an attempt to make more money in a socialized government. A great deal of cancer research is focused in a few main fields: enzymes (telomerase, for example), some forms of stem cells, and therapeutics. Now, considering there are three major research universities in Italy alone, and no professor would sign away publishing rights due to the clause in all university contracts that states a lack of adequate publications means termination, I highly doubt that a cure has been found. Some university somewhere would have published a paper on it. As Soficrow pointed out, industries use universities as a funding sinkhole so that they're own research has a nice university stamp on it. All this research, however, remains the posession of the Ph.D. / head researcher and it is her sole discretion to publish it or not. I highly doubt any university level researcher would decide NOT to attain the status a cancer cure would grant them. Greed is a powerful tool, and publishing a paper like that would most certainly reap benefits.

~MFP