Your views on the Israel - Palestine Situation.

I have read a lot of posts regarding the situation between Israel and Palestine on this board. There are a lot of �news� threads where users report different terrorist attacks made by Palestinian terrorists against Israel. And there are also some threads where users tell about attacks by Israel on targets in Palestine or how Israel continues their oppression of the Palestine people. I have seen the occasional user here, posting some of their views on these threads, but I don�t feel that I have read enough of those to get a good grip on how the different users of ATS sees the situation. So, what I want to know is; more about how you see the situation. Are you taking sides? Do you believe in the roadmap for peace? What do you think of the planned wall? And of course� Do you see any good ways for this situation to end peacefully? Will Israel have to pull out and stop their oppression of the Palestine people first? Or do we have to rely on the Palestine terrorist stopping their attacks first, before we can expect Israel to do anything?

The whole situation is making me quite depressed. Right now everything is just going in a loop of terror and death.

Palestinian terrorists bomb civilian targets in Israel, because Israel is attacking targets in Palestine... because Palestinian terrorists have attacked targets in Israel, because Israel have been attacking targets in Palestine... and so on, and so on. There are two sides manifesting terror here, and that�s the Israeli Government/Military and the Palestinian terrorist groups. And there are two sides suffering the consequences, and that�s the people of Israel (who has to live in fear of new terrorist attacks every day) and the people of Palestine (who is being oppressed by the Israeli military at home). Somewhere it has to stop. But the way I see it, with the latest development, it won�t. Israel is continuing their oppression of the Palestinian people, and Palestinian terrorist groups are continuing their attacks on the Israeli people. And now Sharon is planning this #ed up wall, which I think will only piss off more people and cause more terror.

I personally give my support to the Palestinian people, as they are the ones being #ed over by another country. And at the same time I have sympathy for the Israeli people who live in fear every day. The way I see it, Israel have to take the first step towards stopping their oppression of the Palestine people before we can expect the Palestinian terrorists to stop the killing. Israel can�t go on retaliating every terrorist attack and at the same time continue to # the Palestine people over� It�s will only work as fuel for hatred.

I don�t have a lot of knowledge of this conflict. All I want is to find out what views the users of Above Top Secret have on the situation.

PS: This is my very first Thread on the ATS Forum, so go easy on me, hehe. I did run a few searches to see if users before me had made similar threads, but I actually didn�t find any� except from the occasional news report with a few comments

Do a little more research a see who is doing what to who. To assume it is the Israelis doing the messing up is to not look at the other Arab nations.

Unless you personally are either Israeli or Palestinian, you are on very dangerous ground when supporting one side over the other.

The conflict is based in history, legend and religion that dates back centuries. You need to understand both sides, look at both sets of aims and actions over many years. Then you need to take into account outside influences. You even need to look at the reasons for the creation of the state of Israel too.

If you can gather all of these facts and more you are then qualified to have an opinion on who is to blame. But it will still only ever be an opinion. The facts about the conflict are often shrouded by emotion and politics and therefore it is very difficult to actually get a clear picture of who has been responsible for what.

In my opinion, the current conflict will not end whilst Arafat lives. A lot of what you see today is in direct connection with his attempts to cling onto power. The Palestinian Government are a lot like some of the Arab states who use created enemies to retain their grip on their population.
But there is no guarantee that things will be any more peacable after Arafat's death. In all likelihood someone else will fill the void and fight a power struggle against his own political opponents whilst using the intifada as an excuse to keep power.

Well both sides are losing thanks to Israel's magnificent policy on bulldozing shops and homes and palestine's brillant policy on blowing up babies and coffee shops.

I mean damnit on the one hand some foreign invader is bulldozing your god damn home and shop

On the other one your settlers are getting blown the hell up, you can't even get a cup of coffee without something blowing the hell up.

Although I support palestine's cause I do not support the means of accomplishing it. It would be a great hassle but if they attacked ONLY check points and military installations Israel will seem like the bad guy here.

I have very strong views on this issue but Im not going to get into it.

It always end up getting in a bad mood.

[Edited on 5-10-2003 by Ocelot]

Originally posted by AntiSystem
I personally give my support to the Palestinian people, as they are the ones being #ed over by another country. And at the same time I have sympathy for the Israeli people who live in fear every day. The way I see it, Israel have to take the first step towards stopping their oppression of the Palestine people before we can expect the Palestinian terrorists to stop the killing. Israel can�t go on retaliating every terrorist attack and at the same time continue to # the Palestine people over� It�s will only work as fuel for hatred.

Israel has taken the first step, many times.

Let me quote from an Al-Jazeera article. Keep in mind that Al-Jazeera is Arabic news, and has a pro-Palestinian-Arab slant.

From trainee lawyer to Haifa bomber

Sunday 05 October 2003, 8:07 Makka Time, 5:07 GMT

There was little that was unusual about the way Hanadi Jarahat left home Saturday morning.
Apart from the fact she departed slightly earlier than normal, there was nothing in her behaviour to suggest that she did not intend to come back.
Evading the closures Israel had imposed since the beginning of the al-Aqsa Intifada, and tightened for this week's Yom Kippur holiday, the 27-year-old apprentice lawyer slipped into Israel with one mission in mind. Revenge.
Once in Haifa, she identified her target as the bustling seaside Maxim restaurant. Shooting a guard to get inside, Hanadi then detonated a load of explosives.
The blast blew out windows and charred much of the restaurant. Television images from the scene showed light fixtures and electrical wires dangling from the shredded ceiling.
Beneath a fog of smoke, blood and bits of broken crockery dotted the floor alongside the severed head of a woman, presumably Hanadi's. Her black hair was tied in a ponytail.
On the steps outside the security guard lay face down, his shaved head and white T-shirt streaked with blood.
Arabs among dead
Dazed people wandered around in swimming trunks after coming back from the beach, where others remained where they were, enjoying the sunny weather as rescue workers carried away the dead. Senior officials of Haifa's professional football team were among the injured.

It is not known whether Hanadi would have acted differently had she been aware Maxim was frequented by Arabs as well as Jews. Whatever the case, at least four Arabs were among the 18 dead, according to Israeli police.
Arabs, who make up 12% of Haifa's population, became citizens of Israel when the Jewish state was created in 1948 in parts of what had been British-mandate Palestine.
Islamic Jihad's military wing, Saraya al-Quds, said later Hanadi had carried out the attack in retaliation for the deaths of several of its leaders in Israeli attacks.
Vengeance
But family members said the motive was closer to home.
"The only thing that would push her to do that would be to avenge my brother's death," her brother Thahir, aged 15, told AP.
On 12 June, Israeli troops who had come to arrest her cousin Salah, a member of Islamic Jihad, killed him and her brother Fadi. She heard the shots and ran outside to help, but the soldiers forced her away.
Hanadi had always been religious, fasting twice a week. After the killings, she fasted during daylight hours every day. She began reading the Quran as well.
Hanadi finished her legal studies in Jordan five years ago and was supposed to finish her apprenticeship the following week before qualifying as a lawyer, said her family. They were shocked to hear she was responsible for the bombing.
"But we are receiving congratulations from people," Thahir said.
"Why should we cry? It's like her wedding today, the happiest day for her," he said.

Thahir is her brother. He celebrates her death, this woman who was a week from ending her apprenticeship to become a lawyer, as though it was her wedding.

This is the sick culture of death Israel has to deal with. It's this worship of death that has to change before any peace negotiation can be real.


[Edited on 5-10-2003 by Mycroft]

Maybe the Palestinians will someday achieve their goal and become independent? It's just a vision, but what's happening today may lead to a cooling in their conflict.
Soon half of the Jews in Israel will leave the country. Without 1 million Jews from 2,5 million living there, there'll be more space...

Unless you personally are either Israeli or Palestinian, you are on very dangerous ground when supporting one side over the other

I am supporting the people of both Israel and Palestine, and I�m condemning what certain groups on both sides are doing to the other. I�m not actually taking sides. I have just as much sympathy for the Israeli people as I have for the Palestine people at the same time as I express my anger towards the Palestine terrorists and the Israeli military.

I think some people has gotten me wrong somewhere after I told I support the people of both sides. I do not mean that Israel should expect being terrorised by extreme Palestine groups and that it is justified and understandable. I�m just saying that I believe Israel, as a country is the one side that can actually manage to stop the bloodshed. As we all know, the Palestine terrorists are cold-blooded murderers with twisted and extreme views on various things� they cannot be stopped and they will not stop. They have to stop retaliating each other all the time. �An eye for an eye and all go blind�. I think that if any of the two sides can stop the loop, it is Israel and not the terrorists. They are both retaliating every attack made by the other side� I just can�t see how this will help anyone.

If you can gather all of these facts and more you are then qualified to have an opinion on who is to blame

I must be allowed to have an opinion, but I do agree that I am not qualified to have an opinion on who is to blame, but that not what I�m doing either. I am not saying that anyone is to blame more than the other.

Thahir is her brother. He celebrates her death, this woman who was a week from ending her apprenticeship to become a lawyer, as though it was her wedding.

This is the sick culture of death Israel has to deal with. It's this worship of death that has to change before any peace negotiation can be real.

Yeah, of course this is sick, and when I say I support Palestine I mean that I support the Palestine people� not these few extreme people. Not all Palestine people support terrorism. The same thing goes for Israel, I support the Israel people, and not it�s violent Government.

Israel has taken the first step, many times.

Yes, but they are still continuing their oppression and retaliation. This is what the terrorists on the other side are doing also. Israel is dealing with terrorism, and they are only giving fuel for hatred when they retaliate. I�m not saying that the terrorists are not earning the retaliations, I�m just saying that we can�t expect the terrorists to be the ones to stop� they are terrorists�. cold-blooded terrorists.

So, everyone is caught in an ever-going loop of bloodshed. I don�t see Israel (I�m saying Israel because I�m talking about the Israeli government/military) stopping when they are constant victims of terror and I can�t see the Palestinian terrorists stopping either. It�s a dangerous eye for an eye game and I�m not siding with anyone except from the people of Israel and the people of Palestine.


[Edited on 5-10-2003 by AntiSystem]

You can't say Israel is wrong and the terrorist are wrong cause all some folk will see is that you said Israel is wrong. I believe Israel is wrong that's my position and position was your orginal question, right ???

There should most definitely be a independent Palestinian state and all Palestinians now exiled should be allowed to the right of return into Palestine. Israel should end it's policies of genocide and be held accountable for all the damage done to the Palestinian infrastructure.

It doesn't matter what I think though, because there will never be peace too many folk fighting against it on both sides. Terrorist are created and trust is broken by terrorist so nobody there is ready to take the same leap of faith in humanity that they willing take for an absent god.

I admit my opinion of Israel is low because to me it shouldn't exist (white men and their religion). Nobody came to the aide of the natives around the world when they were the victims of genocide or Africans for that matter--assimilation or death is what they were offered and it's what Israel tried to offer the Palestinians. They chose death but since we live in a global community it's been a slow process.

The state of Israel should have never been established on top of Palestine and i already know some of you don't think there was a Palestine, to that i say grow up.

I don't believe god promised any land to any people and if he did those people no longer exist. Any American could convert to Judaism and claim a right to that land and there are many, many American Christians and Jews over there now fighting to keep their biblical lunacy alive. What am I saying? There are many, many American Christians and Jews over here fighting for that same purpose.

hypocrisy--for god so loved the world that he blew it up and rebuilt it.

welcome to the slipperly slope that is opinions.

Both sides need to stop the killing, both sides need to get a nation.



Nothing more to it.. the war has been going on since.. forever?

Originally posted by AntiSystem
Yeah, of course this is sick, and when I say I support Palestine I mean that I support the Palestine people� not these few extreme people. Not all Palestine people support terrorism. The same thing goes for Israel, I support the Israel people, and not it�s violent Government.

Recent polls show that 70% of the Palestinian-Arabs support suicide bombings.

Originally posted by AntiSystem
Yes, but they are still continuing their oppression and retaliation. This is what the terrorists on the other side are doing also. Israel is dealing with terrorism, and they are only giving fuel for hatred when they retaliate. I�m not saying that the terrorists are not earning the retaliations, I�m just saying that we can�t expect the terrorists to be the ones to stop� they are terrorists�. cold-blooded terrorists.

Israel is very selective in its anti-terrorist actions. The media presents it as retaliation but that�s not accurate. It is an ongoing struggle.

Originally posted by AntiSystem
So, everyone is caught in an ever-going loop of bloodshed. I don�t see Israel (I�m saying Israel because I�m talking about the Israeli government/military) stopping when they are constant victims of terror and I can�t see the Palestinian terrorists stopping either. It�s a dangerous eye for an eye game and I�m not siding with anyone except from the people of Israel and the people of Palestine.

The problem is that the Palestinian-Arabs don�t have leadership that�s willing to stop the terror. There are no Palestinina-Arab moderates, at least none that are organized that can take on leadership roles. The Palestinian Authority, the closest thing they have to a government, is made up of former terrorists. Another problem is the terrorists are funded by other sources. Saudi citizens, Syria, Iran.

When will it stop?

Look at the IRA and the UK. The UK didn�t do anything, didn�t change any policy to stop the IRA terror. The Cold War ended, the IRA stopped getting Soviet funding, and their leadership got tired of killing people and decided to stop. Now they have peace (mostly.)

Look at Peru. They have terror under control because the government cracked down on it hard. It wasn�t pretty, they had to do some terrible things, but in the long run fewer people will suffer because they won, they put an end to terror.

In neither of these cases did the solution involve capitulation to terrorists.

Originally posted by FULCRUM
Both sides need to stop the killing, both sides need to get a nation.

Nothing more to it.. the war has been going on since.. forever?

I think that Palistine should stop first and if they dont, I want Isreal to take over.
Palestine terrorist are aimng at civilians but Iseral is not aiming at civilians but are just reacting to the terror.
Where do you see Iseral masscre people for religon?
# Palestine!!!!

and to get paid to suicide bomb somebody is downright a dirty tactic...
i mean there are souls attached to that bomb...
and then families then get paid money for such actions and are then praised like in some form of idolotry...

yet our own president has commited some grave sins regarding war and death across border lines such as the actions of a demagogue...

i for one am also a man and without sin, but the death of innocence for ignorance is not right...

Originally posted by FULCRUM
Both sides need to stop the killing, both sides need to get a nation.

Unfortunately that is what Palestine wants, but Israel wont give it to them. Vicious circle, vicious.

joseph was buried in present israel(supposedly) and the brothers and sons of jacob died in khemet(egypt)...

then who are the present day jews...

are they descendents of the exodus...

and the land they once thrived on that was promised to them from god where joseph was buried is the israel state?!?...

but could they not learn a lesson from their previous experience about the blessing the father gives those who love and share...

or is the situation that intense where the palestenians will not honestly be at peace with israel?!...

Israel and Palestine, well the only true feeling I have is anger, anger at the situation. Neither side is right or entirely wrong. The reason though I believe a lot of people support the Palestinian cause is that Palestinians are the under dogs, they are under occupation. Israel is stronger and isn't afraid to show it.

I don't support Hamas, Islamic Jihad or al-aqsa Matryrs brigade, they are a huge part of the problem. However I see the innocent Palestinians as equal to the innocent Israeli's. Only the Israeli's are NOT under occupation, they feel the force of the suicide attacks.
Why should the quality of life for ordinary Palestinians suffer because of the actions of the extremists? this is no different in my eyes than the suicide bombers who target civilians in response to the actions of the Israeli army.

I don't believe a two state solution is possible, I think both sides need to live in one state, with Palestinian's given the same rights as Israeli's. Both sides can come together to destroy the motivation of the extremists on both sides. The terrorist groups only survive because they have some popular support, and they only have support because of the Israeli attacks that kill civilians.

I don't believe Arafat has to go, he is by no means the perfect leader, but neither is Ariel Sharon.

This Post

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this is certainly a can of worms, yes, but a lot of you have seemed to have forgotten the REAL cause behind both sides and their inflated conflict.

with the intifada, weapons sales are up, especially on the Israeli side. notice how the IDF loves to "defend" itself with helicopters and f16's against foot soldiers? keep in mind the chemical fuel costs that keep those vehicles running, and you have a big part of the whole agenda.

the IDF strike in Syria, for instance, probably was worth $5-17 million. notice the currency of choice was USD$, because the US supplies both sides with arms, but more notably, the IDF.

I am technically for Palestinians, but I do not think that the area deserves segregation. the state should be arab primarily, for political purposes, but should have a culture and society that benefits both the yin and yang diversified portions of the cultures.

so what do you do? burn up all the oil in saudi arabia, iran, iraq, and israel will disappear. without the oil to boost the profitability of maintaining the Israeli regime, the western progenitors will pull out faster than a drunk nerd on speed.

Recent polls show that 70% of the Palestinian-Arabs support suicide bombings.

I have read similar numbers before. I try not to care too much about statistics like that though. I do of course not agree with those who support suicide bombing, and even though it might be 70% of Palestinian Arabs, it�s not all of them. They support them because they hate Israel after years of oppression, and because they are fed propaganda all the time. Same thing goes for the People of Israel. I don't have any numbers here, but after years of living in fear of terror, it's also natural for them to support what their government is doing to fight it. I still support the people of both sides, unless they have direct intentions to hurt other people

Israel is very selective in its anti-terrorist actions. The media presents it as retaliation but that�s not accurate. It is an ongoing struggle.

Whenever Palestinian terrorists bombs anything in Israel, the Israeli military attack targets where they believe they can take out terrorists. Hamas carry out terrorist actions in Israel - Israel takes out Hamas leaders. Of course they are selective in their-anti terrorist actions, but they can be characterized as retaliations... as they are attacking because they have been attacked themselves. But, Retaliations or not, there will be bloodshed as long as violent people on both sides take action. Some actions are clear retaliations, but there are of course anti-terrorist actions carried out by Israel, where they target what they have been informed are terrorist training camps and such... as a part in the ongoing struggle against the Palestinian terrorists. Those attacks will anyway be answered with more terrorist actions by terrorist organizations.

The problem is that the Palestinian-Arabs don�t have leadership that�s willing to stop the terror. There are no Palestinina-Arab moderates, at least none that are organized that can take on leadership roles. The Palestinian Authority, the closest thing they have to a government, is made up of former terrorists. Another problem is the terrorists are funded by other sources. Saudi citizens, Syria, Iran.

Yeah. Don�t know if the Palestinian authority would be able to stop it if they wanted either. Palestinian leaders have publicly condemned the terrorist attacks many times, but that is of little help. As you said, the various terrorist organisations are also funded by other sources.

It�s extremely hard, if not impossible to stop the funding of the terrorist organisations. And as long as Israel continues their oppression there will be terrorist attacks and as long as there are terrorist attacks there will be actions taken against the terrorists. And I doubt Israel will stop terrorism by continue what they are doing now. The Terrorists are getting more supporters all the time. They have teenagers blowing themselves up for # sake.

Having been a member here for quite some time I'm familiar with most people's opinions on the situation. Since some folks have gone into more detail over the course of this thread I would like people to continue their posting of their opinions but include in their post the answer to the following question.

If you were each side, what would you (in your desire for peace) do? Which can be translated to mean "What do you think each side should do to attain peace"