Has the U.S. lost all support and credits?

Originally posted by maldives01
Clinton nearly fell because he couldn't keep it in his pants and we were subjected to all that phony remorse - sorry Bill, I admire you and all, but the pics of you getting out of the helicopter with the bible under your arm and looking remorseful were a bit over the top weren't they?

Funny you should mention old *cough* Bill.

Talking about over the top:80 million dollar of tax payers money was used in the investigation into his sex life. Guess how much was spent on the 9/11 attacks investigation?

600.000 dollar.

Originally posted by st3ve_o


shadow i don't want an interent bitch fight, because ive heard soooo many times about how the US rebuilt europe

you certainly never rebuilt britain - the only country the US helped re-build was germany.

but if you want to look at it that way, europe has also donated ($billions) and gave aid to your country after the hurricanes last year (and in previous years).


[edit on 24-2-2006 by st3ve_o]

I never said it was the only country but by far the largest. You cant deny the 13.3 Billion US dollars in the Marshal plan. About equivalent to more than $88 billion late 1990s dollars.

Saying the money only went to rebuild Germany is pure bunk I dont know where you got that from.

Sixteen countries – Austria, Belgium, Denmark, France, Greece, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, The Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Sweden, Turkey, and West Germany – were recipients of Marshall Plan assistance

Oh and the UK as well

ok fair enough i'm not going to search round the net (i trust your info).

but the only point i was making is don't use the...

Originally posted by ShadowXIX
Times like this really show you who your real allies are. Sure everybody loved the US when we helped win WW2 and giving billions to rebuild Europe.

excuse, because the US has had its fair share of donations.

[edit on 24-2-2006 by st3ve_o]

I didnt mean it as a excuse just thats how the cookie crumbles in this world.

When the US is spending billions on europe and losing thousands of soldiers to protect it of course its going to be alot more popular in Europe.

Your best allies stand by you through the popular and unpopular decisions. Im not talking about mindless following either legitmate debate between allies is a asset.

Great topic, Hardtoget. Lots of good input on this thread. I've been hearing ever since we talked about attacking Iraq, that the rest of the world hates us. I've personally seen some posts from Australia that really criticize the U.S. and they seem to really hate us. I myself live in the American South and am American but have travelled extensively throughout the world all my life.
When you scratch the surface and really dig into the truth, it's easy to see why. Bush has done his best to alienate the rest of the world from us with his policies and non-existant foreign policy. (I dont call dropping bombs foreign policy. Whatever happened to diplomacy?) Bush's stated intentions, as written in our foreign policy, is that the U.S. will preemptively strike if they even think another country is not supportive of our present regime. If I lived elsewhere, I wouldn't like that position. Not to mention the many, many rights that have been taken from us in the U.S. This admin is simply riding rough shod over anyone who disagrees with them. Now we are building detention centers. Is that for dissidents? I imagine many Europeans are seeing the same dynamics here that they saw in Hitler's Germany and WWII. I don't blame other countries for being alarmed by what they see us doing. We ARE going down the wrong path. Bush's popularity here in the U.S. is at 39% I've read. That means the majority do not like Bush or his policies.
It's easy to believe that Americans aren't church going if you live in a large city. But here in Tennessee, 99% of the people here are church goers. I'm not Christian but I don't tell anyone because Im afraid of being ostracized or worse.
America is suffering from the same kind of fanaticism and fear that we see with extremist Moslems, except it's Christian fundamentalism here. They want to change our laws so that we are a Christian theocracy and that is the stated goal and official policy of the Christian fundies. If you need proof, just look at how they've infiltrated our school boards.
I am very much afraid for my country. Whatever they plan to do with these new detention centers being built by KBR, it can't be good. Concentration camps/detention centers never are.

And before you tell me I don't love my country and that I'm anti-American, I will tell you that nobody loves their country more than I do. I love the good values that we have stood for before 911. I love freedom, liberty, the right to free speech and religion and I love and cherish our beloved Constitution, which I feel has now been raped and torn apart.
Don't forget it was Bush who said "The Constitution is just a goddamned piece of paper." (sic) THat's reason enough right there to get him and the rest of these neocon creeps out of office.

-Forestlady

-Forestlady

Very well said Forestlady, I did not mean to be rude by replying this late, but I have been off the board for a while, just got back.

I cannot agree more with what you feel the world outside the U.S. is thinking. I am living in Europe and the consensus seems to be (well if there is such a thing) exactly as you say.

The good thing is that Bush´ popularity rates are falling fast, the bad thing is that I´m very afraid of what his plans are to change that. Help!

About religion: See The God That Wasn´t There by Brian Flemming.

This movie seems to suggest a trend is forming that Americans are turning away from faith. Most Christians will disagree, ofcourse.

forestlady
Bush's popularity here in the U.S. is at 39% I've read. That means the majority do not like Bush or his policies.

You heard those figures form the media...which is 75% left wing, of course there going to say that. Where do they get these statistics? From there web site polls, If I have a left wing site, I will get a poll thats shows the majority of people hate Bush...But if I have a right wing website then I will get a higher majority of people who agree with Bush.

The only reason most people hate Bush is Iraq & Katrina. Its now clear that they (the bush administration) was wrong about Iraq having nukes, But 99.9% of the people agreed that Sadaam wasn't a good leader anyway.
And Katrina, well that has allready been broken down in investigations & reports, and the blame lies on many peoples shoulders...But Bush is not one of them. The majority of the blame goes to the former mayor of New Orleans Marc Morial.

Originally posted by Murcielago
Its now clear that they (the bush administration) was wrong about Iraq having nukes, But 99.9% of the people agreed that Sadaam wasn't a good leader anyway.

I think the Prime Minister of the Netherlands is not a good leader too. I will send my tanks into The Hague on monday and remove him from office too.

Come on Murcielago, Saddam being a ´bad leader´ is no legal reason to invade a country.

Most people -- and that includes Americans --- gain their impression of the US and 'what it means to be American' from the media. Most of us -- even if we don't remember it -- gained our impressions of the US and 'American life' from tv and movies: American War Movies, American Wild West movies, American situation comedies. In those movies and tv shows, Americans have always portrayed themselves as heroic, generous, god-fearing, good-looking, fair, just, defenders of the weak and fearless lions when confronting the 'bad guys'.

According to American tv and movies, one American is equal to a hundred 'bad guys'. We see the American hero --- impossibly outnumbered and losing pints of blood per second from multiple gun-shot and stab wounds -- fight his way through dozens of bad-guys. The American hero's bullets never miss. In fact, if American movies and tv are to be believed, one American bullet is capable of passing through and killing at least ten 'bad guys' at once. The American always wins, in these movies and tv shows. He saves the old, the poor, the children and the dog. He grins bravely at the end, his perfect teeth blazing white against his tanned skin. We sigh in relief, knowing another wonderful, decent, kind yet rugged American has saved the day.

In American movies and situation comedies, American houses are filled with huge rooms and lovely furnishings. The American Dad is always so wonderful towards the kids, the neighbours, his wife and friends. The American mothers are always so beautifully dressed, so kind and patient and so filled with wisdom and humour. The American neighbourhoods look so wonderful, the streets so wide and filled with trees, kind neighbours, beautiful lawns, cars, kids on bikes. The American police are so decent and brave. The American government is portrayed as benevolent, ethical, courageous, caring, upstanding, herioc. I mean, what about those GREAT guys in the MIB movies --- how could ANYone ever be afraid of ANYthing when the MIB are there to save the world ? Look at Steve Martin in those 'father' roles he plays, or Dianne Keaton as the mother. How about Robert De Niro in the Meet the Parents movies -- he's ex-CIA; he's spent his entire career protecting America and its people -- what a guy; brave and funny to boot. Or maybe you prefer all those American college movies, where the girls are all blonde and sweet and funny and the guys are all handsome and idiotic (but underneath we just know that they're going to turn into Mr.Brady, or Robert De Niro, or American CIA or honest-lawyers or even Presidents, once they've finished fooling around in college).

In the post-WW2 years, the movies (and later the tv shows) were dominated by stories of how the US 'saved the world' and made it safe for all mankind. America's economy boomed after both world wars. And for those who believe America 'gave' other nations anything, let it be added that the US continues to receive 'repayments' from all those countries. That's right: none of it was free. America made a fortune out of both world wars, just as it's making a fortune out of the wars it's currently involved in. America was selling armaments to Germany AND to the UK during WW2 -- that's what George W Bush's grandfather Prescott was busted over: he was selling bullets to Germany which were used to kill American (and other Allied) servicemen.

After the war, Americans had never had it so good. They made movies and tv shows which minimised the efforts of all other nations or portrayed them as 'evil' or inept. American movies portrayed Americans alone as the 'heroes' and 'good guys'. The majority of returning American military gilded the lily when it came to recounting their war-time experiences. They didn't tell their children about the tens of thousands of German prisoners of war who were deliberately starved to death, for example. They didn't tell their wives about the women and little girls they'd 'liberated' (code for raped) in Europe. They didn't tell anyone about the needless cruelties and indignities they'd inflicted 'over there' in Europe and the Pacific. Nor did they mention the children they'd fathered and deserted, all over the world. No, they were greeted home as heroes and the movies portrayed them as such and didn't bother with little things like the truth.

Japanese orphans, with the skin scorched from 90% of their bodies and their parents, grandparents, siblings and friends reduced to steam by the bombing of Hiroshima .. or the children of Vietnam, with their skin hanging from them in strips from American bombing --- saw all those impossibly wonderful movies that Americans make about themselves. Those children had never seen such wonderful homes and lifestyles as shown in those movies. The orphans loved the Brady Bunch. How wonderful it must be in America, they thought, where everything is clean and everyone has so much to eat, so many lovely things to wear. All over the world, in the aftermath of WW2, people went to the movies to escape the misery and grief of their lives. And Americans watched the same movies -- for the same reasons. Because a lot of Americans weren't having such a great time of it either: a lot of them never have and never will.

So that became the pattern: wage a war, waste entire countries ... and to make all the ugly truths fade away, all you have to do is RE-WRITE history: turn the truth on its head: portray yourselves as heroes: blame everyone else .... and INSIST, in schools, in the media and in history books -- that YOU are the 'good guys', ALWAYS. Then make another movie to show how great you are.

The truth is, if little American kids had been raised in another country (Iraq for example) they would see the US for what it really is. They would be so disappointed in the US and in Americans generally. Just as the world right now is so disillusioned and disappointed in the US and Americans. The REALITY of the US and Americans does not match -- does not live up to -- all the American propaganda as shown repeatedly in tv and movies. Heroes are supposed to defend. Heroes are supposed to be just and fair. Heroes do NOT invade small countries and murder and rape the populace and strip the museums of their priceless art, or shoot old people in the street for target practice, or torture and sodomise people for fun --- and video-tape it so they can have a chuckle about it with their heroic American buddies later. WHERE are the movies that show Americans doing that? Where are the movies which show Bruce Willis and John Wayne and Arnie, sticking a nightstick up the anus of a thirteen year old boy? Where are the 'light, situation comedies' that show Steve Martin forcing little girls to have sex while their grandmothers are beaten into silence in the mud? Where are THOSE American movies?

Where are the movies to show American politicians sitting in luxurious surroundings with zionist pigs, enjoying the best foods and drinks that the American tax-payer can provide ... as they plan which country to invade, rape and destroy next? Who makes THOSE movies .... Michael Moore is about the only person in the US who dares even hint at the reality of what's going on.

But who can blame the average American ... not me. Because *IF* I'd been raised in America: * IF * I'd watched all those 'American Hero' and 'America is the best and ONLY place on the planet' movies and tv shows: *IF* I'd been indoctrinated in falsehoods from birth onwards --- then I'd probably believe the lies too (or would try to) the way a lot of Americans apparently do.

There are close to 6 billion of us on the planet, being dictated and lied to by a handful of genuinely 'evil-doers'. How do they get away with it, you might ask. Well, all you need do in order to understand, is remember how it was at school. Remember all the competition against other schools and other teams? If you were in an average school, you would have known nothing about it at first, until the need to compete was instilled in you. Then you would have been told that this or that school was the lifelong 'enemy' of your own school. You would have been encouraged to believe your school 'had to' beat other schools, for the sake of your own school's 'honour' and 'tradition'. In the same way, as a child, you were taught (whether or not you remember it) that your COUNTRY had to compete against all other nations. And you were taught that YOUR school and YOUR country were 'the best', the most worthy, the one with God on its side. And because you were young, you bought this rubbish and you believed it. Which is how 'they' wanted you to feel, because 'they' plan wars years in advance and ONE day, 'they' wanted to be able to manipulate you and your emotions and insecurity and instilled-competitiveness .... in order 'they' could send YOUR body into war. And in order your parents would accept your return in a body-bag without too much complaint.

It's called 'Divide and Conquer' and it's the game the few have always played upon the many.

So how do a HANDFUL of evil-doers manage to control SIX BILLION people? Easy. They tell them lies, they instill division and competition. They persuade all the separate groups that they are ALL 'in the right'. And then they turn all the groups against each other .... and the handful of evil-doers sit back to watch the fun and reap the profits.

Those handful of evil-doers are able to manipulate and control millions of people in much the same way a school principal is able to control two thousand pupils. It's not difficult if you brainwash those pupils from early infancy; if you instill in them rigid, inflexible beliefs and attitudes and insist that they all compete against each other; for 'grades', for 'honour', for 'a chance at a better future'. Once that's done, the pupils control themselves, according to the blueprint instilled in them by the principal and his staff. Presidents and prime ministers are the principals. Politicians and heads of military play the role of the principal's staff.

It's not only Americans who act like school children. We all do, to some extent. And our world leaders and religious leaders sit back in luxury and laugh as they pull our strings. The string they're pulling at the moment is FEAR. They are encouraging us to be AFRAID that 'bad guys' are going to hurt us. And like morons, we all shake in our boots and decide (as we've been programmed to do) that WE will hurt others before THEY can hurt us. Except we have NO reason to believe that others EVER intended to hurt us at all. Instead, we've *all* been USED by our leaders (and religious leaders) to fight THEIR fight, to hurt people we don't even know, so that our LEADERS can grow richer and more powerful.

Aren't we dumb, huh ?

Originally posted by HardToGet
Come on Murcielago, Saddam being a ´bad leader´ is no legal reason to invade a country.

I agree, and we didn't invade under that context, we invaded because we believed (from fualty intel) that he had chemical weapon buildings, and was aquiring nukes. If we invaded on strictly "bad leadership" then we would be in Iran & NK right now.

I am right wing (which means I'm smarter then all of you (lol, just kidn)). But I do support the President. Iraq is on the right course, and continues to improve. But a possible future threat is Iran...and its obvious that they want the US eliminated, and desperatly want nukes, and they have the nuclear buildings to make it happen. They also said that they would "wipe Israel off the map"...those are pretty bold words.
I am hoping that Iran will get a new leader, and become friends with the rest of the world again...but if not, then I see a war happening within 5 years.

The person that started this thread seems to ignore the following:

Much of the rest of the world hated the US loooonng before GWB.

When countries like England ruled the world...not that long ago... everyone else hated the English.

I'm beginning to think that there is a relationship somewhere there.

If GWB leaves the White House and still nobody likes the US will the person that started this thread still be upset? I truly hope so but I can't answer for that person.

Originally posted by denythestatusquo
The person that started this thread seems to ignore the following:

Much of the rest of the world hated the US loooonng before GWB.

No. Not really. Ofcourse the ones or one in power is always the first to be criticised, but not to the extent we are witnessing right now.

Again, I´m not too worried that GWB is dropping in the poles, I am however very, very worried about what the wolfpack is going to do about it.

(Wolfpack = Bush Sr., Bush Jr. Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice and Wolfowitz)

[edit on 23-4-2006 by HardToGet]

Originally posted by st3ve_o

Originally posted by ShadowXIX
Times like this really show you who your real allies are. Sure everybody loved the US when we helped win WW2 and giving billions to rebuild Europe.

shadow i don't want an interent bitch fight, because ive heard soooo many times about how the US rebuilt europe

you certainly never rebuilt britain - the only country the US helped re-build was germany.

but if you want to look at it that way, europe has also donated ($billions) and gave aid to your country after the hurricanes last year (and in previous years).


[edit on 24-2-2006 by st3ve_o]

The Marshall plan was to give billions of dollars to many European countries after WWII in order to avoid spreading of communism.

Anti-americanism has risen the last decades due to American Foreign Policy. Many people suffer or suffered under US-sponsored dictatorships, stealing history from one country and attributing it to another, military invasions etc.

Masterp thanks for that, i never had heard of the Marshall Plan but i have noticed its form being repeated over and over.

$20 billion for relief, but only if the European nations could get together and draw up a rational plan on how they would use the aid.

I'm sure if you look into which organisations recieved the funds you will find it is a closed loop. And i'm sure representatives from the US sat on the panel with the Euros handing out the Aid. And from this group came the common market, well well well.

It is something like what is happening in Iraq right now, how much has the US spent on supposed relief, infrastructure rebuilding, aid, ect, Most ends back in the pockets of some Haliburton Spawn Inc.

So i guess what i am saying is, i don't think it is right that the US has infiltrated into all our societys in the way they have, when you see them snapping up your local companys, ports, national companys then outsourcing the work back to their buddies who have setup offshore companys on mars, well it just leaves a bitter taste.

All Funding/Grants are not what they ever appear to be.



[edit on 23-4-2006 by The Links]

Originally posted by denythestatusquo
When countries like England ruled the world...not that long ago... everyone else hated the English.

England ruled nothing but a small ammount retail estate in middle/southern area of the british iseles
How ever the UK did own a quarter of the globe

Originally posted by The Links
So i guess what i am saying is, i don't think it is right that the US has infiltrated into all our societys in the way they have

Well spoken.

Not to echo Atlas Shrugged but isn't it common to hate what is good? No industrialized country with a very large population compares to the US in any conceivable way. Compare us to say, India, or China (the other population leaders), and ponder whether or not we are all that bad, or even comparable to them. Comparing the US to small countries seems silly. I am not moving any time soon, and it is not because I am most proficient in American (go to London, it ain't English ) It seems that if the US has lost credibility (see Iraq) it is because humanity demands us to limit casualties (imagine how long our heavy military involvement in Iraq would have lasted if we played by WWII rules with our current tech!!)

Originally posted by AlphaHumana
It seems that if the US has lost credibility (see Iraq) it is because humanity demands us to limit casualties (imagine how long our heavy military involvement in Iraq would have lasted if we played by WWII rules with our current tech!!)

No, the US has lost credibility because they went to war Iraq in the first placedespite huge outcries. The U.S. went to war in Iraq anyway.

When the dust settles, measure it for radiation levels. You might find some depleted uranium here and there...

Originally posted by Murcielago
I agree, and we didn't invade under that context, we invaded because we believed (from fualty intel) that he had chemical weapon buildings, and was aquiring nukes. If we invaded on strictly "bad leadership" then we would be in Iran & NK right now.

Or if "we" invaded for "bad leadership" there would have been a Coup D'etat already in the States. Does he really have to stay in for the next 2 years. Just how much are y'all gonna put up with down there, without getting him outta there?

Originally posted by valkeryie
Just how much are y'all gonna put up with down there, without getting him outta there?

I´m not sure that as an individual you can do much about this, but as a group you might...

Nice discussion going on right now about this subject here: Thread