Has the U.S. lost all support and credits?

Originally posted by Majic
You know, sometimes I get the feeling somebody wants the rest of the world to hate the U.S.

It's almost as if there were some sort of campaign to get people to think that way.

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case. So I concider it a possibility.

But let me tell you that I personally don't have a problem with the American people, however I do have a problem with the U.S. government, and that's not the only government I have a problem with either.

Well I dont know about you lot but I support the US, she's my countries ally and frankly the only one right now that I faguely trust next to france or germany.

Side Order

Originally posted by Strangerous
Or perhaps this is people telling you how they feel and you're hiding behind a paranoic shield of 'it's a campaign, we've done nothing wrong'?

This would be a more likely possibility if I had ever claimed that we've done nothing wrong.

Perhaps you can provide a citation supporting this assumption?

Upon Deeper Reflection

Originally posted by Strangerous
When friends tell you there's a problem there often is

Advice twice as wise to heed as to give.

Hint hint.

Government Of The People

Originally posted by SwearBear
But let me tell you that I personally don't have a problem with the American people, however I do have a problem with the U.S. government, and that's not the only government I have a problem with either.

Funny you should mention that.

I happen to know of a few (well, a few hundred million or so) Americans who have quite a few problems with the U.S. government, so it would seem we all have something in common.

Even some of the most die-hard flag-waving Americans around here have serious issues with what's going on these days. I find it hard to imagine that anyone posting here isn't at least casually acquainted with some of the controversies taking place in the U.S. as of late.

And not just as of late. Despite media portrayals of Americans as uniform in thought and slaves to propaganda, some of us know quite a bit about the sorts of things our government has been up to around the world.

However, just as most Muslims aren't burning embassies right now, most Americans aren't propping up dictators, smuggling drugs, assassinating dissidents, monopolizing markets and laundering money.

Yes, the U.S. does those sorts of things, and plenty more, and we're damn good at it. And no, I won't hide behind our government. I'll take my 1/300 millionth of responsibility for what my government does.

I also agree with a lot of what it does, if not all of it.

Why? Because we have our reasons, and most of them aren't even all that sinister.

But admittedly, some of them are.

The Other End Of The Finger

The key to avoid being reeled in by the puppet masters is to remember that the U.S. isn't the only country that does this sort of thing.

Rather, we happen to be hogging the spotlight lately – as we have for decades.

Look on the other end of the spotlight, and a lot of this starts making a hell of a lot more sense.

Sometime back in another thread I challenged anyone who wanted to present their country as morally superior to the U.S. to step forward and accept the same kind of scrutiny my country does.

One member offered France as an example of a virtuous nation and, with little effort, I think it's fair to say I shot that down pretty quick. It's not because France is bad, or the U.S. either, but rather that the business of nation-states is necessarily a dirty one, if history is any guide (and it's the only one we have).

Is the U.S. perfect? Oh hell no! No amount of propaganda or denial can wash away our sins.

But we're not exactly surrounded by saints, either, friends.

I suggest maintaining a healthy sense of perspective if one wishes to avoid outsourcing one's thinking to others.





P.S. And for those of my fellow members who enjoy critical thinking, here's something to consider. I can't prove it, but I strongly suspect that much of the anti-Bush and anti-U.S. propaganda being pushed on the media actually originates from the Bush administration. Why would they do that? Just something to think about.

Originally posted by SwearBear
Back in 2002-2003 Americans still had lots of respect in my country, but after the Iraqi invasion the tide started to turn. Now only some paranoid kooks support the U.S., because they think the U.S. is handling the "terrorist threat."

You Americans can deny it all you want, but that's how it is anyway.

and your country is...Since i'm taking a shot in the dark here, that it isn't la la land.

They support the US and you instantly label them as kooks.

As for Iraq...Its being proven that many of the suicide bombers & other terrorist have come from Iran...Not suprising really. Ask anyone in the world who they think is going to be the next country attacked, and 99% of them will say Iran. If the US leave Iraq, then its much more unlikely that they will attack Iran, But if they (The US) win...and Iraq becomes free, and has a stable democratic government, then Iran knows the coming fate. The US will do the same to Iran, as it did with Iraq.

Originally posted by Strangerous

Originally posted by MBF
In my opinion, the war in Iraq was not over oil, but because Saddam tried to have Bush#1 killed.

When? where?

Back in 93', when Bush went to Kuwait, they we going to use a car bomb to kill him, but Kuwaiti police arrested people and stopped the plot.

[edit on 9-2-2006 by Murcielago]

Majic
A brief tangent, the so-called anti-americanism is, I think, more of a response to the environment of nationalism and zealous patriotism than anything else. It's a reaction to a perceived imbalance of judgement.

I think most of the people considered 'anti-West' on this board don't actually fit the description very well at all. What most want is an adherence to the values we ostensibly support, but instead we're confronted with endless hypocrisy, on a staggering scale. So, bottom line, most of the people speaking up about America's transgressions seem to be doing so without ulterior motives. They see injustice, they call it out.

Obviously I'm more capable of noticing flaws in America than I am in recognizing flaws in Dubai or Mongolia, simply because I live in America, and not in Dubai, or Mongolia. The majority of the board hails from America, so that's gotta have something to do with it.

And for those of my fellow members who enjoy critical thinking, here's something to consider. I can't prove it, but I strongly suspect that much of the anti-Bush and anti-U.S. propaganda being pushed on the media actually originates from the Bush administration. Why would they do that? Just something to think about.

Indeed, it is something to think about. I know I've thought about it on a number of occasions, and this is what appears to be going on: polarization makes for a predictable populace. Predictability is a pre-requisite of control, and control is the goal. Money is a fabulous tool in that regard, because greedy people are some of the most predictable.

Who benefits from polarized viewpoints that render rational, issue-based discussion nearly impossible? Obviously the people who currently have the power to make decisions, and the people with intimate knowledge of the decisions being made, those who are in a position to capitalize on their insider knowledge.

Partisanship, like racism, is the last resort of the tired, feeble mind. The real, substantive differences between people are few and far between. A few psychos and a few saints aside, most people seem to be benign oppurtunists interested in self-preservation and self-advancement.

We do 'good' to the extent it's easy and painless, and 'evil' to the extent it's expedient and can be concealed, or so it seems. Social pressures play an important role in determining the good-bad barometer of any given individual. So, behaviors that are 'wrong' in the chess team community are often what's 'right' in opposing social groups, like the football team or something similar (phsyical harrassment, crude jokes, pranks, sexual advances, etc.).

Clearly, what's 'right' in cut-throat capitalism is very 'wrong' in the context of a smaller social group like a church or a playground. That friction accounts for a great deal of the confusion in modern Western society, I think.

Are we still on topic? I can't tell...

America: Love It Or Label It

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
What most want is an adherence to the values we ostensibly support, but instead we're confronted with endless hypocrisy, on a staggering scale. So, bottom line, most of the people speaking up about America's transgressions seem to be doing so without ulterior motives. They see injustice, they call it out.

I agree.

Criticizing the U.S. does not make anyone “anti-American”, and again, I think even the most beer-guzzling “America is God's gift to the world” jingoistic red-blooded American stereotype wannabe here or anywhere will agree that there's plenty of things that our fine nation is deserving of criticism for.

Where the agreement will tend to dissolve is in differences of opinion on specific issues.

Good people can disagree on pretty much anything. However, respectful disagreement doesn't tend to serve aggressive ideological agendas.

Debate Incorporated

Hence these disagreements are carefully analyzed, categorized, refined, split into dichotomies and packaged for public consumption under the brand name of “the truth”.

Note that for “the truth” to be “effective”, it must always come with at least one opposing viewpoint (and ideally only one), so that those viewpoints can be coalesced into monolithic blocs of opposing “public opinion”.

A skilled practitioner of public diplomacy can couch any argument in these terms, polarize discussion and use the carefully-crafted tool which results to influence or control public opinion on any subject.

Another term for this practice is divide and conquer, and it's as old as the hills.

There are other names for these methods, many of which overlap, but because those who apply these techniques also tend to be those who supply the information used to reinforce them, I consider all such activities to fall under the aegis of information warfare.

In the Information Age, those who control the information control the world.

Fingerprints Of The Hidden Hand

At the heart of ATS is the notion of Denying Ignorance.

How that is accomplished -- and even the interpretation of the expression itself -- is left open for members to decide. Indeed, if it were otherwise, the motto would itself become an ironic tool of thought control.

In the political debates surrounding the actions of the U.S. and other nations in the modern world, many valid criticisms are raised, and many legitimate grounds for disagreement are explored.

Mixed in with these noble pursuits are elements of propaganda and disinformation. While the presence of these elements need not necessarily taint discussion, it usually does.

Evidence of their influence can be found in the use of certain catch phrases, buzzwords, slogans and other artifacts of opinion engineering. Wherever there's a flame war on ATS, they can be found in abundance.

I think of these things as “shell casings” on the “information battlefield”. Once you become aware of them, you find that they are literally everywhere, and their presence becomes impossible to ignore.

The fact that such terms and expressions offer natural and legitimate methods for simplifying discussions is precisely why they make such effective tools of control.

No one is immune to their effects.

No one.

What You Can Do

The default case is to ignore this aspect of the discussion and not worry about it.

An alternative is to be aware of how various memes are actively and prolifically used to control human behavior.

For what it's worth, this is nothing new, but in the Information Age, this sort of control has taken on new significance.

I don't think it's possible to communicate on the Internet and be free of the grasp of information warriors. But being aware of their techniques and influences can help.

Perhaps the best guide I've found for detecting the effects of mind control on my thinking is to realize that every time I read a news article or other sort of snippet that makes me feel angry or emotional, there's a very good chance that precisely such a reaction was intended.

Appeals to emotion and the use of “inflamed passions” are the oldest tricks in the book and by no means unique to modern times.

Resisting them does not require being an emotionless robot, but rather simply being aware of the tricks of the trade, applying skepticism to all intellectual questions and choosing to consider issues reasonably, rather than emotionally.

I see many “tricks of the trade” in use in this discussion and others on ATS, which is why I like to point them out now and then.

Does it help? Perhaps. Perhaps not. But I still consider it worthwhile to call attention to it when I see it.

Opinions on whether that is warranted may vary.

Wow, I turn my back to find this thread growing with excellent arguments.

I cannot respond to all replies, and I´m surely not going to defend points like questioning my circle of interaction (good post though) I´m simply reporting what I have experienced over the last few years, and warning that I see an escalation of Anti-American sentiments the last few months.

O, it´s not just me, turn on any mainstream media channel which is not American over here in Europe and it is all over the place...

Why? I think it´s wakeup time. I do not think it´s a spin.

Majic, you have some excellent clarity on views, thanks for posting them. However, if you would have to think about what WE can actively and concretely do about it now, what would you and others say?

I´ve just started a thread on an action plan if you will, it is in the New World Order section:

How far are YOU prepared to go to stop the NWO?

Thank you all for your replies to my initial questions.

[edit on 10-2-2006 by HardToGet]

Originally posted by HardToGet
It may be strange, but I cannot remember the last time that anyone told me he or she liked or supported Bush. On the contrary, if the current state of affairs is discussed, people are reacting with very strong and usually negative opinions about the U.S.

Reading through the board I even found a declaration of war against the u.s.in the War on Terrorism forum.

What is going on, and when did the tide turn?

To be honest, I am not an American myself, and live in Europe, but still it is almost like there is some form of general U.S. bashing going on that anything or everything coming out of the USA is strongly opposed or labeled as ´nonsense and lies´.

Not to mention on subjects like:

9/11
Zero Point Energy (who discusses it anyway in public these days you say)
War on Iraq/Terrorism
Environmental issues (Kyoto treaty opposition)

Strange given that the U.S. was very popular not so long ago, and was always respected in Europe.

Maybe it is just that Bush doesn´t do so well in PR. Or public appearances, or anything else for that matter. Personally, my gut turns every time he speaks. All I can think of is ´Lying s.o.b.!´ and I do not know where this is coming from.

More frightening is that now the news media over here are starting to question U.S. judgement more and more, only fueling this aversion against the U.S.

You should see the programs on Dutch television it is absolutely amazing. Stuff that would (could) never be broadcast nationally in the U.S. Stuff on DU, 9/11, War on Terror which would make Michael Moore blush. A while back in England the BBC did broadcast a three part series called "The Power of Nightmares - The rise of the Politics of Fear".

This is a stunning documentary about the fabrication of Al-Queeda and was shown all over Europe.

Well judge for yourself.....

Part I
video.google.com...

Part II
video.google.com...

Part III
video.google.com...

How do Americans amongst themselves feel I wonder. (Easy to ask on this board, duh) But what about the discussions you have amongst your friends, family?

Is anyone in America besides the corporate moguls supporting the current state of affairs?
If everyone is against, isn´t it about time for impeachment? Start by locking up the entire Carlyle group!

I do not know if this is true, but some programs we see say that if you speak out against the government in the U.S. nowadays, you may very well be labelled as un-patriotic and lose your job.

If so, it´s Animal Farm......

For purpose of argument, America won the cold war and is now the sole World Power or Superstate.
"We are the U.S. and we can do whatever the hell we want so shut up or else..."

It scares the hell out of me and makes me wonder about the future which awaits us.

[edit on 8-2-2006 by HardToGet]

I personally feel safer knowing the U.S is the sole superpower and not, say, the chinese? or russia?. I live in Canada, and although most Canadians do hate 'bush' and his government, I appreciate the U.S.

If the chinese were in power, or some arab country (as a superpower), would they send aide and cash if a tsunami hit the U.S? uh...no. Would they help with any other natural disaster? no. Does the U.S? yes... most of the time

Look, everyone always hates their boss or the guy above them.... it's the same with the U.S. If it were another country, everyone would hate them too.



[edit on 082828p://181810 by porky1981]

Originally posted by porky1981
I personally feel safer knowing the U.S is the sole superpower and not, say, the chinese? or russia?. I live in Canada, and although most Canadians do hate 'bush' and his government, I appreciate the U.S.

Truly now... I would feel a whole lot better if the U.S. openly admitted it is a police state with world domination ambitions, at least that would be honest.

I leave this by quoting William Blum (again) on the dropping of flyers on Afghanistan after 9-11:

from "Rogue State"

There were the many flyers dropped on the people of Afghanistan. Here's one dropped around October 20:

Do you enjoy being ruled by the Taliban? Are you proud to live a life of fear? Are you happy to see the place your family has owned for generations a terrorist training site? Do you want a regime that is turning Afghanistan into the Stone Age and giving Islam a bad name? Are you proud to live under a government that harbors terrorists? Are you proud to live in a nation ruled by extreme fundamentalists? The Taliban have robbed your country of your culture and heritage. They have destroyed your national monuments, and cultural artifacts. They rule by force, violence, and fear based on the advice of foreigners. They insist that their form of Islam is the one and only form, the true form, the divine form. They see themselves as religious experts, even though they are ignorant. They kill, commit injustice, keep you in poverty and claim it is in the name of God.

In the same spirit, the following flyer might be dropped over the United States:

Do you enjoy being ruled by the Republican-Democratic Party? Are you proud to live a life of fear, insecurity and panic? Are you happy to see the place your family has owned for generations taken away by a bank? Do you want a regime that is turning the United States into a police state and giving Christianity a bad name? Are you proud to live under a government that harbors hundreds of terrorists in Miami.? Are you proud to live in a nation ruled by extreme capitalists and religious conservatives? The capitalists have robbed your country of your equality and justice. They have destroyed your national parks and rivers and corrupted your media, your elections and your personal relations. They rule by threat of unemployment, hunger, and homelessness based on the advice of a god called the market. They insist that their form of organizing a society and remaking the world is the one and only form, the true form, the divine form. They see themselves as morality experts, even though they are ignorant. They bomb, invade, assassinate, torture, overthrow, commit injustice, keep you and the world in poverty and claim it is in the name of God.

The man has a way with words. Sorry, just been re-reading Rogue State.

[edit on 24-2-2006 by HardToGet]

Just my two pence worth - I live in England, a country with a much vaunted "special relationship" with the US. I have noticed that the general consensus in England, among people I have contact with, is that the US is on the wrong track. No one here seems to like the American administration and what it is doing. We know we were lied to over Iraq - they were no threat to us really, had no WMD's to speak of and were not as far as I know connected to international terrorism or Al Queda. Didn't Bush, in a speech say that Iraq had no connection to 9-11? I'll see if I can find some links to that - thing is that over the years there has been so much disinfo that it makes ones' head spin!

Point is, extraordinary rendition, mistreatment and torture of prisoners, Fallujah, these all come across as the tactics of an all- powerful nation flexing it's muscles in a very unpleasant way and even people in this country do not like it. I do not in any way mean to cast aspersions on the vast majority of the fine men and women who make up the US Armed Forces either - I'm sure they are doing the best they can under difficult circumstances not of their making.

Katrina - was how long ago? What about the promises that were made to the poor unfortunates who were made homeless and suffered the loss of friends and loved ones? How many are still in the same state they were in then? The world sees the headlines on CNN about evicting them from hotels etc. and they think " they are STILL in temporary accommodation and now they are being thrown out and America is doing nothing" - another hurricane season draws near as well......... Cuba - anyone ever seen how they deal with hurricanes? And this is a relatively undeveloped poor country which has been under a US embargo for years. On the subject of Cuba - Guantanamo Bay. Even Tony Blair called it "an anachronism" Shock Horror - Tony Blair disagreeing with the US admin! I know there are many Americans who feel the same way.

It is correct to say that the image that the world has of the US is deteriorating. The sympathy that the world felt for America after 9-11 is beginning to lessen as well. It is perfectly OK for a friend to tell another friend when they see them doing things which are not right. What are friends for eh? Over the years I have met many Americans and I have to say I've yet to meet one I don't like - I think you're A OK guys, but I don't like the things that your admin is doing in your name, and I don't like the way my government is going along with it in my name either! America, as the only superpower, could be such a force for good in the world - come on guys, the world needs you!

Hope I haven't offended anyone, not my intention at all

[edit on 24-2-2006 by maldives01]

Friendly tip:use the enter key to make your text more easy to read...

Nothing wrong with the content though maldives01, thanks for sharing your views!

HardToGet, I don't understand what your quote from "Rogue State" was meant to imply. The vast majority of the people in the US don't care or listen to the "Christian leaders" so how can they be run by them? I personally don't know a single person who even goes to church even on Christmas or Easter!

9/11 and its aftermath and having the US declare itself a police state to you?! It may take an extra 30 seconds to get to my gate at the airport, but other than that I have not seen a single thing that has changed my life since 9/11. In a real sense, nothing at all has changed for me - If I didn't know what happened on 9/11 and never saw a news broadcast or word about it, I simply wouldn't have noticed a change.

I've been through the UK and the European continent many times... and there isn't really any difference from a visitor's standpoint... except everything closes earlier :p

Originally posted by AlphaHumana
HardToGet, I don't understand what your quote from "Rogue State" was meant to imply. The vast majority of the people in the US don't care or listen to the "Christian leaders" so how can they be run by them? I personally don't know a single person who even goes to church even on Christmas or Easter!

Well, at the very least the administration is giving off the wrong impression that the whole nation is in sync under God. Ref: The First Prince of the Theocratic States of America

9/11 and its aftermath and having the US declare itself a police state to you?! It may take an extra 30 seconds to get to my gate at the airport, but other than that I have not seen a single thing that has changed my life since 9/11. In a real sense, nothing at all has changed for me - If I didn't know what happened on 9/11 and never saw a news broadcast or word about it, I simply wouldn't have noticed a change.

Then why all the protests? Do they come from people who do not live in Florida? You really should do research on the Patriot Act I & II and Homeland Security, the Bill of Rights is no more man. You do not even have to listen to the more radical opposers like Alex Jones to figure that out.

But, while on the subject, watch his 911: Road To Tyranny if you care to take a peek what views countless other Americans share about the Police State emerging. There are hundreds if not thousands of documents and videos pointing that way, and alas very few denying it.

I've been through the UK and the European continent many times... and there isn't really any difference from a visitor's standpoint... except everything closes earlier :p

Hey, come to Spain. We open when the U.K. closes...

I just read your link to the "Despoiling of America" and before saying anything, I need to admit that I've never heard of "Katherine Yurica"... and well, "image from GQ magazine" yeah, it's cute, I hope we all remember that Johnny Cash song in phase with the George Bush "When the Man Comes Around" video lol!

But I think the religious connection to US politics is not really all that proportional. From my experience not many people at all here (US) even think about their religion, it's just (like in most countries I'd imagine) the noisy ones that make it into the media. I mean, I'm a Protestant Christian (I guess), I haven't been to church in probably 10 years... but the basic "do onto to others as you wish bedone onto you" sounds pretty reasonable to me... Oh yeah, and I buy a Christmas tree in December

The whole Pat Robertson connection with Bush is interesting, if it's entirely true, but maybe it's not - I remember a CNN (gasp!) report of Bush and Robertson having some kind of tiff back in 2004 (circa), I'm sure you can locate it if you wanted.

The US is pegged officially at around 51% Protestant, 20something% Catholic, I think 2 or 3%Jewish and the rest other... I think it would be EXTREMELY interesting to see what the ceremonial attendance is for these groups (I stated my "religiosity" above, yet I am a Protestant Christian member of the Dutch Reform church on my census form.) I mean, I consider myself Christian, but am I?^^

Regarding the Alex Jones tape, I dunno, I haven't seen it, but I was forced through Farenheit 9/11 by my mother (!!!) I heard enough from many other people to see Mr. Jones as sensationalist at the very least.

I didn't know you were from Spain, HardToGet, forgive me, I just assumed you were British. Though I don't know if you're Spanish or just living in Spain, I'm sure you have plenty of interesting insights onto the topic we're discussing... I remember Spain (govt, anyway) has a relationship with both the US and the UK that has been greatly understated and discussed very seldomly other than the atrocities your people suffered through along the rail-lines in Madrid.

from a UK point of view.

i think BEFORE 9/11 britain was the most hated country (due to our history)!!

since 9/11 i feel america as taken on that role.

me personally i have no problems with any americans, its your govenment i don't trust, to me they are the real life OCP's from robocop.

after 9/11 EVERY country in the world sympathised with you, but your govenment gave this "nobody hits us!" attitude.

alfganistan, iraq (maybe iran, syria) all this is just one BIG cover-up you know - i think 9/11 was the perfect excuse to contol the middle-eastern oil fields (anyone with half of brain cell can work that out)

we are seeing it with the food for oil plan (yet more oil will go from iraq than we put in).

its just one big hidden lye hidding behind 3 words "WAR ON TERRORISM" - war on iraq as cost the US $250 billion (& still rising) do you HONESTLY think they spent this amount on just to free iraq of a 70 year old man (saddam)?

put 2+2 together

britain thought BINGO as well (so they got involved in it), and i GUARANTEE this year when iran starts, france will be involved this time (chirac now knows whats going off) and again we'll see the food for oil plan

the US are the true masterminds behind it though, it just makes you think what all those soilders are thinking who lost their lifes ^FOR POLITCIAL GAIN^ they'll be looking down thinking 'i lost my life for this?'

as said, i have no problems with america, its just your govenment - don't trust them one bit.


[edit on 24-2-2006 by st3ve_o]

Actually Dutch living in Spain married to a French woman.

Hey, I have nothing against religion, even though your President makes toe-curling references and claims to act in the name of God at times... Well. I´ll just leave it because I do intend to respect your beliefs, even they are not mine...

I agree Jones is radical, but from what I have seen about him lately it seems more and more people are starting to listen to him.

On the whole, I agree with him just about 90%. He loses 10 points because I think he is too over the top at times, and therefore is not taken as seriously as he needs to be.

It would be interesting to get your opinion on his documentary about the police state though, so if you wish to run the gauntlet, view this and judge for yourself.

Alex Jones: 911 the Road To Tyranny

Please note this copy is hosted by www.jesus-is-savior-com.... No pun intended!

Edit: This page contains loads more references to other free materials


[edit on 24-2-2006 by HardToGet]

Times like this really show you who your real allies are. Sure everybody loved the US when we helped win WW2 and giving billions to rebuild Europe.

Not that true allies cant disagree with your views or have different opinions. But there was some under handed stuff by "US allies" Then there is just the pure hate in populations of so called freindly countries which is scary.

In a recent soccer game in Mexico City between the US and Mexico the mexicans were chanting "Osama, Osama" during the US national athem. Soccer fans are crazy but thats just pure hate IMO.

Originally posted by ShadowXIX
Times like this really show you who your real allies are. Sure everybody loved the US when we helped win WW2 and giving billions to rebuild Europe.

shadow i don't want an interent bitch fight, because ive heard soooo many times about how the US rebuilt europe you certainly never rebuilt britain - the only country the US helped re-build was germany.

but if you want to look at it that way, europe has also donated ($billions) and gave aid to your country after the hurricanes last year (and in previous years).


[edit on 24-2-2006 by st3ve_o]

HardToGet,

Guess Rumsfeld wouldn't take any notice of our views then as we're both "Old European" ! ( I'm English, living with my Swiss girlfriend!) Have to complement you on your English -

I just wonder with all the scandals etc. coming out - DeLay, Katrina, Rumsfeld emails etc. etc. etc. whether the US admin will ever be bought to task? It's all of these things + the ones that you and others on this thread have mentioned that make you wonder.

Clinton nearly fell because he couldn't keep it in his pants and we were subjected to all that phony remorse - sorry Bill, I admire you and all, but the pics of you getting out of the helicopter with the bible under your arm and looking remorseful were a bit over the top weren't they? There seems to be none of that remorse, not even the phony type, shown by this admin does there? They seem to be totally shameless. No WMD - so what etc. etc. etc.

Seems strange that civilian casualties, or "collateral damage", corruption, illegal wiretapping et al, (which are infinitely worse than a minor sexual transgression and a few untruths vis a vis "relations with that woman"), do not warrant any show of well, contriteness on their part. This is what the rest of the world don't like.

As I recall, Clinton was getting a caning from the religious movements in the US and obviously felt the need to show that he had, well, seen the light. Maybe there is something to the religious angle, not sure how or why though.

Come on America, we, your friends in other parts of the world are not telling you these things to put you down or because we're jealous, or we don't like you - it's because we do like you