100's of Muslims protest Muhammad cartoons in London…But how many protest terror?

Beachcoma is obviously on a losing streak, he is merely trying to point out a simple fact that these hardliners are not representative of the whole of Islam and his comments are dismissed and he is told it is not the people on this board who need to be convinced, then a few posts later a French newspaper is applauded for reprinting the cartoons plus a few of it's own which at this point in proceedings is merely inflaming an already tense situation and serving no purpose other than that. Much as the muslim extremists are using religious principles for their own ends the principle of free speech is being hijacked now IMO. People are taking a stance and refusing to budge. He's also made some valid points with regards to problem muslim countries and the socio-economic situations that can have a massive influence on events and posts examples of how hardliners have not been tolerated or accepted by moderates. If their is conflict it takes both sides to help resolve it like it or not.

As regards to free speech if someone from NAMBLA was standing on a street corner and calling for peadophilia to be legalised and handing out cartoons of men kissing young boys would you condemn the guy or group who gave him a smacking, or call for justice to be served on them for their aggression, I know I wouldn't but I recognise that free speech isn't quite the immovable and objective concept we all like to think it is.

Finally, a prominant Muslim speaks out:

"Islam says it's all right to demonstrate but not to resort to violence. This must stop,"

Islamic Groups Call for End to Riots

Police shot four protesters to death Wednesday to stop hundreds from marching on a southern U.S. military base, as Islamic organizations called for an end to deadly rioting across the Muslim world over drawings of the Prophet Muhammad.

"Islam says it's all right to demonstrate but not to resort to violence. This must stop," said senior cleric Mohammed Usman, a member of the Ulama Council _ Afghanistan's top Islamic organization. "We condemn the cartoons but this does not justify violence. These rioters are defaming the name of Islam."

Other members of the council went on radio and television Wednesday to appeal for calm. It followed a statement released Tuesday by the United Nations, European Union and the world's largest Islamic group urging an end to violence.

You know what? They will probably get killed for speaking out.

More on this:

Sheikh Al-Qaradhawi Responds to Cartoons of Prophet Muhammad:

"Whoever is Angered and Does Not Rage in Anger is a Jackass - We are Not a Nation of Jackasses"

In a February 3, 2006 Friday sermon, Sheikh Yousef Al-Qaradhawi, who is head of the European Council for Fatwa and Research, president of the International Association of Muslim Scholars (IAMS), and the spiritual guide of many other Islamist organizations across the world (including the Muslim Brotherhood), exhorted worshippers to show rage to the world over the Danish paper Jylland Posten's publication of cartoons depicting the Prophet Muhammad. The sermon was aired on Qatar TV on February 3, 2006.

Go to the source to see the article and the actual exerpts.

Folks; I'm presenting an exchange between beachcoma and me (from here: www.abovetopsecret.com...) that I thought was appropriate on this thread which also highlights a very important point about the riots:

Originally posted by Beachcoma
You could also ask what makes people think they are in the right for offending people....repeatedly. Freedom of speech

originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
The problem with that line of thinking Beach is that there's no real way one person can possibly 100% know the sensibilities of another.

If I say something that offends you; Is it my fault you're offended?? I don't think so.

Being offended by what others say does one thing: It empowers others to have control over YOUR sensibilities. If you're offended by what I say, I have control of that which you are offended by. You have relinquished control of your sensibilites to me; and I therefore can do whatever I want with your sensibilities. (Wow!!! I love having this power!!!) The angry rioting Muslims have done just this. This is the fundamental flaw in their (Islamic) line of thinking.

So it is blasphemy to make caricatures of the Prophet Muhammed. Why must I be held to those strict rules when I'm not Muslim? Why do Muslims expect non-Muslims to follow the tenets of their beliefs? This is, in part, where the clash of cultures exist. Until Muslims sit back and realise that they are in fact a minority in this world and learn to share this world with non-muslims, these problem will continue.

The BEST way to handle insults to one's sensibilites; is to simply igore them. (This is what I teach my children). You know: "Sticks and Stones"...

Originally posted by beachcoma
You didn't read my post properly, I said "offend people repeatedly". The key word here being repeatedly.

It's like back in grade school a kid calling another names, then again, then again, then again even after the other kid said "stop it!"

But like I said, whatever floats your boat. I don't want to argue this point anymore -- I've stated my opinions on sense and sensibilty many times already -- you have your beliefs, I have mine. If they don't agree, well then let's just agree to disagree. Let's not run riot about it

originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
So.....the proper response for the kid who is the target of those repeated "names" (insults) is to burn down his school; kil the kid (and others as well); destroy property in general? (This is a rhetorical question and I know your answer would be "no")

So what is an appropriate response to "repeated" insults? How can that be applied to the Muslim rioters?

My point is: It doesn't matter if I'm making repeated insults. Your being offended gives me power over your sensibilites. How is it that I'm responsible for how you feel? How am I responsible for your emotions?

[edit on 8-2-2006 by Freedom_for_sum]

The reason good Muslin's do not come and speak against the violence is simple;

They would live in fear that then offended one or more of the religious nuts.

With a $25 million reward why don't you think someone has turned in Osman or one of the other crazies?

Originally posted by The Speaker
The reason good Muslin's do not come and speak against the violence is simple;

They would live in fear that then offended one or more of the religious nuts.

With a $25 million reward why don't you think someone has turned in Osman or one of the other crazies?

Well; you either stand up for what you believe in, or you don't. If you don't, there is a risk you could lose that which is important to you.

Now your new argument is why we Muslims don’t protest against these terrorists as violently as we do against the cartoons??

I am a Muslim and the problem is I don’t know who the real terrorists are? Who are they if you can please tell me clearly?

Are the Chechens terrorists because they are fighting for independence against Russians?
Are the Chechens terrorists because they are retaliating after the results of Russian helicopters firing anti-tank missile at children playing on play grounds?
Are the Chechens terrorists because because most of their men are dead and now the woman’s are blowing themselves up because they have nothing to live for! Their children dead, husband’s dead, brothers dead.
Your media doesn’t show their side, they only show Russians suffering e.g. school and theatre siege. Visit Chechnya and you will know who the real terrorists are.

Are the Palestinians terrorists because they are fighting for their land against Israel?
Are the Palestinians terrorists because they have nothing to live for except blowing themselves up under Israeli occupation?
Are the Palestinians terrorist because they retaliate to the on going Israeli assassinations and killings taking place everyday?
You don’t know what life is like when there are checkpoints after every 1 mile and the city surrounded with walls with the sounds of tanks, bulldozers and firings and explosions taking place on daily bases. Women getting sexually harassed when being searched by IDF at checkpoints.

Were the Bosnians terrorists because they retaliated after their mass massacres took place in Srebrenica and daily killings of women and children and getting raped by the Serb forces?
Your Western countries watched for 5 years while this was all happening in Europe, than you took action when most of the Muslims were slaughtered.

Are the Afghans terrorists because you left them for civil war for 15 years after they crippled soviets?
Is Osama Bin Laden and his group terrorists because the US helped them to cripple soviets and now that they have turned towards them because they have waged the same war against them?

Are the Iraqis terrorists because they didn’t give you free access to their oil?
Are the Iraqis terrorists because they are retaliating for a war based on nothing and has claimed more than 150,000 lives?
You have totally destroyed that country and now you say Iraqis are free and real democracy will take place.

Is this what you call free world, free of dictatorships, a world full of peace and democracy?
Why don’t you just admit it that you want to wipe out Muslims 1by 1 so that it makes things clear of what your real intentions are.

You know when I hear all this happening to Muslims; I start to wonder what does the word terrorist means and who are the actual terrorists.

Now Iman, stop the Tariqya. We all know what really happens in Palestine, we all know now why Christian Lebanese sided with the Jews in the civil war (because their churches were burned, women raped, and their neighborhoods destroyed), Chechnya could have elected to be a separate republic during the Soviet collapse but it didn't because Chechens want to wage Jihad against Russian minorities instead to impose sharia law (and payed big time for their arrogance-Alluh Ahkbar! )

Point is, you know who the terrorists are. Not the Israelis. Not America. Not Europe. Not Hindus. Not tolerant secular Islam. The terrorist is the individual who believes he has divine sanction to impose his vision over others by force, the terrorist is the one wishing to engage in bellicosity for the sake of a Caliphate. The West will not bow to Islam. End of Matter. This is our right, nobody can intimidate us.

Originally posted by iman
Now your new argument is why we Muslims don’t protest against these terrorists as violently as we do against the cartoons??

I am a Muslim and the problem is I don’t know who the real terrorists are?

911 was terrorism commited by some muslims. The kidnappings and beheadings in Iraq are terrorism commited by muslims. A terrorist is anyone who targets civilians, women and children. Its a pretty simple thing.

Were the Bosnians terrorists because they retaliated after their mass massacres took place in Srebrenica and daily killings of women and children and getting raped by the Serb forces?
Your Western countries watched for 5 years while this was all happening in Europe, than you took action when most of the Muslims were slaughtered.

There were certainly albanians and kosovars that were terrorists. Being treated inhumanely doesn't make a person who targets civilians and women and children not a terrorist.
Besides, where was jordan, or saudi arabia, or pakistan, when all this was going on?
They weren't invovled, because they didn't care. The only peopel that did care, enough to do anything, was the west. And the west is still occupying serbia and bosnia, still has troops commited, while the serbs who were commiting mass murder of muslims make the same defense claims that you are making.

[edit on 8-2-2006 by Nygdan]

I considered the possibility of 9/11 being an inside job. I'm having doubts though after this cartoon issue. The fact that Muslims a few hours before 9/11 were already blaming Israel leads me to believe that I am acting like a Dhimwit and should face the truce.

20,000 protesting by destroying property......over a cartoon.

churches being burned daily

one Catholic priest dead

Denmark being boycotted and subject to hacker attacks

Non-Muslims being killed in their own country for not wishing to submit to sharia law

Dozens of Fatwas placed on the cartoonist. Dozens more placed on people who had nothing to do with the issue.

Groups in Iraq calling for "finding and cutting to pieces some Danish people"

and the most stark fact of all....

Not even 500 protested in either London or NY after 9/11. Instead Muslims danced in the streets.


Religion of Peace indeed.



[edit on 8-2-2006 by Nakash]

Now Freedom, what are you doing? Haven't I made myself clear? Haven't I said many times within this thread that I don't support the violent actions of the extremist? You're making it sound like I condone these things.

As for the other thread, I'm still not gonna argue that coz it's not gonna get anywhere, you're trying to apply your reason to unreasonable people (violent protesters). That is why I said it. Me, I don't like what's going on, and I find it distasteful that it was repeated again and again, but other than protest it (non-violently), what can I do? I don't expect you, and quite frankly, many others to see it as I do, but I strongly belief that when it comes to matters pertaining religion (of any sort) and race/culture, tread carefully. It's what I believe, it's what people from my country believe, it's what people from even neighbouring Singapore believes. And no amount of arguments is gonna change that. So for the last time, let's drop the subject and agree to disagree.

As for the protesters, it doesn't take a genius to figure they're easily provoked and more than likely would resort to violent protests (as the riots in France last year would attest).

Now, instead of trying to divert the attention, why don't you address the point I've made previously in this thread?
This post and by extension this post.

Telegraph

100,000 to march in London some dressed as suicide bombers. I’m starting to question my already tenuous view of this religion...And I thought Christianity was bad...

A mass demonstration of 100,000 Muslims will take place in London next weekend as anger continues over publication of cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed.

The Muslim Action Committee, an umbrella group which claims to represent more than a million Muslims, said it would do as much as it could to prevent the ugly scenes seen last week when protesters carried placards issuing death threats and one man dressed as a suicide bomber

100,000 to march in London some dressed as suicide bombers WTF!!! if thats true NO way should we let it happen i don't think Muslims can be trusted can YOU?? Just look at the incident where the Embassies were burned that started peacefully and turned violent.

Although if it is allowed it will be a test for Muslims as if any violence does happen then i can expect mass border closure to all Muslims and mass deports back home to middle east.

And if the Muslims try a FRANCE riot on UK lol they will be shot on spot by Military and rounded up into prison camps and deported home where they belong where their religion is followed and practiced by everyone they be at home that way.

It seems now this is being directed towards U.S. Bases....lol

The U.S. base was targeted because the United States "is the leader of Europe and the leading infidel in the world," said Sher Mohammed, a 40-year-old farmer who suffered a gunshot wound while taking part in the demonstration in the city of Qalat.

"They are all the enemy of Islam. They are occupiers in our country and must be driven out," Mohammed said.

linkage

This is getting ridiculous!

Originally posted by Beachcoma
Now Freedom, what are you doing? Haven't I made myself clear? Haven't I said many times within this thread that I don't support the violent actions of the extremist? You're making it sound like I condone these things.

No; I don't believe for one second that you condone these things. Where did I insinuate/say that? If you're referring to my reason for bringing our exchange from the other thread to here: That exchange was more on-topic to what's beign discussed here--that's all!! I was not attempting to point out anything nefarious by what you said (I genuinely don't believe there's anything nefarious in what you stated). It simply points out a difference in perception between us where it seems that I am somehow in control of, and responsible for, others sensibilities. I don't believe I (or any one else) is. These riotous/angry Muslims are in that emotional state because they choose to be!! Nobody can make another feel a certain way if the other doesn't wish to feel that way

Try not to read into my posts. If I don't say it; I certainly don't mean it


[edit on 9-2-2006 by Freedom_for_sum]

Originally posted by iman
Now your new argument is why we Muslims don’t protest against these terrorists as violently as we do against the cartoons??

Please show where ANYONE here has stated that you should protest violently against the terrorists???? You seem to be a person who only read what he wants to read--not what was actually written.

Originally posted by iman
I am a Muslim and the problem is I don’t know who the real terrorists are? Who are they if you can please tell me clearly?

You're just being obtuse. Is it intentional?? You know exactly who they are. They are those in your mosque or close circles who voice opinions like "The kafirs should be put to death" and "Islam should be dominant in the world and those who don't accept Islam should be killed"; "The artist of those cartoons and his publishers should be killed", etc, etc, etc.

I'm not sure, based on your post, that you're what I would consider a "moderate" Muslim (something other than fundamentalist) like Beachcoma is. If, however, you are; you, and those like you, need to stand up for what you believe. If you don't, it is not I who will lose; it will be you!!

The rest of your post is off topic and utter garbage


[edit on 9-2-2006 by Freedom_for_sum]

Originally posted by iman
Now your new argument is why we Muslims don’t protest against these terrorists as violently as we do against the cartoons??

Indeed, Mr. Iman, we are quite stunned that a peaceful religion of tolerance such as islam is feeling comfortable enough, with some (and many) of its adherents commiting atrocities. We are also questioning the wisdom of torching a Norwegian embassy over a freaking cartoon, while not torching the Saudi embassy over 9/11.

I am a Muslim and the problem is I don’t know who the real terrorists are? Who are they if you can please tell me clearly?

You don't get out much, do you?

Are the Chechens terrorists because they are fighting for independence against Russians?

Some of the Chechens (that's the terrorist kind for you ) were ethnically cleansing Russians and had created a warlord regime complete with kidnappings, slave trade and all sorts of extortion. Screw that.

Are the Chechens terrorists because they are retaliating after the results of Russian helicopters firing anti-tank missile at children playing on play grounds?

I don't believe that crap for a second. This would have been in the news. If you are quoting Kavkaz-Center, don't bother.

Are the Chechens terrorists because because most of their men are dead

Boo hoo. They should have know better than join these gangs as mercenaries for obscure Wahhabi figures. Besides, that most Chechen men are dead in itlsef is a blatant lie.

Your media doesn’t show their side, they only show Russians suffering e.g. school and theatre siege.

There was plenty of info on Chechnya and the chechen cause is often shown sympathecially. Heck, the terrorist Zakaev lives freely in London and was not extradited to Russia. Basaev has given interviews in a friendly kind of setup, for every media outlset in the wolrd.

As for the school and the theater, we now know what animals the chechen terrorists are. Don't you dare to try and justify these beasts. They should burn in hell.

Are the Afghans terrorists because you left them for civil war for 15 years after they crippled soviets?

Wait a second, are you sucking up to Americans because the afghans alegedly fought an enemy of the US? What was the US supposed to do, invade after the Soviets left?

You know when I hear all this happening to Muslims; I start to wonder what does the word terrorist means and who are the actual terrorists.

OK, I repeat very slowly - terrorists are the people who blow up schools full of children, blow up subway trains at rush hour, hijack planes and decapitate helpless communication engineers as well as shoot peaceful Nepalese construction workers in the head, execution style. Is that clear enough, buddy?


[edit on 9-2-2006 by Aelita]

I'd like to ask, just for the purposes of keeping a balance, where were the mass protests in Chicago, Boston and New York from the Irish American community when the IRA were targetting men women and children in bombing campaigns, commiting summary executions and robbing banks and selling drugs to fund the cause (oh that's right they were too busy sitting in O'Malleys bar and putting money in the hat),why didn't members of the catholic community in Ulster speak out against the terrorists in there midst, because they were too bloody scared and that was with a govt loyal to the UK running the place. Does that put the lie that all muslims and all muslim regimes are sympathetic or supportive to the terorists by defualt in it's proper perspective.

Originally posted by ubermunche
I'd like to ask, just for the purposes of keeping a balance, where were the mass protests in Chicago, Boston and New York from the Irish American community when the IRA were targetting men women and children...

So ubermunche;

Since the IRA committed acts of atrocity, we should just sit back and let fundamentalist Msulims have their way with violence??

BTW, a SIGNIFICANT difference between the two is that one (the IRA) is a politcal organization motivated by nationalist/separatist causes; not religious ones. They weren't commiting their acts of violence in the name of Catholocism. So their action never required any denouncement on the part of any religious organization; though, I am certain they were.

Fundamentalist Muslims are committing their acts of violence in the name of their religion and Allah.

Originally posted by iman
I am a Muslim and the problem is I don’t know who the real terrorists are?

Why not? It's very simple.

I noticed you gave the palestinian murderers a free ticket
and placed the blame upon the Israelies.

Palestinian homicide bombers go into the soverign nation
of Israel and mass murder innocent people on busses, in
weddings, in markets .... They just recently shot up a car
at a checkpoint with a pregant woman and her children -
all under the age of 12 - and the murderers shouted
that they had done a great deed for Allah.

You claim that Israelies sexually harrass Palestinian women
at check points. Guess what? Searching people for bombs
isn't sexual harrassment. If the Palestinians wouldn't
bomb Israelies, if they wouldn't hid bombs on pregnant women,
then the Palestinian women wouldn't be searched at the
check points.

The Palestinians only have themselves to blame for whatever
treatment they receive. Stop bombing Israelies, stop
sneaking bombs through checkpoints, stop using pregnant
women as a 'free ticket' to get bombs through and the
Israelies wouldn't have to search the women.

Who are the real terrorists?
Hamas and all those who support Hamas.
That's a good starting point for you to learn.
Hamas said it's sole reason to exist is to
destroy Israel and kill Jews. THAT's terrorism!