100's of Muslims protest Muhammad cartoons in London…But how many protest terror?

Originally posted by dbates
What's up with all the liberals feeling sorry for the religious people all the sudden? I thought they didn't want anyone pushing their religion on them. You know, we want to be able to abort babies, have affairs, and drink like a senator from Mass. If you thought the Christians were tough, just let the Muslims run things for a while. You'll be wishing you were back to living in "Jesus land".

Because alot of Christians don't want to be equal it seems, they want to be on top in America. They want to be in public schools and in the goverment. Liberals protest them being on top, not equal. I'm all for them being equal but I'm not all for them running the govenment and making laws respecting Christian beliefs.

And this is comepletely off topic. You can't justify a smaller wrong with a greater wrong. There both wrong. -.-;

[edit on 7-2-2006 by Kacen]

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
With all due respect Beachcoma; this fatwa rings hollow as it comes from a few western Clerics with a questionable past. Since the majority of global terrorism comes from Arab Muslims, a fatwa from an Arab cleric or Mufti needs to address this issue. Instead, you have people like this guy, Saudi's Grand mufti, who, during the Hajj, proclaimed that the west is at war with Islam and that all muslims must unite against the West.

Alright, but say another muslim leader decrees it, would I be far off in saying that in all likelyhood opponents would find some character flaw or past transgression to make the person less credible?

Kacen, this is a Christian nation by designm, not a theocracy, though. There is a huge difference. Furthermore, we don't burn embassies or behead those who don't accept Christianity.
This derailment topic has been covered so many times it isn't even close to being funny, anymore. However, if you'd like more information on this topic, look over in PTS in the religion in government area. I believe I wrote a very lengthy and authoritive piece on this. Whether or not you prefer to believe it is up to you, but it is there.

I wish we had an index, so that when derailments come along, we could simply point to the index and continue with the main topic!

Meanwhile, back to the Islamic Cartoon Network!

Originally posted by Beachcoma
Alright, but say another muslim leader decrees it, would I be far off in saying that in all likelyhood opponents would find some character flaw or past transgression to make the person less credible?

To tell you the truth, Beachcoma, it doesn't really matter whether I perceive the Fatwa, or its author, as legitimate or not. What matters is whether "fundamentalist Muslims" perceive it as legitimate. I'm not the one blowing people up or decapiting people. The Fatwa must come from a source that these fundamentalists perceive is legitimate and meaningful enough to cause them to stop what they are doing. The Fatwa issued by the 18 North Amercan clerics is like masturbation: it feels good; but it acccomplishes nothing.

[edit on 7-2-2006 by Freedom_for_sum]

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Kacen, this is a Christian nation by designm,

Sort of off topic here.

This is a myth that has been perpetuated by the Christian Conservatives. We are not a "Chiristian nation". We are a secular nation where no specific religion is recognized as official. To proclaim America as a Christian nation is no different than Saudi Arabia calling itself a Muslim nation (which it is). Once you make that proclamation, a whole segment of our population (non-christians) becomes "inferior" as they are not the same American's as Christian Americans. Our country was founded by people escaping religious oppression. If America truly were a "Christian nation" Strict Christian Ideals would reign which would be a form of oppression.

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum

To tell you the truth, Beachcoma, it doesn't really matter whether I perceive the Fatwa, or its author, as legitimate or not. What matters is whether "fundamentalist Muslims" perceive it as legitimate.

Point taken. Sigh... I really don't understand these violent protesters.

Oh, FFS, remember I told you that there's some mention in the Qur'an about not causing destruction on the Earth? I found it! Not verbatim, but you get the idea.

al-Baqarah, 204-206

002.204
YUSUFALI: There is the type of man whose speech about this world's life May dazzle thee, and he calls Allah to witness about what is in his heart; yet is he the most contentious of enemies.
PICKTHAL: And of mankind there is he whoso conversation on the life of this world pleaseth thee (Muhammad), and he calleth Allah to witness as to that which is in his heart; yet he is the most rigid of opponents.
SHAKIR: And among men is he whose speech about the life of this world causes you to wonder, and he calls on Allah to witness as to what is in his heart, yet he is the most violent of adversaries.

002.205
YUSUFALI: When he turns his back, His aim everywhere is to spread mischief through the earth and destroy crops and cattle. But Allah loveth not mischief.
PICKTHAL: And when he turneth away (from thee) his effort in the land is to make mischief therein and to destroy the crops and the cattle; and Allah loveth not mischief.
SHAKIR: And when he turn,s back, he runs along in the land that he may cause mischief in it and destroy the tilth and the stock, and Allah does not love mischief-making.

002.206
YUSUFALI: When it is said to him, "Fear Allah", He is led by arrogance to (more) crime. Enough for him is Hell;-An evil bed indeed (To lie on)!
PICKTHAL: And when it is said unto him: Be careful of thy duty to Allah, pride taketh him to sin. Hell will settle his account, an evil resting-place.
SHAKIR: And when it is said to him, guard against (the punish ment of) Allah; pride carries him off to sin, therefore hell is sufficient for him; and certainly it is an evil resting place.

I think that fits the bill. The idea certainly is there. I'll keep looking, I'm sure there are more references to "mischief-making" being unacceptable.

To proclaim America as a Christian nation is no different than Saudi Arabia calling itself a Muslim nation (which it is).

Big difference, America is tolerant of other beliefs and religions. Saudi Arabia is not

That's why the muslim nations are all butt hurt about the cartoons, because they do not recognize others beliefs and freedoms.

We are a secular nation where no specific religion is recognized as official.

Show me where it says this.

Once you make that proclamation, a whole segment of our population (non-christians) becomes "inferior" as they are not the same American's as Christian Americans.

They only become inferior once they are being treated differently.

Our country was founded by people escaping religious oppression.

I think it was founded by people who wanted to escape taxation without representation.

Sorry to get off topic. TC's piece on this is good to go, you should check it out.



[edit on 7/2/2006 by SportyMB]

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
This is a myth that has been perpetuated by the Christian Conservatives. We are not a "Chiristian nation". We are a secular nation where no specific religion is recognized as official.

Great! Whose to say what religion is correct? I think mine is, you think your religion is correct, and the Atheist are laughing at both sides. (While we laugh at them). Anyone should be able to (and should) question any and every type of organized religion. That's freedom. Freedom from oppression because your views are different than the establishment. So go out there and ask why Muslims bow to a stone at Mecca when they pray. Go ask the Christians for more proof that Jesus really existed. Tell the Magicians that praying magical hats for rabbits is phony. You have every right to be suspicious and laugh at those whom you think are incorrect. You can even go as far as *gasp* printing your ideas in the newspaper.

Remember that all your fighting and actions should be in word only. When you start destroying things that belong to others it's not speech, it's a crime, and that's where we find a sizeable portion of the Muslim world today. Breaking the law, and threating death to those who dare challange their views. We dare not cower to their demands.

Originally posted by sminkeypinkeyThat maybe; but it doesn't detract from the fact that his very public apology (before this additional information came out) got little attention (particularly from those who are always the first to claim 'they never.......etc etc'.

I disagree, it was BBC and Sky rolling news every half hour after it was released to the press. The British seemed to pick up on it, however, I can't comment on the American press.

Edit: quote box

[edit on 7/2/2006 by FactoryLad]

Originally posted by SportyMB
Big difference, America is tolerant of other beliefs and religions. Saudi Arabia is not

If America was a Christian nation, homosexuality would be illegal; it is not. Abortion would be illegal; it is not. Alcohol would likely be illegal; it is not. Plus a whole host of other things as well that aren't in the public spotlight. Irrespective of your last statement; people came to America to avoid religious persecution in England.

by Freedom_for_sum
We are a secular nation where no specific religion is recognized as official.

Originally posted by SportyMB
Show me where it says this.

You're asking me to prove a negative (to prove, with evidence, something that doesn't exist); which is virtually impossible. Since you believe that we ARE a Christian nation (a condition you believe DOES exist) you need to provide the document (Constitution; Declaration of Independence; etc) that supports that.

Posted by Freedom_for_sum
Once you make that proclamation, a whole segment of our population (non-christians) becomes "inferior" as they are not the same American's as Christian Americans.

Originally posted by SportyMB
They only become inferior once they are being treated differently.

Ask gays/lesbians about being treated differently. Even though we're not a Christian nation, there are many in politics who like to impose their Christian values (Pres Bush is one) whenever they can; much like these folks at www.godhatesfags.com... (a legitimate, Christian church recognized by the governement).

poted by Freedom_for_sum
Our country was founded by people escaping religious oppression.

Originally posted by SportyMB
I think it was founded by people who wanted to escape taxation without representation.

[edit on 7-2-2006 by Freedom_for_sum]

Originally posted by CogitoErgoSum1
You really and truly believe they fear the wrath of Christian America? Well its either that or they’re brainwashed right? Are you telling me that there’s no room in your thought process to give them credit for being logical?

My Thought process is doing just fine thank you very much, how about yours.

Now how logical is our own politicians when it comes to foreign policies,

It's that why we are in the middle east wagging a war on terror in a muslin dominated land.

Yes, I am as logical as I can be is just that I don't fall for the BS.

Or the fact that most muslin in the US are not even from the middle east or they are Arabs.

The muslin Arabs in the US came to the US to live and prosper here they have not ties to the middle east unless is comercial and have not desired to go back to their lands.

But hey wait when one of them makes it to the political arena and get into a position of power, things will probably change a lot.



[edit on 7-2-2006 by marg6043]

Muslims keeping crying over and over, they should not be judged by their religion...the whole spiel.
Well here they are again, acting like idiots. Screaming a innocent country be bombed. OVER a CARTOON!!!?? when there is a million other things more wrong in this world!!!


Oh and for the person who said America is so great because homosexuality is not illegal, oh really? Then why cant they get married if they so want to, in EVERYONE of the 50 states? Abortion being legal, thanks to the people who let Alito in. Who knows how much longer I as a women will have that choice!

Edit: Censor circumvention.

[edit on 7-2-2006 by intrepid]

The US does have a constitution and political system that is secular and democratic, having said that however I find church and state seem to be far more influential on each other than say in the UK or France which is interesting when you consider that most of the unrest and conflict is taking place over here. Perhaps those of a fundamental nature find us Godless Euro's even more of an affront than the evangalising Xtian element within the US.

Originally posted by marg6043

My Thought process is doing just fine thank you very much, how about yours.

Now how logical is our own politicians when it comes to foreign policies,

It's that why we are in the middle east wagging a war on terror in a muslin dominated land.

Yes, I am as logical as I can be is just that I don't fall for the BS.

Or the fact that most muslin in the US are not even from the middle east or they are Arabs.

The muslin Arabs in the US came to the US to live and prosper here they have not ties to the middle east unless is comercial and have not desired to go back to their lands.

But hey wait when one of them makes it to the political arena and get into a position of power, things will probably change a lot.

[edit on 7-2-2006 by marg6043]

Somehow you’ve managed to derail the subject into political overtones regarding foreign policy and the war on terror. In any case, I am simply saying that its possible, that since this isn’t something that has taken place in America and since a lot of Muslims in America are “westernized” that they see how illogical it is to riot over a published cartoon. Now had an American paper printed this, CAIR would have been all over it and the logical thing would have been to voice their opinion, bring attention to it and boycott which they’ve done on several occasions.



[edit on 7-2-2006 by CogitoErgoSum1]

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
This is a myth that has been perpetuated by the Christian Conservatives. We are not a "Chiristian nation". We are a secular nation where no specific religion is recognized as official.

Originally posted by dbates
Great! Whose to say what religion is correct? I think mine is, you think your religion is correct, and the Atheist are laughing at both sides.

I think you misunderstand me. I'm saying NO religion should be recognized by the government as "correct". It's all the same, from the public perspective, and our tax dollars should never go toward religious causes. In fact, i think giving tax breaks to religious causes (such as www.godhatesfags.com) is egregious and an insult to freedom and liberty.

Originally posted by b777pilot
Oh and for the person who said America is so great because homosexuality is not illegal, oh really? Then why cant they get married if they so want to, in EVERYONE of the 50 states? Abortion being legal, thanks to the F***tards who let Alito in. Who knows how much longer I as a women will have that choice!

Just because we are not a Christian nation doesn't mean there aren't politicians foisting their religious beliefs on us. Please continue to vote your position. BTW; I'm furloughed from AA.

[edit on 7-2-2006 by Freedom_for_sum]

Originally posted by Beachcoma
Oh, FFS, remember I told you that there's some mention in the Qur'an about not causing destruction on the Earth? I found it! Not verbatim, but you get the idea.

I'm sorry Beachcoma; I don't read anything is those vereses about not causing destruction on the Earth.

Originally posted by Beachcoma

Originally posted by FlyersFan
The purpose of political cartoons is NOT to 'promote better understanding
between cultures' and it isn't to 'aid in unity'. [...]

Please do not lecture me on the purpose of satire. I know what it's for.

Sure didn't sound like you knew what they were for.
You said why print them when they don't promote better
understand between culture and they don't aid in unity.
Why? YOU asked. Because that's not their purpose -
I answered that question.

when something is burning, do you fan the flames,
feeding the fire or do you work to figure out a way to put it out?

The cartoonist published a political cartoon. There was nothing
to even hint that the muslims around the world would use this
as an excuse to riot and have (yet again) calls for genocide of
infidels. At the time of the publication there was no fire.

Now there are riots. So what? It doesn't change the fact that
it's still a cartoon and it doesn't change the fact that the rioters
should NOT be appeased by backing off from the cartoon.
That would be the WORST thing the west could do. The
idiots would be causing world wide riots and calls for genocide
every time they wanted something their own way or when
something didn't match up to THEIR religion. To appease
them now would just invite more trouble later and would
TRAIN THEM to continue these in these idiotic and
criminally deviant behaviors.

If you want a way to 'work it out' then the muslim rioters
are the ones that are wrong in this case and they need to be
told so. They need to be educated. THAT is how to work it out.
And frankly - the more they act the way they are, the more
they are showing that the cartoonist is RIGHT.

Does freedom of speech mean that someone
can act irresponsibly ...?

No. However, the cartoonist was not irresponsible. Neither
were the publishers. Neither were those in other parts of
Europe and on the internet who have since taken a look at the
cartoons and printed them.

Irresponsible is what the leader of Iran is doing - calling for
countries to be wiped off the planet and blaming everything
from the common cold to global warming on the Jews and
calling to kill all Jews. THAT is irresponsible. Printing a
political cartoon of what you believe the politics of a certain
religion is ... that's not irresponsible. It may be in bad
taste... but it's not irresponsible.

Put the blame where it should be ... on the idiot rioters.
Personal responsibility!

It's a question of common sense and courtesy.

Common sense is NOT to riot over a stupid cartoon in a part
of the world that is not in the main stream anyways. If they
had ignored it ... no one would have thought twice about it
and it would have gone away by now.

Courtesy is nice, but courtesty is wrong when it is used to
cover truth ... and this cartoon is looking to be very truthful
right about now.

Why promote schism when you can just opt not to?

Why promote appeasement (which is furthering ignorance)
when you can tell the truth and educate?



[edit on 2/7/2006 by FlyersFan]

Freedom, it's there clear as daylight! It's not word for word what I said but it's there for all to see. The meaning is the same.

When he turns his back, His aim everywhere is to spread mischief through the earth and destroy crops and cattle. But Allah loveth not mischief.

See that? By that implication it also stands to reason not to destroy property.

The reason why Muslems do not protest terror is becasue they abide by it...Its what their religion tells them to do...Seriously, i am getting so very tired of hearing people call Islam a Religion of Peace... thats even an offense to Budhism !

Islam may be a Religion of PIECES, as in people blown to Pieces but not a religion of Peace. Islam condones and accepts the fact that abrother or a father can murder their own sister/daughter if she looses her virginity,... the Peace i feel from that is amamzing.

Islam calls for DEATH of all infidels, and of course an Infidel is anyone and everyone who is not a muslem... quite Peacefull indeed.

I could go on with many more examples, but for what ? To have abunch of blind believers of the "Peacefull Islam" annyoing me ? No thanks.

The point is...These people CONDONE and ACCEPT behedings, bombings, stonings ... all sorts of peacefull stuff, and thats why they will NEVER protest against terrorism..They BELIEVE IN IT.

That would be like me having an abortion and protest against it the day before .

The sad thing is that as always because of Muslem the christians always get it in the head as well... and why ?
Because there are a bunch of phsyco nuts hidding behind the Bible, such as Pat Robertson, who call for the death of gay people...well these pshyco-pseudo-christians are no better than Islamic fanatics. and unfortunetlky Christinaity ows them its bad name, and even worse publicity.