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Childhood Vaccinations??
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Once again a misunderstanding...this time on Riley's part.
NO, I am not with the mentality of "sacrifice a few to protect many."
I simply want it to be known that these vaccinations have some good to them. When was the last time you saw someone walking around with polio, rubella, diptheria, etc...
These vaccinations do prevent these diseases. Nothing is done without risk. When I was a child I was hospitalized for a severe allergic reaction to penicillan. Does that mean my parents should've protested against it. IMO penicillan is a very commonly used, very effective antibiotic, that does alot of people good. I learned not to take it anymore. As you learned your child, or family member had a reaction to the vaccine, you won't take it anymore. EVERYTHING (especially in medicine) has it's risk! It also has benefits.
Sure the pharm companies should investigate further into the matter of why more kids react the way they do and I don't agree with all the "ingredients." But that really is no reason to deny someone else the benefits of the medicine (not to be mistaken with my saying it's ok for some to die as long as some live, ok, but everyone has the power of choice). Each person/body is different. Different chemical levels, different everything. That is why we react so diffrent to different things.
Each person must chose what's right for them. We live, we learn. It's a fact of life that sometimes isn't pretty.
(I'm not trying to sound horrible on here. I'm sorry to all of you who have someone close to you that has been affected)
NO, I am not with the mentality of "sacrifice a few to protect many."
I simply want it to be known that these vaccinations have some good to them. When was the last time you saw someone walking around with polio, rubella, diptheria, etc...
These vaccinations do prevent these diseases. Nothing is done without risk. When I was a child I was hospitalized for a severe allergic reaction to penicillan. Does that mean my parents should've protested against it. IMO penicillan is a very commonly used, very effective antibiotic, that does alot of people good. I learned not to take it anymore. As you learned your child, or family member had a reaction to the vaccine, you won't take it anymore. EVERYTHING (especially in medicine) has it's risk! It also has benefits.
Sure the pharm companies should investigate further into the matter of why more kids react the way they do and I don't agree with all the "ingredients." But that really is no reason to deny someone else the benefits of the medicine (not to be mistaken with my saying it's ok for some to die as long as some live, ok, but everyone has the power of choice). Each person/body is different. Different chemical levels, different everything. That is why we react so diffrent to different things.
Each person must chose what's right for them. We live, we learn. It's a fact of life that sometimes isn't pretty.
(I'm not trying to sound horrible on here. I'm sorry to all of you who have someone close to you that has been affected)
Originally posted by TaupeDragon
..
I appreciate that people here have got very sincerely held beliefs, but where are the large scale human studies that show any problem with MMR? Anecdote makes for powerful reading, but does it make for powerful *evidence* in public health policy?
..
No, of course not but there's no denying that something went wrong after sometime in the 1980s and autism isn't the only problem. to be clear, i'd be happy to find out it was something else entirely, but at the first glance, it's clear that something is in the vaccines, perhaps it's contamination and affects only 1 in 1000 doses, perhaps it's systemic, i don't know, and i never specifically singled out any vaccine, mind you.
There's an article that does, though:
Source
..
A relatively recent development in
autism studies has arisen from the observation and sharing through internet
and other support groups by parents that their children became autistic
after vaccinations, notably the triples, DPT and MMR. There certainly have
been isolated incidents of vaccine injuries for many years with little
support from the medical profession or the vaccine makers
..
Now, apparently MMR vax does not contain mercury but it is mentioned in relation with autism. a source, validity unknown, perhaps it's trendy to blame vaccines, perhaps it's genuine. you be the judge.
next one
..
Parents of now grown vaccine injured children, who warned pediatricians and Centers for Disease Control (CDC) officials in the 1980’s that their once healthy, bright children regressed mentally, emotionally and physically after reacting to DPT vaccine with fever, high pitched screaming (encephalitic cry), collapse/shock, and seizures, are grieving with a new generation of parents whose healthy, bright children suddenly regress after DPT/DTaP, MMR, hepatitis B, polio, Hib and chicken pox vaccinations. The refusal two decades ago by vaccine manufacturers, government health agencies and medical organizations to seriously investigate reports of vaccine-associated brain injury and immune system dysfunction, including autistic behaviors, is reaping tragic consequences today.
..
now another mention of MMR (and many others) - not containing thiomersal, so what is it?
a short one:
Just take a look at this link
catch phrase:
..
They all share the Rathod family's deep sense of loss following the death of their infant daughter, who died minutes after being administered a dose of pulse polio and a DPT vaccine at the Vadodara Municipal Corporation's family health centre in Khanderao market.
..
within minutes, does it get any clearer?
That's just one example, there are thousands, some make the news, most don't, one thing is certain, though, death is a rare complication and less severe cases will certainly not make the news but still affect the individual.
The problem i see is that it's not like a case of sloppy engineering which may crash an airplane, affecting a few hundred people at a time, vaccines affect everyone, there is no margin for error, is there? As i said, perhaps researchers around the world are feverishly trying to get to the root of the issue, i don't know, but i hope you all understand that stumbling upon alarming information (along with some hysterical propaganda i'll readily admit that) at an increasing rate while hearing nothing about an investigation does not instill confidence.
ok, the last two links will be provided without commentary: first is kook-fringe, beware and bring some salt, the second is more about the practice of paying off vax victims.
www.vaclib.org...
www.whale.to...
[edit on 2-2-2006 by Long Lance]
Originally posted by bsl4doc
1. MMR- contains fertilized chickens eggs. Linked to autism and Crohns Disease. Contains 12 MCG. of Mercury which is 30x safe amt as stated by the EPA & Amer. Acad. of Peds.
2. Hep B- contains formaldehyde. Lethal reaction % is 1%. If 7 mill. kids are vaccinated then 700,000 will die. Mercury in vaccine has been replaced with aluminum which is linked to Alzheimers.
3. Diphtheria- putrified beef broth containing the diphtheria bacillus is injected into a horse until the horse has symptoms of blood poison. 2-3 gal. of blood is drawn from the horse over a 6-7 wk. pd., or until the horse dies. Your being injected with another latent animal virus. Contains 50 MCG. of Mercury which is 60x safe amt as per EPA & AAP.
4. Pertussis- Is not even a virus, it's a bacteria and can be cured with antibiotics. In 1935 the death rate dropped by 82%- before the vaccine was put into use.
5. Formalin- Used in vaccinations, a derivitive of formaldehyde. Ing. are- 37%-40% formaldehyde, H2O, and 10% methanol as a tissue fixative.
6. Flu vaccine- grown in fertilized chicken eggs or caterpillar cells, using millions of eggs a yr.
Autism rates rose from 900,000 in 1991 to 5 million in 2005. Mercury linked to autism. Mercury is 1 of the most toxic elements on earth- 2nd only to plutonium.
You call this "personal opinion" Demetre? Oh please!
Ciao,
~MFP
Uh, yeah. My personal opinion on this is -based on the facts above I choose not to vaccinate My kids because I don't want to put that crap in them. Should I be more clear? Because vaccinations contain things like fetal cells, chix eggs, boiled pig, aluminum, thimerosal (still used in the flu vaccine)etc..
I refuse them. Because We don't consume animal products, I refuse them. Because My sons immune system comprimised I refuse them.I think just because 'it's always been like that' or 'We did it and We're okay' isn't enough for Me. I ? everything when it involves what is most important to Me. There are those who choose to disagree and that's fine, no sweat of My back. Vaccinate Your kids? Great, that's everyones right to do so. I just believe that more people should ? why We do the things We do. An informed decision is the best decision of all.
Peace. K*
My point, Demetre, is that you post what you FEEL is scientific fact and is actually not. I understand that you personal opinion is nto to vaccinate
your childre, and that's fine, just pray to il suo dio that they don't catch anything severe. You do, however, need to backup ridiculous claims with
sources or admit that they are not scientific at all.
Buona sera,
~MFP
Buona sera,
~MFP
Demetre
I was wondering if you are in the US. Also, when you gave birth to your children did they receive the Hep B vaccine or did you decline? If you declined what did the doctor say to you. Did you receive warnings or "static" of any kind? In my state, it clearly says on my first child's immunization records (I didn't have all the information I do now, so he was fully vaccinated) that "You MUST comply with XX state immunization laws to attend school." Now true that I do, now, homeschool my first child, this concerns me a bit for my second. Not that I intend on putting him in public school, but what about college and other areas in which he may need this "PROOF" I was just wondering if you had encountered any negativity from anyone/anyplace about these laws and how you handled the situation. Also I assume your children are healthy correct?
I was wondering if you are in the US. Also, when you gave birth to your children did they receive the Hep B vaccine or did you decline? If you declined what did the doctor say to you. Did you receive warnings or "static" of any kind? In my state, it clearly says on my first child's immunization records (I didn't have all the information I do now, so he was fully vaccinated) that "You MUST comply with XX state immunization laws to attend school." Now true that I do, now, homeschool my first child, this concerns me a bit for my second. Not that I intend on putting him in public school, but what about college and other areas in which he may need this "PROOF" I was just wondering if you had encountered any negativity from anyone/anyplace about these laws and how you handled the situation. Also I assume your children are healthy correct?
Originally posted by bsl4doc
R u the medical student?
hope I have the right person.... now I hope you have informed people that your not a certified medical practioner...you are not legally certified to make yourself clear and clear again and again.... perhaps you need to stress to people...to seek a registered Medical Practioner's opinion on the matter and that your advice is bona fide ... in good faith for those not up with latin
Umm...why does me not being a doctor mean I can't make myself clear when someone asks me to explain my point? Maybe I just don't understand your strange Aussie logic, I mean, you guys are pretty far south and live with kangaroos, wombats, etc.
this strange Aussie logic? hmm ok?
I have read the responses and as such feel that you are given a higher calibre because you are a MS. Thats fine and you are entitled to offer you learned opinion but..you need to be responsible here and I suggest to avoid litigation you place in your sig. 'bona fide'...simple.
My concern is that you have identified yourself as a MS and the avatar further supports this...you are not legally certified to provide medical opinion. Sure discuss an issue but you need to inform other people to seek MP.
You have influenced some people in this discussion, you need to be very cautious in doing that. If someone decides to act on your medical view and immunise their child because you have provided information that appears on face value 'absolute' you or ATS could be in a lot of pooey goo.... ok?
Now I really don't want to go into a interpreting research debate but if need be..I will... as a MS you must be aware of your legal obligations.
I have read the responses and as such feel that you are given a higher calibre because you are a MS. Thats fine and you are entitled to offer you learned opinion but..you need to be responsible here and I suggest to avoid litigation you place in your sig. 'bona fide'...simple.
My concern is that you have identified yourself as a MS and the avatar further supports this...you are not legally certified to provide medical opinion. Sure discuss an issue but you need to inform other people to seek MP.
You have influenced some people in this discussion, you need to be very cautious in doing that. If someone decides to act on your medical view and immunise their child because you have provided information that appears on face value 'absolute' you or ATS could be in a lot of pooey goo.... ok?
Now I really don't want to go into a interpreting research debate but if need be..I will... as a MS you must be aware of your legal obligations.
First of all, I wasn't trying to persuade people to immunise their children, I presented scientific research relating to thimerosal and it's unrelatedness to autism. I'm sorry you didn't take the time to read my posts and thought I was somehow trying to give medical advice to people on a personal level. That's your mistake, not mine.
Secondly, what litigation am I putting in my sig? It's a quote from a French pop song I happen to like. I don't see how that relates to any of this...
Finally, if someone is taking medical advice from someone on a conspiracy theory web page, they have greater problems than whether or not to immunise their children. Despite the fact that I have NOT posted any medical advice, just research, neither I nor ATS would be responsible for any actions taken by others for one simple fact you seem to keep ignoring: I posted RESEARCH. That research came from OTHER PEOPLE and can be found readily online. So, is a researcher here in Italy responsible for someone's actions if they publish online a journal article that shows possible liver damage from aspirin, so the person stops taking and has a heart attack? That's the same situation you're talking about here. Please, please, please think through your posts before making any kind of personal statements towards me, I would really appreciate it.
Buona sera,
~MFP
Originally posted by bsl4doc
Well that is your take on the situation...as you understand the research...perhaps we need a Environmental & Nutritional Doctor's opinion in here?
First of all, I wasn't trying to persuade people to immunise their children, I presented scientific research relating to thimerosal and it's unrelatedness to autism.
Don't assume I haven't read your posts...I have and thats why I am reponding!
I'm sorry you didn't take the time to read my posts and thought I was somehow trying to give medical advice to people on a personal level. That's your mistake, not mine
Secondly, what litigation am I putting in my sig? It's a quote from a French pop song I happen to like. I don't see how that relates to any of this...
perhaps read the thread again...if you put in your sig...the words 'bona fide' it will absolve you any possible litigation. Maybe I need to draw you a picture?
Finally, if someone is taking medical advice from someone on a conspiracy theory web page, they have greater problems than whether or not to immunise their children.
It happens...
yes biased research to support your argument....
Despite the fact that I have NOT posted any medical advice, just research, neither I nor ATS would be responsible for any actions taken by others for one simple fact you seem to keep ignoring: I posted RESEARCH. That research came from OTHER PEOPLE and can be found readily online
Have you seen the warning labels? Have you seen the advice/disclaimers included in online web pages?
So, is a researcher here in Italy responsible for someone's actions if they publish online a journal article that shows possible liver damage from aspirin,
~MFP
Originally posted by bsl4doc
Why in the world would they use a poison (if I am correct I believe I saw it listed in a post earlier as being the SECOND most deadliest poison/toxin) on the planet as a preservative to use in something to inject into our bodies? It seems to me it wouldn't take a medical doctor to figure out (through years of studies on HUMAN TEST OBJECTS) that this wasn't a very good idea!!!
No, thimerosal is not the second most toxic compound, neither is mercury the most toxic element. Thimerosal has never/i] been conclusively proven to cause anything in proper dosage. The amount used in vaccines was 0.001% - 0.01%, the amount shown to kill nearly all prokaryotic pathogens. This means in one vaccine, you are getting 25 micrograms, that's 25 x 10^(-6) grams or .000025g of mercury. There have been studies in which people received up to 1 mg(that's 1000 micrograms or 40 times the amount in pre-2000 vaccines) per kg and experienced little to no adverse effects, as seen in the link below.
www.fda.gov...
1st example...
So you equate an anonymous member of a conspiracy website posting research and giving an OPINION on it and providing a link to the source so the
person can read it for themselves to a medical advisory?
Well, in that case, according to that same behavior in other forums on this website, I must assume then that aliens are real, the world is ending in 2012, Bush is the antichrist, the apocalypse may be happening tomorrow, the CDC is controlling the population with disease, and reptillian creatures live beneath the Earth.
Read that paragraph above again. Now do you see how ridiculous it is to say that my offering of research and my opinion on that research is a medical opinion? ANYONE can do what I have done.
~MFP
Well, in that case, according to that same behavior in other forums on this website, I must assume then that aliens are real, the world is ending in 2012, Bush is the antichrist, the apocalypse may be happening tomorrow, the CDC is controlling the population with disease, and reptillian creatures live beneath the Earth.
Read that paragraph above again. Now do you see how ridiculous it is to say that my offering of research and my opinion on that research is a medical opinion? ANYONE can do what I have done.
~MFP
Originally posted by conspiracy_101
Thank you for clearing that up. Now that the vaccines are Thimerosal free
Vaccines are not free from Thimerosal... and yet..you have influenced conspiracy_101 into believing your incorrect research...
You need to be responsible... simple.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, NJE, but in Italy, and in America, nearly all vaccines used for infants are, in fact, thimerosal free.
Alternative and cheaper preservatives have been used since 2002. I posted a link to prove this, but I guess you couldn't manage to read that one.
Originally posted by bsl4doc
Read that paragraph above again. Now do you see how ridiculous it is to say that my offering of research and my opinion on that research is a medical opinion? ANYONE can do what I have done.~MFP
yes...but your not ANYONE are you? You are a medical student who claims to be educated on the matter..... big difference!
Do YOU know I'm a medical student? I may say it, and I am in fact a medical student, but why would you immediately trust anyone you read a post from
online, especially on a conspiracy theory website? It seems like you're just trying to pick a fight now.
You also didn't comment on the fact that the vaccines are in fact thimerosal free, as I stated to conspiracy_101. So...why are you attacking me for giving him blatant facts and showing him where I got those facts so he can interpret them on his own, as well?
[edit on 2/2/2006 by bsl4doc]
You also didn't comment on the fact that the vaccines are in fact thimerosal free, as I stated to conspiracy_101. So...why are you attacking me for giving him blatant facts and showing him where I got those facts so he can interpret them on his own, as well?
[edit on 2/2/2006 by bsl4doc]
1) There is no safe level for some of these poisons, such as formaldehyde and mercury, even if one of them was consumed or injected on its own.
2) Even if the quantity of any given ingredient was within a safe level, remember that a large number of these are being taken in all at once, which can lead to the accumulative toxicity being much higher.
3) Poisons such as formaldehyde and mercury are well known to have a sensitising effect on the body, i.e. they cause increased susceptibility to any foreign substance that it might encounter at the same time or in the future.
4) Even the manufacturers admit to a large list of adverse effects of vaccines, including even death.
The resultant damage, including brain damage, from these toxins can vary from mild enough not to be apparent, through to severe, in some cases death. You cannot inject a living being with these poisons and expect there to be no adverse effect at all. What varies, and varies greatly, is merely the degree of damage. The reason for the large variation in this degree of damage include:
great genetic variations in recipients, affecting susceptibility in general and susceptibility to specific vaccines
variations within one recipient from one time to another (due to biorhythms, other work the immune system is doing already fighting other infections, how many vaccines have already been given, etc),
and variations between vaccine batches - there is an acknowledged weakness in the area of controlling the levels of toxins in vaccines, resulting in some batches being labelled "hot lots". (Sadly even this identification does not necessarily result in recalls, but rather in distributing the "hot lot" as broadly as possible, as revealed in a leaked letter from a pharmaceutical company.) further reading
For chemical profiles and definitions
Mercury:
(Used in vaccines as a preservative.)
See this video filmed by the University of Calgary of an actual brain neuron - watch what happens to it when it is exposed to (a low amount of) mercury: Video
Mercury is the second most poisonous element known to man (next to uranium and its derivatives). As illustrated in the above video, neurons are observed to disintegrate in its presence. It has also been found to cause changes to chromosomes.
The U.S. has known about the potential problems of thimerosal (compound in vaccines that contains mercury) for many years. The World Health Organization voiced concerns as far back as 1990. Mercury is a highly toxic element which does not easily leave the body. Once ingested, injected, or inhaled, it stays and accumulates. An infant can receive in one day’s doses of vaccines as much as the absolute maximum set by the W.H.O. for 3 months of exposure, but it is not safe at ANY level.
Note: many old vaccines have not been removed from stock. So the fact that modern vaccines do not use mercury as a preservative does not mean that one automatically gets thimerosal free vaccines. USA
You failed to include this in your info...
2) Even if the quantity of any given ingredient was within a safe level, remember that a large number of these are being taken in all at once, which can lead to the accumulative toxicity being much higher.
3) Poisons such as formaldehyde and mercury are well known to have a sensitising effect on the body, i.e. they cause increased susceptibility to any foreign substance that it might encounter at the same time or in the future.
4) Even the manufacturers admit to a large list of adverse effects of vaccines, including even death.
The resultant damage, including brain damage, from these toxins can vary from mild enough not to be apparent, through to severe, in some cases death. You cannot inject a living being with these poisons and expect there to be no adverse effect at all. What varies, and varies greatly, is merely the degree of damage. The reason for the large variation in this degree of damage include:
great genetic variations in recipients, affecting susceptibility in general and susceptibility to specific vaccines
variations within one recipient from one time to another (due to biorhythms, other work the immune system is doing already fighting other infections, how many vaccines have already been given, etc),
and variations between vaccine batches - there is an acknowledged weakness in the area of controlling the levels of toxins in vaccines, resulting in some batches being labelled "hot lots". (Sadly even this identification does not necessarily result in recalls, but rather in distributing the "hot lot" as broadly as possible, as revealed in a leaked letter from a pharmaceutical company.) further reading
For chemical profiles and definitions
Mercury:
(Used in vaccines as a preservative.)
See this video filmed by the University of Calgary of an actual brain neuron - watch what happens to it when it is exposed to (a low amount of) mercury: Video
Mercury is the second most poisonous element known to man (next to uranium and its derivatives). As illustrated in the above video, neurons are observed to disintegrate in its presence. It has also been found to cause changes to chromosomes.
The U.S. has known about the potential problems of thimerosal (compound in vaccines that contains mercury) for many years. The World Health Organization voiced concerns as far back as 1990. Mercury is a highly toxic element which does not easily leave the body. Once ingested, injected, or inhaled, it stays and accumulates. An infant can receive in one day’s doses of vaccines as much as the absolute maximum set by the W.H.O. for 3 months of exposure, but it is not safe at ANY level.
Note: many old vaccines have not been removed from stock. So the fact that modern vaccines do not use mercury as a preservative does not mean that one automatically gets thimerosal free vaccines. USA
You failed to include this in your info...
Do you realize that you just committed two major debate sins?
1) You plagiarized basically a whole website, word for word.
2) The website you plagiarized is biased and provides no statistical or research basis for it's claims, much like your previous claims which I now suspect came from this or a similar website word for word.
First, you said several times that "mercury is used as a preservative". This is just blatantly false. THIMEROSAL is used as a preservative, which breaks down into ethylmercury and methymercury, depending on the pathway. Neither of these are pure mercury, do not have the same effect as pure mercury (even though they are still harmful), and thus cannot be studied the same as pure mercury. Your point is moot.
Also, as to your claim about formaldehyde, go buy a biochemistry book, (or really, even just google it) and look up the phrase "formaldehyde dehydrogenase". Oddly enough, our body has a way of handling fairly decent sized quantities of formaldhyde because it exists in nature. The amount found in vaccines (the ones that still use it) is no where near the amount a human body can reduce and metabolise.
I love how people toss around the concept of "most toxic element" on this thread, too. I've seen people say it's the most toxic, the second most toxic next to plutonium, and now the second most toxic next to uranium. Can someone please provide any credible citation for these?
Can you please find some research to support your claims?
Ciao,
~MFP
[edit on 2/2/2006 by bsl4doc]
[edit on 2/2/2006 by bsl4doc]
1) You plagiarized basically a whole website, word for word.
2) The website you plagiarized is biased and provides no statistical or research basis for it's claims, much like your previous claims which I now suspect came from this or a similar website word for word.
First, you said several times that "mercury is used as a preservative". This is just blatantly false. THIMEROSAL is used as a preservative, which breaks down into ethylmercury and methymercury, depending on the pathway. Neither of these are pure mercury, do not have the same effect as pure mercury (even though they are still harmful), and thus cannot be studied the same as pure mercury. Your point is moot.
Also, as to your claim about formaldehyde, go buy a biochemistry book, (or really, even just google it) and look up the phrase "formaldehyde dehydrogenase". Oddly enough, our body has a way of handling fairly decent sized quantities of formaldhyde because it exists in nature. The amount found in vaccines (the ones that still use it) is no where near the amount a human body can reduce and metabolise.
I love how people toss around the concept of "most toxic element" on this thread, too. I've seen people say it's the most toxic, the second most toxic next to plutonium, and now the second most toxic next to uranium. Can someone please provide any credible citation for these?
Can you please find some research to support your claims?
Ciao,
~MFP
[edit on 2/2/2006 by bsl4doc]
[edit on 2/2/2006 by bsl4doc]
Originally posted by NJE777
The resultant damage, including brain damage, from these toxins can vary from mild enough not to be apparent, through to severe, in some cases death. You cannot inject a living being with these poisons and expect there to be no adverse effect at all. What varies, and varies greatly, is merely the degree of damage. The reason for the large variation in this degree of damage include:
Yes the result can be brain damage. A close friend has been through hell after his first child was brain damaged from an immunization. I believe it was MMR. She was under two (cant remember exact age) and now is almost 8 years old and almost a vegetable. She has daily seizures, for almost 6 years now. At one point she was near death and had seizures every 15 minutes. She has to be fed from a tube and lives her life in bed or in a wheel chair. This is an example of one beautiful little girl who has had her life ruined not to mention the stress on a family. The parents have had four other children since and they will not be immunized. So far they are all very healthy and living a holistic lifestyle.
My children were immunized and I never questioned it. My kids are teenagers now and have never had any problems at all but if I had the choice again...... based knowing the experiences of this little girl, I would not immunize my children.
I understand the stats tell a different side of the story but when something hits close to home those numbers dont mean much.
Oh, no doubt it is a tragedy. But, as sad as it is, statistically, SOMEONE in that 1 million has to be the unlucky one whose number comes up. The real
question you have to ask yourself is do you want your children to run the 1 in 1 million chance of meningitis/encephalitis from the vaccine, or the 1
in 5000 chance from NOT being vaccinated.
Those numbers are from the same source, just didn't want to re-link it when it's right there.
Those numbers are from the same source, just didn't want to re-link it when it's right there.
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