Atheism vs. christianty

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
First, lottery point: What are the odds of lightning hitting that church in my lifetime?

Very good. Churches have steeples [lightening rods].

What are the odds of it hitting that church the day that a funeral is held for someone who told their widower before dying, that lightning would be a sign for them? What are the odds of it hitting at 1:00 PM that day (on the dot), the starting time for that funeral?

The concept of time is a human invention.. either it's co-incidental or ghosts exist and, in keeping with science, energy doesn't die it converts. How would the possibility of an 'after life' prove god?

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
What are the odds of it hitting that church the day that a funeral is held for someone who told their widower before dying, that lightning would be a sign for them? What are the odds of it hitting at 1:00 PM that day (on the dot), the starting time for that funeral? Its simply unknown allright, spam, because it is in the googleplex times googleplex to one range.

Googleplex Thats cute!

If you have a hard time believing that its a co-incidence then maybe you should look into the mysteries of human consciousness. Its still an unchartered territory in science..well..for now. We alter reality all the time the way we see fit.

Well I would definately be skeptical if his wife was continually able to produce lightening...On the same spot.

Good point with the lightening rods, riley!

Originally posted by I_s_i_s

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
What are the odds of it hitting that church the day that a funeral is held for someone who told their widower before dying, that lightning would be a sign for them? What are the odds of it hitting at 1:00 PM that day (on the dot), the starting time for that funeral? Its simply unknown allright, spam, because it is in the googleplex times googleplex to one range.

If you have a hard time believing that its a co-incidence then maybe you should look into the mysteries of human consciousness. Well I would definately be skeptical if his wife was continually able to produce lightening...On the same spot.

Well... first I accept that there is a chance it was just coincidence. I always have. It could have any number of causes. In my replies to the lottery comparison, I had hoped to clarify how disparate the odds are. One of them is approx. 14 million to 1 (that I win, say), and the other is a tough statisticians probability challenge.
Two things. His wife never claimed to produce anything. She passed away within two weeks of telling her husband that lightning was to be the sign.

Originally posted by riley
How would the possibility of an 'after life' prove god?

It does not, imo. I doubt anything supernatural would be proof of god, agreed? I have yet to see proof of god.

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
[First, lottery point: What are the odds of lightning hitting that church in my lifetime? What are the odds of it hitting that church the day that a funeral is held for someone who told their widower before dying, that lightning would be a sign for them? What are the odds of it hitting at 1:00 PM that day (on the dot), the starting time for that funeral? Its simply unknown allright, spam, because it is in the googleplex times googleplex to one range.

If your argument is that at some threshold of improbability, god is involved, what is the threshold, and how did you go about determining god is not involved in picking lottery winners, but he does get involved in lightning striking churches at just the right time?

Span - God is no respecter of persons, He treats everyone equally when it comes to the game of life. Some of us even get more to put us on the potters wheel to make and mold us.

Originally posted by spamandham
If your argument is that at some threshold of improbability, god is involved, what is the threshold, and how did you go about determining god is not involved in picking lottery winners, but he does get involved in lightning striking churches at just the right time?

Considering these four excerpts from my earlier posts in this very thread, I am skeptical that my position is remotely like you contend.

'I am not sure if God is real. ' post #1941926

'You can call it coincidence, and may be right. 'post #1951976

'As I said twice before, I have no idea what purpose there is for the existence of such phenomena. ' post #1954854

‘I doubt anything supernatural would be proof of god, agreed? I have yet to see proof of god.’ Post # 1981681

"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge, argument, an exchange of ignorance." Robert Quillen

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
Considering these four excerpts from my earlier posts in this very thread, I am skeptical that my position is remotely like you contend.

On a general level you admit this instance might be coincidence, yet you keep referring back to the odds of the church/lightning incidenent, as if that fundamentally changes anything. The odds of this particular instance are not relevant to whether or not it was coincidence, so it seems odd to keep pointing out how unlikely it is. Surely you can understand why that would lead others to be confused about your position?

I have had 6 to 8 precognitive dreams in my life. They have always been a puzzle. I have seen David Copperfield live three times, once from the 7th row. He does some pretty wild stuff. I have had dozens of coincidences happen which are nearly as amazing as the church/lightning 1PM one. When my co-worker told us about the message his wife told him, everyone but me had 'that look' in their eyes. I am no slouch intellectually, the government tests put me in the top 2 percentile. But after all that I still doubted that there was something paranormal at work. When my fiance got hurt in 04, there was a couple of things that occured that blew me away, and I started to review all the things that I had for 35 years filed under 'neato', but never tried to reconcile with my view of the universe. I understand your position, totally. If I had lived your life, I bet I would be asking the same things. But, in my life there have been too many various events that are 'coincidences', 'synchronicities', and other inexplicable phenomena. If you were my coworker and your wife was weeks from dying, and told you there would be a sign, lightning. Then, at the precise moment her funeral was scheduled to start, lightning struck the church, can you imagine what you would have thought? If it was a coincidence, fine, but I don't believe it was. I have seen many things far harder to explain.

PS. Spam, Being that I am over 10 months older than you, you could just accept my more experienced position. One should always respect ones elders, lol.

[edit on 03 22 2005 by BlackGuardXIII]

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
i've attended an apostolic pentecostal church before, hell, i've attended a a gathering of every religion that i meets within 100 miles of me. it was while i was an agnostic, and trying to find truth. i found nothing in ANY organized religion, so i took nondogmatic, nondoctrinal theravada buddhism.

i went to the pentecoastal service about a year ago, and it was nothing special.

i'll attend another one on sunday, just to take you up on your offer, hokay?

I U2U'd you but you must not have got it, so I'll say it here. IF you actually attend a service and IF it is an Apostolic Pentecostal Church (UPCI or PAW) then I ask right now in Jesus NAME that they preach specifically to you and convict your heart of its sin. That you would be moved to repent, follow the guidance of scripture by being baptised in Jesus name and that you would quit fighting God to let Him give you the gift of the Holy Ghost and speak in tongues. If this doesn't happen, then one of two things happened. Either you didn't attend one of His churches or you didn't have an ear to hear. There is no other way this could not happen. I have declared it to you and God WILL deliver, because His word WILL NOT come back void, He is incapable of lying and His promises are true AND because I have asked it and He listens to His children if they askit in His name and it is for His kingdom's good (solid). And I am taking this as a challenge similar to Elijah, I want the fire of the Holy Ghost to hit YOU and consume your sin so "Let the god who is the real God answer by sending down fire from Heaven" as His Word declares, in Jesus name.

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
PS. Spam, Being that I am over 10 months older than you, you could just accept my more experienced position. One should always respect ones elders, lol.

That being the case, I humbly conceed.

Originally posted by OneGodJesus

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
i've attended an apostolic pentecostal church before, hell, i've attended a a gathering of every religion that i meets within 100 miles of me. it was while i was an agnostic, and trying to find truth. i found nothing in ANY organized religion, so i took nondogmatic, nondoctrinal theravada buddhism.

I want the fire of the Holy Ghost to hit YOU and consume your sin so "Let the god who is the real God answer by sending down fire from Heaven" as His Word declares, in Jesus name.

We have a winner!

Do you have ANY idea how judgmental and self righteous you sound? Oh no.. someone prefers to follow a belief system that is ENTIRELY non violent and peaceful.. they must be a SINNER!!

Originally posted by riley

Originally posted by OneGodJesus

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
i've attended an apostolic pentecostal church before, hell, i've attended a a gathering of every religion that i meets within 100 miles of me. it was while i was an agnostic, and trying to find truth. i found nothing in ANY organized religion, so i took nondogmatic, nondoctrinal theravada buddhism.

I want the fire of the Holy Ghost to hit YOU and consume your sin so "Let the god who is the real God answer by sending down fire from Heaven" as His Word declares, in Jesus name.

We have a winner!

Do you have ANY idea how judgmental and self righteous you sound? Oh no.. someone prefers to follow a belief system that is ENTIRELY non violent and peaceful.. they must be a SINNER!!

Easy pal, it's not me saying it, it is the Word that says "for ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God" (my emphasis) I am just to deliver the message, if you don't like it don't listen. So you got a problem with it take it up with God. It is typical attacks like this that signal your carnality not being submissive to His will. I understand because I've been there, so I forgive the attack.

Edit: And I am not saying HE should be consumed by fire ya silly, just the sin. The Word says God is a consuming flame, that it is praise and His presence that makes evil flee so the sinner can convert. If you take it to mean ANYTHING different it is you who are being judgemental and defensive (as I presume you are judging me to be).

[edit on 3/2/06 by OneGodJesus]

Originally posted by OneGodJesus
Easy pal, it's not me saying it, it is the Word that says "for ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God" (my emphasis) I am just to deliver the message, if you don't like it don't listen.

I really shouldn't be surprised that you absolved yourself the responsibility of throwing stones by blaming god.

So you got a problem with it take it up with God.

But you just said you speak FOR god! Which is it?

It is typical attacks like this

Oh yes.. NOW I remember you. Persecuted guy.. I thought we established that you were NOT being persecuted and in fact only WANTED to be persecuted.. you even tried to make it real by provoking nasty reactions out of others by making biggoted statements about their beliefs. Is this about you wanting to qualify as 'meek' or 'chosen'? Do you want to inherit the earth?

"They told me off just because I was pelting rocks at them.. they said mean things. They should be punnished.. anyone got any rocks?!"

that signal your carnality not being submissive to His will. I understand because I've been there, so I forgive the attack.

Edit: And I am not saying HE should be consumed by fire ya silly, just the sin. The Word says God is a consuming flame, that it is praise and His presence that makes evil flee so the sinner can convert. If you take it to mean ANYTHING different it is you who are being judgemental and defensive (as I presume you are judging me to be).

er.. you just called him a sinner. Sinner means immoral.. that is a judgement on his moral charactor [and anyone else who won't convert.] Whats your problem with buddhism? It basically follows Jesus' philosophies [specifically love and tolerence] anyway.

[edit on 3-2-2006 by riley]

[edit on 3-2-2006 by riley]

Originally posted by riley
1) I really shouldn't be surprised that you absolved yourself the responsibility of throwing stones by blaming god.
2) But you just said you speak FOR god! Which is it?
3) Oh yes.. NOW I remember you. Persecuted guy.. I thought we established that you were NOT being persecuted and in fact only WANTED to be persecuted.. you even tried to make it real by provoking nasty reactions out of others by making biggoted statements about their beliefs. Is this about you wanting to qualify as 'meek' or 'chosen'? Do you want to inherit the earth?
4) "They told me off just because I was pelting rocks at them.. they said mean things. They should be punnished.. anyone got any rocks?!"
5) er.. you just called him a sinner. Sinner means immoral.. that is a judgement on his moral charactor [and anyone else who won't convert.] Whats your problem with buddhism? It basically follows Jesus' philosophies [specifically love and tolerence] anyway.

[edit on 3-2-2006 by riley]

Item One:
Whatever.
Item two:
I never said I speak for God, I am sharing with people who would never normally even pick up His Word in the first place. I mean you share YOUR opinion about atheism everywhere you tread in this arena, why should I not be allowed? Are you more special than me? More enlightened? I think not. It take discipline to believe in something, and committment. This is completely foriegn to you as you apparently believe in nothing, right? I mean if it bothers you that another has a faith that you lack then who is bigger the faithful or the faithless? It does not mean I speak for Him, that would necessitate that I was adding to it and I cannot.

Item three:
I won't address another thread in this one about YOUR assessment of what role YOU percieve me to play. Just because I didn't play by you and your friends rules and return to that thread, the jokes on you and your buddies.

Item four:
You need attention, I ask God give it to you...

Item five:
He IS a sinner, what part of "it is in the scriptures" don't you understand, oh all knowing one...

Your attacks are as laughable as you are pitiful. I'll pray that God sets you right soon, maybe a close call to jolt you awake to the reality that God is in control no matter how hard you deny your ignorance.....lol.

[edit on 3/2/06 by OneGodJesus]

Originally posted by OneGodJesus

Originally posted by riley
5) er.. you just called him a sinner. Sinner means immoral.. that is a judgement on his moral charactor [and anyone else who won't convert.] Whats your problem with buddhism? It basically follows Jesus' philosophies [specifically love and tolerence] anyway.

[edit on 3-2-2006 by riley]

Item five:
He IS a sinner, what part of "it is in the scriptures" don't you understand, oh all knowing one...

Your attacks are as laughable as you are pitiful. I'll pray that God sets you right soon, maybe a close call to jolt you awake to the reality that God is in control no matter how hard you deny your ignorance.....lol.

[edit on 3/2/06 by OneGodJesus]

1gj, you've got to accept the fact that not all people take your scriptures, or even your interpretation of the scriptures, as trustworth evidence.

if 2 people are arguing on the same topic with 2 different sets of postulates, it's just going to turn into a flamewar.

Originally posted by OneGodJesus
I never said I speak for God,

Actually you validated your opinion by claiming the bible supports it.. even though the bible is completly interpritive.. miss-translated and there are whole sections missing. You have no idea if your interpritation is correct.. and your assertion that you do means that you think you know what your god wants.. hence you think you speak for your god. Are you a biblical scholar?

I am sharing with people who would never normally even pick up His Word in the first place.

I did. I have read through entire texts [new jerusalem & king james] on more than one occasion.. I was raised on the bible.

I mean you share YOUR opinion about atheism everywhere you tread in this arena, why should I not be allowed?

Well.. for starters your anti-atheism thread was on the brink of breaking ATS rules.. and your opinions about the beliefs of others are biggoted and hatefilled. You also frequently justify your attacks on others by playing victim.. I do not know why you continue this 'debate' method as it doesn't wash.

Are you more special than me? More enlightened? I think not.

Of course you don't.. you have deemed anyone who does not share your beliefs as sinful. If you even considered their beliefs to be valid or to hold any virtue.. your high moral ground would crumble beneath you and you'd have no platform to throw rocks from.

It take discipline to believe in something, and committment. This is completely foriegn to you as you apparently believe in nothing, right?

Wrong.. there is no such thing as nothing. Lack of deity does not equal lack of spirituality.

I mean if it bothers you that another has a faith that you lack then who is bigger the faithful or the faithless? It does not mean I speak for Him, that would necessitate that I was adding to it and I cannot.

It doesn't bother me that others have faith.. it bothers me when they use their faith to persecute others.

Item three:
I won't address another thread in this one about YOUR assessment of what role YOU percieve me to play. Just because I didn't play by you and your friends rules and return to that thread, the jokes on you and your buddies.

You slinked away because you couldn't ethically justify yourself without having to aplogise.

Item five:
He IS a sinner, what part of "it is in the scriptures" don't you understand, oh all knowing one...

Your attacks are as laughable as you are pitiful. I'll pray that God sets you right soon, maybe a close call to jolt you awake to the reality that God is in control no matter how hard you deny your ignorance.....lol.

My attacks?
Ever heared of the boy who cried wolf? If you want to play innocent victim convincingly- you need to actually BE the part and not insult other people's beliefs. I'd also like to know what 'close call' means? Usually that means almost dieing or getting seriously hurt.. too late. I almost had my neck broken two years ago.. it didn't convert me. Do you really wish something bad to happen to me? ..aren't curses suppose to be the DEVIL's domain??

OneGod Jesus....

LET NO MAN PASS JUDGMENT ON ANOTHER, LEST HE BE JUDGED ALIKE. JUDGMENT IS THE DOMAIN OF GOD, NOT OF MAN.

You dare to judge others, and not only that, you ask for God to do harm to a person so that they know God exists?! What sort of Christian are you!?

The Wrathful God of the old Testament was given over to the New Testament, the New Promise which Jesus Christ brought with him. A promise that all sins are forgiven, that love and tolerance is the way, that one should sit and part bread with those of any other faith in good will and security that YOUR soul belongs to HIM.

Your place is NOT to judge others, your place is NOT to determine the will of GOD! YOU HAVE NO RIGHT! You also have no right to force your beliefs on ANYONE, whether that is to save their soul or NOT. Only through the son of God can you attain passage to Heaven, and Christ would NEVER, EVER threaten a human soul with the wroth of his progenitor! It is UNGODLY, it is UNCHRISTIAN!

Sinner or not a sinner, you have no right.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

Originally posted by OneGodJesus

Originally posted by riley
5) er.. you just called him a sinner. Sinner means immoral.. that is a judgement on his moral charactor [and anyone else who won't convert.] Whats your problem with buddhism? It basically follows Jesus' philosophies [specifically love and tolerence] anyway.

[edit on 3-2-2006 by riley]

Item five:
He IS a sinner, what part of "it is in the scriptures" don't you understand, oh all knowing one...

Your attacks are as laughable as you are pitiful. I'll pray that God sets you right soon, maybe a close call to jolt you awake to the reality that God is in control no matter how hard you deny your ignorance.....lol.

[edit on 3/2/06 by OneGodJesus]

1gj, you've got to accept the fact that not all people take your scriptures, or even your interpretation of the scriptures, as trustworth evidence.

if 2 people are arguing on the same topic with 2 different sets of postulates, it's just going to turn into a flamewar.

Point taken and thanks for not flaming me.

Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
OneGod Jesus....

LET NO MAN PASS JUDGMENT ON ANOTHER, LEST HE BE JUDGED ALIKE. JUDGMENT IS THE DOMAIN OF GOD, NOT OF MAN.

You dare to judge others, and not only that, you ask for God to do harm to a person so that they know God exists?! What sort of Christian are you!?

The Wrathful God of the old Testament was given over to the New Testament, the New Promise which Jesus Christ brought with him. A promise that all sins are forgiven, that love and tolerance is the way, that one should sit and part bread with those of any other faith in good will and security that YOUR soul belongs to HIM.

Your place is NOT to judge others, your place is NOT to determine the will of GOD! YOU HAVE NO RIGHT! You also have no right to force your beliefs on ANYONE, whether that is to save their soul or NOT. Only through the son of God can you attain passage to Heaven, and Christ would NEVER, EVER threaten a human soul with the wroth of his progenitor! It is UNGODLY, it is UNCHRISTIAN!

Sinner or not a sinner, you have no right.

Vehement arean't you? Actually I do have the right. The Word is good for what? " All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness"

And I'm guessing we can just throw away the whole first part of 1 Cor 6 because YOU say I'm being judgemental...Pal I will be judging ANGELS, how much moreso men who haved sinned. I don't condemn them just judge the sin as evil and in need of changing. That is the difference, love the man hate the sin. You folks just can't seem to understand that. You lump it all together and say we are being judgemental...wrong again. Before you start tossing rocks of the Word back at me, study to show yourself approved and then come and talk to me about what you think I am and am not doing.