Good remains triumphant over Evil

Originally posted by Produkt
It's funny how you continue to avoid a simple yes or no question.

It is funny how utterly irrelevant that is.

Your belief of an easter bunny or a santa or of any other false belief would imprint upon your children. You would naturally imprint those belief's onto your children. My prior knowledge of what you belive will have no impact upon what you teach your children to believe. What your willing to tell your children is of you and you alone, not of my prior knowledge of your belief's. So, again. Yes or no

YOU do not define what is false about beliefs. Neither do I. You have claimed that santa and the easter bunny are false beliefs. You have made a statement of knowledge. What if *I* believed they were true? Either I am mistakenly believing in something that is not, or I am believing in something that is. It boils down to belief though, which is a construct of lying to ones self. I will let my children discern for themselves what they believe, and then I will try and tear it down. That doesn't involve me lying.

And yes, I will rightly and justly say there is no true natural law of good or evil. I will rightly state it's based upon personal belief's and society belief's. I will also admit emotion' are chemical in nature, brought about by natural processes within your brain's. We already know alot about the pleasure center. When excited by electrical current's, it produce's a chemical that make's us "feel" good. This is a proven, scientific and repeatable fact.

So, tell me how this came to BE. If it is true, all you should have to do is tell me HOW you KNOW it to be true and I shall instantly be converted against my will! For if it is true, I will have no ability to refute it!

Science is only ignorance disguised well, Religion ignorance disguised poorly.

When it comes down to it, you have lied to me. You claimed something you cannot possibly know as true, because you have based it all upon what others have informed you of... school, society, peers, magazines, newspapers, etc.

You stated absolute knowledge. You stated absolute truth. Why are there still doubters with someone such as you?

Originally posted by Produkt
The same ignorance and aragoance your showing in your post's on this thread. Ignorance of the fact's. Arogance brought about by your ignorance in thinking that those fact's are untrue.

Where... exactly... did I claim to KNOW anything? Please supply me with a quote.

My beliefs on my purposes aside, I know that I know nothing at all. You pretend at knowledge, you pretend at wisdom, you pretend your existence is understandable because you accept what you are fed. You may be picky, you may pick and choose, but you accept just the same.

It is funny how utterly irrelevant that is.

Actually, it is, based upon your earlier post's. Your failure to see that, doesn't make it irrelevant.

I will let my children discern for themselves what they believe, and then I will try and tear it down. That doesn't involve me lying.

So, as a person of "truth" you would allow your children to believe in a falsehood. Later to tear down their belief's that made them happy. When would you tear down this belief of say, santa. How would they learn of santa from an early age, prior to any other influence's but your's? Would you allow them to watch the lie's spread on television of santa, let them develope the belief of santa, then destroy that beleif as the bringer of truth?

So, tell me how this came to BE.

Appearently your not understanding how science works. We don't know as of yet HOW it came to be, but we do know that this is HOW it works. You can deny the fact that certain chemical's produced within the brain bring about emotional response's all you want. Your failure to accept certain truth's/fact's has no impact upon them. Your failure to accept the reproducable experiment's that lead to our knowledge of these fact's, or your failure to test these reproducable experiment's would just negate any argument of you having the purpose of teaching the truth. There's your ignorance, and there's your arrogance.

No, I haven't tested the experiment's themselve's. I do however trust the experiment's that have been done, that have led to product's that change the chemical's within the brain of it's user. It's already been shown, reproducibly, experimentally, and put into practice through medication's that emotion's are checmical in nature. Sadness and depression, emotion's that are "treatable" by other chemical's (medications). They're being used everyday, with proven effect's. You ignorance of denying this fact is leading to your arrogance of preaching what your preaching.

So, as a person of "truth" you would allow your children to believe in a falsehood. Later to tear down their belief's that made them happy. When would you tear down this belief of say, santa. How would they learn of santa from an early age, prior to any other influence's but your's? Would you allow them to watch the lie's spread on television of santa, let them develope the belief of santa, then destroy that beleif as the bringer of truth?

I said try and tear it down. All beliefs are either torn down or they stand the weather. You should always tear down beliefs **IF YOU CAN**.

Appearently your not understanding how science works. We don't know as of yet HOW it came to be, but we do know that this is HOW it works.

That is my point, you don't know how it came to be. On top of that, regardless of what you say, you also don't know how it works. You only know a model of how it could work, which bears the brunt of examination and repeatable testing. This does not make it true, it only makes it likely to be true.

You can deny the fact

You haven't given me any facts, only evidence.

that certain chemical's produced within the brain bring about emotional response's all you want. Your failure to accept certain truth's/fact's has no impact upon them.

You haven't given me truth or facts, only evidence of one particular ideology, worshipper of Science.

Your failure to accept the reproducable experiment's that lead to our knowledge of these fact's, or your failure to test these reproducable experiment's would just negate any argument of you having the purpose of teaching the truth. There's your ignorance, and there's your arrogance.

Reproducibility does not truth make, merely inclination to be true. You honestly know nothing, and are just the same as I am. The difference is you believe yourself to be wise, whereas I believe myself to be ignorant.

No, I haven't tested the experiment's themselve's. I do however trust

You haven't tested. You TRUST. Even with a test, you are only accepting what you can convince yourself of.

the experiment's that have been done, that have led to product's that change the chemical's within the brain of it's user. It's already been shown, reproducibly, experimentally, and put into practice through medication's that emotion's are checmical in nature.

Just because it works doesn't mean that the model is sound, no matter how much evidence backs you up. Humans, thinking they know even 1% of 1% is ludicrous. The universe is vast and stranger than you can possibly imagine.

Sadness and depression, emotion's that are "treatable" by other chemical's (medications). They're being used everyday, with proven effect's. You ignorance of denying this fact is leading to your arrogance of preaching what your preaching.

You're right. I am denying. I still haven't seen any facts, only evidence to support a theory, you Worshipper of Science. Do you think somehow you are different from the Worshippers of God? Both of you claim to have some form of divine knowledge.

If Science had all the answers, there would be no more need for it, would there... Worshipper of Science?

I exist in the void, in the dark place where knowledge is a light upon the horizon. However far I walk, I will never KNOW, but I must walk towards it... the only other option is to stand still, and to never have the possibility of KNOWING.

Question Everything, for the Unexamined Life is not worth Living.

I said try and tear it down. All beliefs are either torn down or they stand the weather. You should always tear down beliefs **IF YOU CAN**.

Yet, as stated by your ownself, your purpose in life is to bring about truth. Therefore, by your own purpose, you shouldn't let your children develope the belief's of holiday tradition's, nor religous observation's. They are false, and by your own statement's need to be shown as such. So, why would you let them develope such belief's, only to tear it away from them when it make's them happy thinking as such?

[EDIT]

Forgot to add...

As the first and foremost influence upon your children, would you, at an early stage in their live's, allow them to believe in these falsehood's, or would you tell them right from the start that it's false. Say they see a santa cartoon on television, will you tell them, right then and there that there is no santa. Or would you allow them, you as the bringer of truth, to believe in santa untill they learn the truth on their own. If you allow them to discover the truth on their own, then how are you truely a bringer of truth for allowing them to believe in a false belief?

That is my point, you don't know how it came to be. On top of that, regardless of what you say, you also don't know how it works. You only know a model of how it could work, which bears the brunt of examination and repeatable testing. This does not make it true, it only makes it likely to be true.

Really? So the properties of electricity or the properties of flight or the inner working's of computer's are only just likely to be true and not actually true based upon what? My failure to experimentally reproduce the effect's myself? In that light, nothing your saying is true. Just probably true. Which would negate any of your belief's of what is truth.

It's not just a model of how it could work. It's a proven model of HOW it work's. It's far from a model of why however. Are you going to say that all the drug's in use that change the checmical interaction's of manic depression patient's aren't truely working based upon your lack of learning about how the interaction's work and not instead, based upon the already proven result's?

You haven't given me truth or facts, only evidence of one particular ideology, worshipper of Science.

The fact's and truth's of science are what's allowing you this very moment to post's your ignorance of those fact's and truth's. It's allowing you this very moment to show off your arrogance of what your preaching as truth.

Let's do a simple experiment. I believe, that it is true, that a super ball can be bounced every time I throw it down on the asphalt. I keep bouncing it and it truely keep's bouncing off the asphalt. You do the same experiment at your own liesure, truth be told, my theory was indeed turned into a fact. The fact being, that ball did bounce and continued to bounce every time I threw it down onto the asphalt.

If Science had all the answers, there would be no more need for it, would there... Worshipper of Science?

Surprisingly, science denies it has all the answer's! Amazing isn't it? Religion pretty much sums all the answer's into one divine force, god. Science is a continual aspect of human culture. We're alway's learning and alway's revising what we're learning untill we've got it right. The physic's of aeroplane's, a proven fact/truth, or else we wouldn't be flying! Your lack of understanding it doesn't make it untrue or not a fact. It just mean's you wish to deny and pretend other meaning's. Falsehood's. Which again, negate's any argument of truth you've been preaching. Your far from the bringer of truth, and your own ignorance and arrogance has shown that.

[edit on 7-2-2006 by Produkt]

Thanks to this conversation, I'm pro-choice.

So maybe you all should stop going back and forth with how little you both know, and take a look back in history. Learning how our planet works and how it's been affected will give you both a better look at how the universe works. The religious squabble will be squashed, and we won't have to hear this conversation for the umpteenth time.

Look at our present situation, and why we are here. Look at the past, and why what happened happened. Wonder why the ice caps are there now, when so many years ago they weren't; it's not cyclical or natural, they were placed there. Wonder why and how fire and water are used to purge the earth. Delve into human nature, and ponder the many wonders so many before us have already figured out about our diet, acoustics and geometry.

An economic depression and climate collapse is coming, and with 6 billion people on this planet right before 2012 that got built up only a hundred years before it I don't think it's a coincidence. Wondering how all this happened and why will really open your eyes as to how the universe works.

[edit on 7-2-2006 by bigpappadiaz]

bigpappadiaz,

You talk about the eventual demise of religion, yet speak in religous view's. Are you suggestion the planet intentionally place the ice caps here? Are you saying the planet intentionally caused flood's and flash fire's and droughts? This sound's alot like the Mother Earth/Gia theory, which in a way is a sort of religion.

Rock's, lava, gas's, ice aren't living structure's. There's nothing divine about that planet. It's just a planet, one of many in this galaxy. A forest fire striking somewhere during a drought isn't a sign of the earth intentionally purging itself. Which is how your comming off about it.

Global warming, loss of the ice caps, your right, they aren't a coincidence. It's happening thanks to how we pollute our planet. It's not mother nature purging us, it's us destroying our world. Definatly not a coincidence.

Nowhere in my post did I say anything about Mother Earth/Gia or even suggest it, somebody sent that crap though. You can interpret that however you want.

Nobody sent that crap. In the manner you were posting, it did sound to me, at the time, that you were implying some form of gia theory.

Nobody is causing the weather to do what it does. It's a natural unintelligent proccess. Nobody dumped tons of ice at the exact spots where they would remain frozen. Ice naturally freezes at certain temperature's. Nobody forced a drought, nor forced a forest fire, exept fire delibratley set by man. Nobody is forcing the change's in sea level's, this is due to our pollution bringing about global warming, melting the naturally occuring ice at our pole's which dumps excess water into our ocean's. It's all perfectly natural and understood.

Since your claiming "someone" put ice at our pole's and whatnot. Who is this someone? What evidence do you have for this claim? Do you know something that the rest of the world isn't privy too?

well i feel special, because i know something apparently no body else seems to know. themselves.

thats right, its the only knowledge, is knowing what you want and who you are. life is about living, and living is about forfilling what you feel is what you want to do. KNOWING that, there isnt anything to stand in your way. you indentify all your problems because you truely understand yourself. science is a tool, that we are unable to use correctly yet because we dont know who we are. What we feel is right and wrong will become one once we start thinking on the same elevated level of thinking. reason being we will be able to see whats worth pursuing and what isnt, further more discover why it is or isnt. we will be able to do this because we will find out what it is we want and why we want it. we may say i want money, but then we think why we want it and say "to have lots of stuff" again ask why? answering that you say "so i can use it" but then i ask why would you want to use it? what connection are you making with these items?

when they figure out that these items are nothing more then time consumers unless you are experiencing it and connecting with some one else, then knowledge will progress. we are all connected, as one entity, energy. all things will root down to this energy. we are one divided into pieces waiting to become whole again. we are a form of energy, and we must all connect if we wish to further understand ourselves and the places we live in, and all that is around us.

in the end though, there is no right or wrong...good or evil, only what we believe is worth doing, and when we gain the only true knowledge, which is knowing ourselves, we will truely be able to determine what is worth doing and isnt worth doing. "the only thing we know is real in this universe is ourselves" this philosopher changed my life when i heard that because i found that the only thing we are capable of knowing is ourselves, beyond that its just tools to better understand ourselves and connect to other who are trying to do the same.

the first step is understanding you dont know anything, then the next step is finding out who you are, knowing why you want things and what it is you want. once we all reach this science will hold great promise, not because we know that its true, but that we know how to use it and what part of it are worth doing.

we believe knowing is knowing god, or knowing science. science isnt knowledge, just a tool. God and religion isnt knowing because its a belief. we were told to pursue knowledge thinking that we knew what it was. pursue knowing, knowing yourselve. that doesnt mean that god cant exist, that is still a belief. that doesnt mean science isnt right, because its a tool that can still be utilized if we learn how to use it. nuclear energy...one of those sciences that we learned and didnt say "this isnt worth doing" because we dont think.

"Knowledge without science leads to peace. Knowledge with science leads to promising times. Science without knowledge leads to destruction."

grimreaper797,

science is a tool, that we are unable to use correctly yet because we dont know who we are.

How are we to discover who we are, if we don't use science? If science is the tool to discover who we are, then our improper usuage of science brought about by our lack of knowing who we are, would "dirty" anything we learn about ourselve's and world. Everything we would learn as a result would inherently, be wrong. This isn't the case. Yes, science is a tool of learning. The horrible cold truth is, the universe has no feeling's. It doesn't care if you know squat about yourself. It will keep ticking away in the same manner it has for billion's of year's now. Your lack nor anyone's lack of understanding fully who they are, isn't going to rewrite physic's. What we discover, through science (the tool), has alway's been there and will alway's be there. Thing's don't become mysteriously understandable just because you start to understand yourself. They become understandable, because we learned about it. We used our science, tested our theories, experimented.

reason being we will be able to see whats worth pursuing and what isnt, further more discover why it is or isnt. we will be able to do this because we will find out what it is we want and why we want it. we may say i want money, but then we think why we want it and say "to have lots of stuff" again ask why? answering that you say "so i can use it" but then i ask why would you want to use it? what connection are you making with these items?

Interesting. Yet ignorant. Greed, territory, self indulgence and a vast amount of other emotion's and instict's are at play here. To answer the last question, use it for entertainment. But then you could go furthur, why do you want entertainment. It make's me happy. Why does it make you happy. etc etc etc. You could go on almost forever with that statement. Just because human's are capable of voicing want's or need's doesn't mean they need to question why to discover more about who they are. If anything, doing the same method of questioning would lead to desicion's that never get made. I am hungry. Why am I hungry. What brought about this hunger. Simple answer to both situation's.

when they figure out that these items are nothing more then time consumers unless you are experiencing it and connecting with some one else, then knowledge will progress. we are all connected, as one entity, energy. all things will root down to this energy. we are one divided into pieces waiting to become whole again. we are a form of energy, and we must all connect if we wish to further understand ourselves and the places we live in, and all that is around us.

Have you yet firgured out that the computer/internet are nothing more then time consumer's? Has your knowledge of anything else progressed much after you figured this out? The sad truth is, we're not all interconnect being's made of energy. That's akin to religous belief's in an attempt to explain the thing's we don't understand about our universe. Why are we here. What happen's when we die. What is conciousness. Why do I think. Complex questions that religion give's extremly basic, simple answer's for. You calim we're all energy based being's interconnected as such and untill we understand that. not much progress will ever be made. Where's your evidence for this? If anything, it's painfully obvious what we're made up of and what we're not. If you can't see that, then well ...

We know very little about ourselve's. We're still debating how DNA, the very thing that create's us, came about. We're still trying to understand the complex chemical reaction's within our bodies that produce emotion's. We're still trying to understand why we still have many basic animal instinct's when we're supposedly more highly evolved then other species. There is no spirit. There's nothing to even indicate anything of the sort. There's no magical plane of concious existence. Your brain is nothing more than an extremely advance computer, with an operating system that evolved to such a high order that it lead to intelligence. It won't be long before computer's we use today evolve true intelligence. They then will be asking themselves the same question's perhaps. Will computer's one day start believing they have a soul and if the energy that power's them ceases to do so, they magically be transfered to the great MMORPG in the sky?

Originally posted by Produkt
grimreaper797,
How are we to discover who we are, if we don't use science? If science is the tool to discover who we are, then our improper usuage of science brought about by our lack of knowing who we are, would "dirty" anything we learn about ourselve's and world. Everything we would learn as a result would inherently, be wrong. This isn't the case. Yes, science is a tool of learning. The horrible cold truth is, the universe has no feeling's. It doesn't care if you know squat about yourself. It will keep ticking away in the same manner it has for billion's of year's now. Your lack nor anyone's lack of understanding fully who they are, isn't going to rewrite physic's. What we discover, through science (the tool), has alway's been there and will alway's be there. Thing's don't become mysteriously understandable just because you start to understand yourself. They become understandable, because we learned about it. We used our science, tested our theories, experimented.

youve completely missed what i was saying. we dont need science at all to know who we are. we use science to make our life easier, but its in no form a way of life. our lack of understanding doesnt change physics but does change how we use it and how effectively we use it. our mind function and the findings of science are connected ina physical sense, but because i understand how i work and why i no longer encounter any social problems, for i know before i even act all the possibilities of my actions. i know these because i know who i am and how i will react. this allows me to make the best possible choice. its not about how our minds will change science, but how our minds will change the way we USE science.

Interesting. Yet ignorant. Greed, territory, self indulgence and a vast amount of other emotion's and instict's are at play here. To answer the last question, use it for entertainment. But then you could go furthur, why do you want entertainment. It make's me happy. Why does it make you happy. etc etc etc. You could go on almost forever with that statement. Just because human's are capable of voicing want's or need's doesn't mean they need to question why to discover more about who they are. If anything, doing the same method of questioning would lead to desicion's that never get made. I am hungry. Why am I hungry. What brought about this hunger. Simple answer to both situation's.

why does it make you happy? if you could answer that maybe it would end there, but in truth i doubt you could because your making no real connection with anyone. you merely spark a chemical reaction that causes you to say i like this, but your not thinking or exploring. we should be exploring science, no watchin tv. but before any of us can explore science we must explore our own state of minds and train of thoughts. until we understand ourselves, science will only lead to destruction. living at peace is the ultimate goal. once we are at peace we must perfect science, till there nothing left to explore (which will probably last thousands to millions of years) once weve gain everything we will go back to connecting, maybe helping the less evolved races find there way to peaceful living.

Have you yet firgured out that the computer/internet are nothing more then time consumer's? Has your knowledge of anything else progressed much after you figured this out? The sad truth is, we're not all interconnect being's made of energy. That's akin to religous belief's in an attempt to explain the thing's we don't understand about our universe. Why are we here. What happen's when we die. What is conciousness. Why do I think. Complex questions that religion give's extremly basic, simple answer's for. You calim we're all energy based being's interconnected as such and untill we understand that. not much progress will ever be made. Where's your evidence for this? If anything, it's painfully obvious what we're made up of and what we're not. If you can't see that, then well ...

lol i find that extremely funny considering you fight for science then say no. this isnt religion trying to explain our universe this is science. matter and energy can be intertwined sort to say. we literally are all made up of energy vibrations...this is the current exploration of science in modern times...ever heard of string theory?? you arent looking on the grand scale, just whats right in front of you. the internet on the other hand isnt, for i am tryin to connect with other people i wouldnt be able to on a daily basis, people i hope i cant learn from and they can learn from me. why are you here? there is no reason, your not special, you dont have some set purpose. you dont die, you change form. viruses have both living and non living characteristics so is it alive or dead? simply, living and dead are just as much fake as good and evil. we make it up in our mind the certian things are living. i believe science, in time, will be able to explain why we are able to think. there no problem with wanting something materialistic as long as you know why you want it and that theres something you can learn from it.

We know very little about ourselve's. We're still debating how DNA, the very thing that create's us, came about. We're still trying to understand the complex chemical reaction's within our bodies that produce emotion's. We're still trying to understand why we still have many basic animal instinct's when we're supposedly more highly evolved then other species. There is no spirit. There's nothing to even indicate anything of the sort. There's no magical plane of concious existence. Your brain is nothing more than an extremely advance computer, with an operating system that evolved to such a high order that it lead to intelligence. It won't be long before computer's we use today evolve true intelligence. They then will be asking themselves the same question's perhaps. Will computer's one day start believing they have a soul and if the energy that power's them ceases to do so, they magically be transfered to the great MMORPG in the sky?

your trying to physically understand why you exist, which i always wonder why people put so much emphasis on since it wont change a thing as far as your goals. who you are and why you exist are two totally different things. who you are and what you want is determind by what your thinking, your thought process. DNA wont tell you what you want, just your biological code and why you do some actions. yet you dont need DNA to tell you any of that because when you actually think you already know these things, you just dont have your eyes open, even to yourself.

Produkt: Everything you have stated and tried to convince me of are your beliefs. You don't even accept the possibility that you are wrong.

That is supremely more arrogant than anything I've said, because you are basically claiming that you understand the universe.

It is important to be exposed to beliefs, so that we might learn from them. Even children need to understand what a belief is. Belief, by itself, is not harmful... it is when you come to rely upon it, when you cease seeing it as belief and accept it as a reality, that the harm stems from. Just as you have ceased believing science is just a methodology of belief and have accepted it all as fact.

There is no harm in being exposed to ideas, it allows us to evolve towards TRUTH. and TRUTH is the preferred outcome.

Nothing you have learned means anything to me... and I am not ignorant of science, for I am a student of the world. I can argue science possibly better than you can, yet it does not change that it is merely a belief structure, built upon premises that may prove false.

Or, perhaps an even worse scenario is that at some point all the things Science relies upon to be repeatable suddenly STOP being so. What if that were to happen?

If you do not know who you are, why you are, what you are.... for YOURSELF, outside of science and religion... then why do you even have the right to tell people how the universe functions? Why do you have the right to tell people what the truth is when you could be wrong about EVERYTHING?

I didn't say you were. I said you COULD be. But you will not even accept THIS, which means you are LOST to rationality, drunk on your needed beliefs that the universe is understandable and conquerable due to science.

Truth is, you only want it to be true because it makes you feel good, it makes you feel comfortable that you are "Right" without knowing what "Truth" is.

Grim,

In what manner do you mean, know ourselve's? Physically, psychologicaly, spiritually? Psychologicaly, I could sort of understand what your saying. Spiritually, forget it. There's no such thing as a spirit or a soul. When I speak of physically knowing ourselve's, such as the chemical nature of our emotion's and such, this is how I view life. This is what life is. Complex orginization of chemical interaction's. Doesn't mean we're pointless or unspecial. We don't need a spiritual influence to understand the complexity of it. The psychological aspect, is more akin to philosophical. While philosophy can be a great tool for exercising the brain, it doesn't nessecarily lead to a greater understanding of one's self. Philosophical question's could lead to scientific theories. In the end, the "practice" of science, of testing your theories against reality will ultimatly teach you what is real.

our lack of understanding doesnt change physics but does change how we use it and how effectively we use it. our mind function and the findings of science are connected ina physical sense, but because i understand how i work and why i no longer encounter any social problems, for i know before i even act all the possibilities of my actions. i know these because i know who i am and how i will react. this allows me to make the best possible choice. its not about how our minds will change science, but how our minds will change the way we USE science.

I can understand where your comming from. However, our lack of understanding ourselve's doesn't nesecarily impact how we can use science as a tool to understand the other complexities of the universe. On a psychological level, not many people do understand anything about themselve's, this has no impact upon what they learn about other subject's. As you stated, science is a tool for learning. A hammer is a tool for building. How is it that we need to understand ourselve's in order to use one tool, but not the other? The ability to learn come's naturally. Not just within the human species, but all species, no matter how lowly they might be in our eyes. Everything has the capacity to learn. Most species probably lack the understanding of themselve's, this however doesn't impede their learning. As you stated also, your having less social problem's, this stem's from a broader sense of psychology most people don't posses. You know how you'll react based upon a psychological instinct. But do you know the chemical change's within your brain that lead to that reaction.

why does it make you happy? if you could answer that maybe it would end there, but in truth i doubt you could because your making no real connection with anyone. you merely spark a chemical reaction that causes you to say i like this, but your not thinking or exploring.

In a way, yes I do know. You actually answered it for me. A chemical reaction, and to furthur elaborate, this chemical reaction is brought about by latent animal instinct's from prior evolutionary form's that have changed and mutated over the course of billion's of year's. Evolution is a natural occurance. Slow, yes, unobservable in the blink of an eye. You may not "see" evolution occur on a macro scale, but the gradual evolution over time can be charted back through history, and if given the patience and effort, forward through history.

we should be exploring science, no watchin tv. but before any of us can explore science we must explore our own state of minds and train of thoughts.

There are reason's why not everyone studies science or explore's the psychological level's of the mind or philisophical reason's. It's not a natural instinct to explore the meaning of the universe, or to develop theories of the mind. There's alot man doesn't yet know about our species. How did we come to think the way we do, to be as self aware, to develop technology we take for granted today. Alot of unanswered question's we're working on right now. We're stil however stuck with the basic animal instict's. How is living in peace the ultimate goal? How do you know what the ultimate goal is. Hell, how do you even know there is an ultimate goal. What defined that ultimate goal for you to achieve. There is no ultimate goal. There is no higher purpose. Your nothing more then a complex machine performing complex calculation's. A computer. A biological robot. Born of natural mean's, that ultimatley had no higher purpose, no ultimate goal, and no life of itself.


I have heard of the string theory. I realize we could be made up of vibrating strand's of energy. Those strand's of energy make up the quarks and such, those in turn make up the atom's, those in turn ect. They aren't all interconected on some higher plane of ultimate conciousness. They have no purpose. It has no life. How are we all interconnected by a force that has no life of it's own? Viruses are very primitive orginism's. Possibly one of the first complicate set of chemical reaction's to occur. They don't purposfully, with intent harm you. It's just a chemical interaction within our bodies. The individual cell's that make your body up hold no life by themselve's. They're chemical reactions that require other checmical reaction' to function. Science in a way has already shown how we think. The problem I think, is, why do we think, which is more philosophical then anything. One that doesn't hold any real answer. Why do we do anything? Some of us are having trouble accepting the fact that we're nothing more then a complex machine driven by chemical reaction's. The reason for why we do thing's is from billion's of year's of evolving chemical reaction's.

your trying to physically understand why you exist, which i always wonder why people put so much emphasis on since it wont change a thing as far as your goals. who you are and why you exist are two totally different things. who you are and what you want is determind by what your thinking, your thought process. DNA wont tell you what you want, just your biological code and why you do some actions. yet you dont need DNA to tell you any of that because when you actually think you already know these things, you just dont have your eyes open, even to yourself.

Yes, I am trying to physically understand why I exist. I'm a physical being, so why wouldn't I? Who I am, and why I exist are closely tied together. The physical aspect's of my genetics will determine the initial onset's of my disposition and attitude and instinctual response's. Enviromental/social influence's will determine the rest. All these physical interaction's make you who you are. there's nothing divine or special about it. There's nothing philosophical about it.

Whew.

TheCrystalSword,

Produkt: Everything you have stated and tried to convince me of are your beliefs. You don't even accept the possibility that you are wrong.

I fully accept I could be wrong, but then so would all the people who discovered these thing's and taught us about them. So would all the advancement's we take for granted today. Our use of medicine's to fix hormonal imbalance's that lead to depression would be wrong. The effect of applying an electric current to the pleasure center of the brain leading to a release of chemical that lead to a sense of feeling good, could be wrong. Could be, yes, but are they when they've been widley tested, reproduced, and put into everyday practice? We could be wrong about electricity, let's stick a fork into an outlet to test that. We understand how electricity works, which is how we're able to use it. We understand genetics, which is how we're able to fix hormonal imbalnce's for manic depression patient's. We're starting to understand emotional responses are chemical in nature. But your right, me and thousand's of other's that lead to everything you use in today's world, could be wrong. You run off and tell them that.

nothing you have learned means anything to me

Then nothing tesla has learned mean's anything to you. Nothing the first discover of how to put fire to use mean's anything to you. Nothing the wright brother's learned of flight mean anything to you. Exactly what mean's something to you? Everything I've learned has been discovered by countless other's before I was even born. Before you were even born. As you said, it's healthy to view other belief's, theories, but to what extent? A religous belief is more harmfull in repsect's to gaining any knowledge and understanding of the universe, but good for moral practice's. However, do we need to believe in religion to be moral? Do we need to be subjected to religion to learn what morality is? Science itself isn't a belief structure. It's a tool of the mind. A series of steps used to test our theories. Theories are the belief's, science is the tool to discover if those belief's hold any physical fact and truth. It's because of using science that we've advanced to where we are today. Religion would still have us believe in a flat earth. Religion would have us to blindly have faith in a fanciful god and an eternal afterlife. I understand when I die, that's it. The machine stop's producing energy to function. Am I scared of that? No. It's life.

Or, perhaps an even worse scenario is that at some point all the things Science relies upon to be repeatable suddenly STOP being so. What if that were to happen?

Lol, I'm not sure. Although I've never heard a theory where the law's of physic's could suddenly stop existing or such. However I have heard some pretty convincing theories that the law's of physics could be different then they are here in our part of the universe compared to other part's.

If you do not know who you are, why you are, what you are.... for YOURSELF, outside of science and religion... then why do you even have the right to tell people how the universe functions? Why do you have the right to tell people what the truth is when you could be wrong about EVERYTHING?

I do know who I am. I know why I am, and what I am. I am me, a complex chemical machine brought about by natural processes. I think because of these complex chemical reaction's are somewhat akin to a computer, neuron's fire on and off based upon a series of certain event's that are wieghed and depending upon other complex reaction's they either give me an instictual response, store the information within the brain, or allow me to fire off yet another series of nerve's that control the ability to type what I'm typing. Today we've produced AI that can fool some people. Even I'm amazed at the level of artificial intelligence in today's computer's and every once in while, I interact with some of the program's. Our neuron's are their transistor's and curcuit's. Some day, and some say soon, AI will become self aware. When that happen's, not if, but when, what does that say of human's? Nothing really. Doesn't make us any less then we already are. Doesn't make us anymore special just because we brought about self awareness through technological mean's. Both self aware man and self aware machine's are no better then one or the other. The difference's being, we achieved self awareness through natural chemical reaction's, whereas self aware machine's were built to use electrical current's and other mean's to achieve self awareness.

As I stated earlier, I could be wrong, but then so would the thousand's of other people through out history. Everything We've all learned is thanks to them and thanks to the people living today. So yes, I could be wrong, but with a huge price. So I suppose I'm not so irrational after all? Do I need to believe the universe can be fully understood? No, nor do I believe it ever will be fully understood. Nor do I believe we'll ever learn about everything and know everything there is in the universe. Truth is, I know it's true thanks to thousand's of other's who've proven it to be true and put these truth's into practice and advancment's that you take for granted today. In a way, it does make me feel good that these thing's have been discovered, it mean's we're comming to a wider understanding of ourselve's and our universe.

Lol, I'm not sure. Although I've never heard a theory where the law's of physic's could suddenly stop existing or such. However I have heard some pretty convincing theories that the law's of physics could be different then they are here in our part of the universe compared to other part's.

Speaking as someone familiar with current theories in astronomy and physics, it is quite likely that there ARE no uniform laws of physics, merely localized static fields which function in a predictable manner. Or, at least, OUR field is. What happens if the universe shifts, and we find ourselves suddenly in a field where all of science must be started from scratch? And all because Science think it KNEW how the universe works.

This is a possible outcome, not a ludicrous fantasy.

As for everyone being wrong, THEY ARE. You can never be right, you can only have an idea. Belief makes you THINK you have found the answer, belief makes you THINK the answer is sound... and science is the belief of the repeatable. Just because something occurrs ten billion times in the same fashion does not mean the ten billionth and FIRST time won't be different, and every time thereafter.

People who think they are "RIGHT" or think that all the "Rightness" of science backs them up need to realize that, however sound the theory (And it's important to accept it on the face of a thing), it could be COMPLETELY WRONG.

It doesn't mean throw science out the window, it means realize you don't KNOW anything, you can never say anything for certain.

Originally posted by Produkt
Grim,
In what manner do you mean, know ourselve's? Physically, psychologicaly, spiritually? Psychologicaly, I could sort of understand what your saying. Spiritually, forget it. There's no such thing as a spirit or a soul. When I speak of physically knowing ourselve's, such as the chemical nature of our emotion's and such, this is how I view life. This is what life is. Complex orginization of chemical interaction's. Doesn't mean we're pointless or unspecial. We don't need a spiritual influence to understand the complexity of it. The psychological aspect, is more akin to philosophical. While philosophy can be a great tool for exercising the brain, it doesn't nessecarily lead to a greater understanding of one's self. Philosophical question's could lead to scientific theories. In the end, the "practice" of science, of testing your theories against reality will ultimatly teach you what is real.

physically its obvious how we are connected, mentally its not as easy to see, and spiritually is just faith that it exists and nothing more. we are all made of the same thing, energy. so in that sense we are connected. you have no individuality other then the physical form you take. physically we are connected because there is a physical connection as far as what we are all made of goes. you eat and apple, that apple is now a part of you. when you die maybe in 10 years you are part of some trees, grass, and other plants, or more importantly other people. we never really die, we just transform again and again. what we experience cannot be explained yet, in time it will. physcologically is the most complex of them all though. the connection is that which i cannot fully describe to you, if youve ever truely loved a person with all your heart, i dont mean sexually, but actually loved them your making a connection. the chemical is how you know your making this connection with the other person, its alerting you that your making this type of connection. this connection, comparible to love, is a glimpse of the connection that the entire human race will eventually reach if it doesnt wipe itself out first. this undying respect that words cannot describe.

I can understand where your comming from. However, our lack of understanding ourselve's doesn't nesecarily impact how we can use science as a tool to understand the other complexities of the universe. On a psychological level, not many people do understand anything about themselve's, this has no impact upon what they learn about other subject's. As you stated, science is a tool for learning. A hammer is a tool for building. How is it that we need to understand ourselve's in order to use one tool, but not the other? The ability to learn come's naturally. Not just within the human species, but all species, no matter how lowly they might be in our eyes. Everything has the capacity to learn. Most species probably lack the understanding of themselve's, this however doesn't impede their learning. As you stated also, your having less social problem's, this stem's from a broader sense of psychology most people don't posses. You know how you'll react based upon a psychological instinct. But do you know the chemical change's within your brain that lead to that reaction.

on the contrary, our lack of understanding greatly effects our use of this tool. reason being what i said about the good and bad choice. the good and bad choice is the desired or undesired outcome. because of our lack of understanding we are heading toward a definate undesired choice, which is the total destruction of our race. unless some lost soul wants that then we agree that we dont want the human race wiped out. your right it doesnt have an impact on what they learn, but i never said it did. ive been saying this entire time its how they USE what they learned that is the problem, the ignorance. nuclear energy is a good example because the undesired outweighs the desired outcomes of this energy. yet we continue to use it more and more because our lack of understanding about anything, and we cant understand anything till we know who we are. this is because we cant understand ourselves mentally, and thats square one.
theres no point to build a skyscraper when your foundation is made with some toothpicks. these toothpicks represent our mental understanding of ourselves. the rising floors represents science and all the current advances in such tools. we build off toothpicks so the higher floors are going to topple on us, leaving us at step one all over again, or not even around because the building crushed us.

In a way, yes I do know. You actually answered it for me. A chemical reaction, and to furthur elaborate, this chemical reaction is brought about by latent animal instinct's from prior evolutionary form's that have changed and mutated over the course of billion's of year's. Evolution is a natural occurance. Slow, yes, unobservable in the blink of an eye. You may not "see" evolution occur on a macro scale, but the gradual evolution over time can be charted back through history, and if given the patience and effort, forward through history.

there chemical reactions are response triggers for your mind to whats going on. whats the point of having money and blowing it on jewelry and cars if you never learn anything from it, why would that make you happy and have this response is what i want to know? i dont see any reasonable answer.

There are reason's why not everyone studies science or explore's the psychological level's of the mind or philisophical reason's. It's not a natural instinct to explore the meaning of the universe, or to develop theories of the mind. There's alot man doesn't yet know about our species. How did we come to think the way we do, to be as self aware, to develop technology we take for granted today. Alot of unanswered question's we're working on right now. We're stil however stuck with the basic animal instict's. How is living in peace the ultimate goal? How do you know what the ultimate goal is. Hell, how do you even know there is an ultimate goal. What defined that ultimate goal for you to achieve. There is no ultimate goal. There is no higher purpose. Your nothing more then a complex machine performing complex calculation's. A computer. A biological robot. Born of natural mean's, that ultimatley had no higher purpose, no ultimate goal, and no life of itself.

dont give me that, we are capable of whatever we want so long as we want it enough. peace is the goal because peace is being able to live. if you live in conflict your not really living. i know personally there is no such thing as a progressive life when your constantly in conflict. there is no higher purpose because there is no purpose to begin with. we are here by our own terms, that it. i may be nothing more then that, but i do still experience, and that is enough for me. your purpose is to do whatever pleases you the most. unfortunately most people dont understand what it is that pleases them because they cant see past the lies of materialism and lack of thought.

I have heard of the string theory. I realize we could be made up of vibrating strand's of energy. Those strand's of energy make up the quarks and such, those in turn make up the atom's, those in turn ect. They aren't all interconected on some higher plane of ultimate conciousness. They have no purpose. It has no life. How are we all interconnected by a force that has no life of it's own? Viruses are very primitive orginism's. Possibly one of the first complicate set of chemical reaction's to occur. They don't purposfully, with intent harm you. It's just a chemical interaction within our bodies. The individual cell's that make your body up hold no life by themselve's. They're chemical reactions that require other checmical reaction' to function. Science in a way has already shown how we think. The problem I think, is, why do we think, which is more philosophical then anything. One that doesn't hold any real answer. Why do we do anything? Some of us are having trouble accepting the fact that we're nothing more then a complex machine driven by chemical reaction's. The reason for why we do thing's is from billion's of year's of evolving chemical reaction's.

a connection doesnt have to be made by something living, it had no thought or purpose, it just connected everything because it is the root. it is the source of everything, which means it connected everything together. your not living either, you just deem yourself that because you show certian characteristics you would label as living. nothing has purpose, nothing is determind, its all just here to do whatever it pleases. somethings, less advanced, just dont think so they dont even know what pleases them or even what it is. we can be interconnected by something with no life because life is nothing more then something you have made up. your not one day living and one day die, you simply characterized it as so, and said your living or dead. its the same as good and evil, made up to characterize something. the reason we do things is because we choose to, and we are able to choose to by thought process. at our current stage, these chemical reactions determine what we do. once your thought evolves you can override such chemical reactions, its called total control.

Yes, I am trying to physically understand why I exist. I'm a physical being, so why wouldn't I? Who I am, and why I exist are closely tied together. The physical aspect's of my genetics will determine the initial onset's of my disposition and attitude and instinctual response's. Enviromental/social influence's will determine the rest. All these physical interaction's make you who you are. there's nothing divine or special about it. There's nothing philosophical about it.

your instincts and all you can override once you figure out how. why you exist doesnt change that you are here. tell me, if you were to find out right now all the answers to why you existed and how it happened, how would that change your goals in life? would you figure out your still here to live, which is find your desires and reach a desired outcome, or just simply explode because the mystery of life has been solved and lost meaning to your life? your lookin for something that will not effect your reason for being, when i say reason for being i mean whatever it is you desire. after you find out all these whys and hows whats left for you to do?
at your current level, yes you are determind by your genetics and and surroundings, but heres something for you. remember in bio, all that extra DNA that they have no clue why its there, that its just wasting space? the extra DNA...ever wonder what it is? maybe previous "instinct" genes weve lost use for as we evolved mentally and because more intellegent. we are able to override our instincts, we see glimpses of it daily. DNA just shows you what you born with, you define what you decide you want to become.

Whew.

Lol, if the universe shift's the law's of physics within our little part of the universe, we wouldn't even have a chance to relearn what we know about physic's today. We exist the way we do based upon those laws of physics. Mathmatically speaking, it's been shown that if the law's of physics were slightly off from how thing's are today, life as we know it today wouldn't exist in the form it exist's today. Don't look at me for an answer of why, talk to a physicist.

As for everyone being wrong, THEY ARE. You can never be right, you can only have an idea. Belief makes you THINK you have found the answer

Then, by your own definition, what your saying is wrong. And I thank you for admitting that. Now I understand that you just "believe" everyone is wrong and no one can be right. Now I understand that you don't believe in fact's, be it past event's, such as your birthday last year or be it producing a product or be it evolution occuring. Now I understand your limited mode of thinking. Nothing is true, everything is false, don't believe everything because none of it is true anyways.

People who think they are "RIGHT" or think that all the "Rightness" of science backs them up need to realize that, however sound the theory (And it's important to accept it on the face of a thing), it could be COMPLETELY WRONG.

If none of our theories were ever right, then nothing we have today would exist. It's because we've discovered how electricity works, that we are able to put it to work. We're not wrong about it, for the simple fact that we put it to use! It's not a theory anymore, it's a fact. As are alot of other thing's that have been discovered that lead you to use your computer, in your house, on your chair today. They all started out as theories, idea's, later to be discovered as thing's that are true. Doing such and such in a certain way would allow one to build a chair, or build a computer, show me how in those processes that those processes are not fact's but just theories. Pick any kind of chair, any kind of computer model you'd like. Dissasemble the process and show me it's just a theory and not a proven factual step by step process that lead's to the resulting product. Do this for everything we use today.

I am arguing against the assumption of correctness. I never accept my own views as correct, and neither should you, it's unscientific.

That being said, accepting something on its face has merit. Realizing the potential of it not being true does not instantly mean it is FALSE. But it is an element of truth, realizing the fallibility of ALL THINGS.

As for "DISCOVERING" things such as electricity... the reason why it works is assumed, because the assumption works with everything else. It makes SENSE. That doesn't mean it is the ONLY EXPLANATION that makes sense. If everything had only one Plausible explanation, we would be further along scientifically.

Also, on the subject of alternate physics models... just because our physics states that we had to have THESE SPECIFIC PARAMETERS in order to exist doesn't mean that, if our local physics changed, we'd cease to exist. By the very IDEA of such a local change, physics could change fundamentally and still allow for life as a property of it's new laws... you are relying upon the static physics you have come to understand. What if NOTHING about Physics is correct, it is only correct LOCALLY?

Tomorrow you could wake up and find that will can shape matter, and not even an amazing exertion. There is a book about this, it might've been Niven who wrote it, but I'm not exactly sure... a World where reality is mutable by belief and willpower, and chaos ruled until someone invented the christian God in order to straighten things out.

A good book, just don't recall much about it.

What if in the new physics, particles don't exist? What if in the new physics, we are all two dimensional yet are alive because it's physics dictate we are? You cling too tenaciously to what you think you KNOW that you are ignorant of even what Science POSTULATES and the repurcussions if such theories are true.

Grim,

physically its obvious how we are connected, mentally its not as easy to see, and spiritually is just faith that it exists and nothing more. we are all made of the same thing, energy. so in that sense we are connected. you have no individuality other then the physical form you take. physically we are connected because there is a physical connection as far as what we are all made of goes. you eat and apple, that apple is now a part of you. when you die maybe in 10 years you are part of some trees, grass, and other plants, or more importantly other people. we never really die, we just transform again and again. what we experience cannot be explained yet, in time it will.

Granted all matter is composed of this underlying vibrational form of energy, atoms themselve's are still widely seperated from one another. The only connection shared is the same basic building blocks. If I die, my atomic structure, molecular structure breaks down and is used as an energy source for a plant, I'm not truely connected to that planet. That atome or molecule the plant made use of has no life in itself. I cease to exist when I die. I stop producing/using the energy needed to continue to function. My part's break down naturally over time. So yes, we do really die. The sense of us ceases to exist, that chemical/electro-chemical process ceases to function. The only thing that is transfered is the now inert molecule's and atom's.

physcologically is the most complex of them all though. the connection is that which i cannot fully describe to you, if youve ever truely loved a person with all your heart, i dont mean sexually, but actually loved them your making a connection. the chemical is how you know your making this connection with the other person, its alerting you that your making this type of connection. this connection, comparible to love, is a glimpse of the connection that the entire human race will eventually reach if it doesnt wipe itself out first. this undying respect that words cannot describe.

At it's current state of evolution, the human species will never live in a perfect world of love and peace and wholesome goodness. We are still driven by our animal instict's. Until something come's along, turning off those gene's that produce these instinct's, nothing will change. Love is an emotional response, yes, one possibly evolved from a mating response that we still possess. Love could be taken to be many different factor's of emotional/intictual responses/chemical reactions. I'm no knocking the idea of love, I still feel the emotion, but I won't kid myself.

on the contrary, our lack of understanding greatly effects our use of this tool. reason being what i said about the good and bad choice. the good and bad choice is the desired or undesired outcome. because of our lack of understanding we are heading toward a definate undesired choice, which is the total destruction of our race. unless some lost soul wants that then we agree that we dont want the human race wiped out. your right it doesnt have an impact on what they learn, but i never said it did. ive been saying this entire time its how they USE what they learned that is the problem, the ignorance. nuclear energy is a good example because the undesired outweighs the desired outcomes of this energy. yet we continue to use it more and more because our lack of understanding about anything, and we cant understand anything till we know who we are. this is because we cant understand ourselves mentally, and thats square one.

Quite wrong, we do understand the negative impact's of nuclear energy, which is why we've developed and continually develope protective measure's against's those negative impacts. This isn't due to a lack nor full understanding of ourselve's, this is due to a full understanding of the process of nuclear energy. it's also thanks to the understanding of the destructive qualities of nuclear energy that we developed the nuclear bomb, again, not because we understood or failed to understand ourselve's.

there chemical reactions are response triggers for your mind to whats going on. whats the point of having money and blowing it on jewelry and cars if you never learn anything from it, why would that make you happy and have this response is what i want to know? i dont see any reasonable answer.

While I can't fully answer that question of why money would make us happy, I could hazzard a very educated guess. You can train a dog to salivate at the sound of a bell, it's a reward system of sort's. He hear's the bell and learn's it mean's food. Over time, take away the food, the dog will still salivate. Why? Because instinct tell's the dog bell equals food and thus salivate's in resonse to that. Money didn't alway's exist, before money we traded and bartered, this system, over time evolved into money. Gold and silver, shiny. Many animal's LOVE shiny. Human's LOVE shiny. This was our favorite, and even today, still favorite shiny. Why do we and animal's like shiny? I don't know, but shiny is the true god! Anyway's, back on topic... Money is that same reward system. Money equals goods and services that were back in ancient time's bartered for. We're still feeling that instinct or act of bartering when we exchange money. Just as if you had more to barter with, you got more in return for what you wanted/needed. Same with money of today, the more you have the more you get. Personally I also don't see a reason for money, or even bartering. There's enough space and resources for todays population to live equally, IF we applied ourselve's to achieve that goal, but other instincts come into play destroying the chance's for that happening.

dont give me that, we are capable of whatever we want so long as we want it enough. peace is the goal because peace is being able to live. if you live in conflict your not really living. i know personally there is no such thing as a progressive life when your constantly in conflict. there is no higher purpose because there is no purpose to begin with. we are here by our own terms, that it. i may be nothing more then that, but i do still experience, and that is enough for me. your purpose is to do whatever pleases you the most. unfortunately most people dont understand what it is that pleases them because they cant see past the lies of materialism and lack of thought.

Peace is the goal because it is being able to live. You go tell a lion that or a shark. There are no actual goal's to life beyond reproducing and surviving. The reason we live in a world of conflict is thanks to our natural instict's. We're still territorial creature's. There's no shame in that. We have materialism because we are material being's. We cloth ourselve's for very good reason's. We house ourselve's for very good reason's. We procure territory, etc. We are materialistic by our very nature.

a connection doesnt have to be made by something living, it had no thought or purpose, it just connected everything because it is the root. it is the source of everything, which means it connected everything together. your not living either, you just deem yourself that because you show certian characteristics you would label as living. nothing has purpose, nothing is determind, its all just here to do whatever it pleases. somethings, less advanced, just dont think so they dont even know what pleases them or even what it is. we can be interconnected by something with no life because life is nothing more then something you have made up. your not one day living and one day die, you simply characterized it as so, and said your living or dead. its the same as good and evil, made up to characterize something. the reason we do things is because we choose to, and we are able to choose to by thought process. at our current stage, these chemical reactions determine what we do. once your thought evolves you can override such chemical reactions, its called total control.

The reason we say we're living is due to our self awareness. We are a set of self aware complex chemical reactions capable of reproducing those genetic traits that create more of the same series of complex chemical reactions. A rock, by our definition isn't living because it doesn't do the same. A rock isn't self aware that it is a rock. We on the other hand are self aware that we are self aware. When technology permit's AI to advance to self awareness and allows it to produce more of it's kind, even without producing more of it's kind, I will fully accept that set of complex programming intruction's as being alive. Wholly different from our chemical/electro-chemical computer's we call a brain, but still alive.

your instincts and all you can override once you figure out how. why you exist doesnt change that you are here. tell me, if you were to find out right now all the answers to why you existed and how it happened, how would that change your goals in life? would you figure out your still here to live, which is find your desires and reach a desired outcome, or just simply explode because the mystery of life has been solved and lost meaning to your life? your lookin for something that will not effect your reason for being, when i say reason for being i mean whatever it is you desire. after you find out all these whys and hows whats left for you to do?

Can you overide any of your insticts? Which one's are you able to overide. There's a certain level of control we have over some of the basic instict's thanks to our self awareness, but despite all that, strong emotion's will make thing's a whole lot more difficult as for being able to overide your instinct's.

If I knew how life arose for a fact, what processes were involved, it still wouldn't change my outlook of life. It wouldn't change any of my goal's. My natural goal's aren't to do as I desire. By that definition who are we to condemn someone for having the desire and acting upon it to rape someone. There is nothing that will effect my reason for being. I'm fully aware and capable of understanding how it is that we're here. I'm not scared of that fact. I don't quiver in fear and despair just because I learned we're nothing more then a complex chemical machine. If I were able to learn all the why's and how's, I would simply continue to do what it is I'm doing right now, discussing them, procreating, eating, taking breaks to pee and crap. Etc. Nothing would change who I am or "why" I am. As I've said numerous time's, life isn't a divine occurance, there is now WHY, just the HOW. How did the natural process occur that lead to life. There's no reason why it happened, why would imply an unatural reason or a planned reason. All it is, is HOW. How did those first molecular protiens form together to produce what we define as life.

Crystal,

Also, on the subject of alternate physics models... just because our physics states that we had to have THESE SPECIFIC PARAMETERS in order to exist doesn't mean that, if our local physics changed, we'd cease to exist. By the very IDEA of such a local change, physics could change fundamentally and still allow for life as a property of it's new laws... you are relying upon the static physics you have come to understand. What if NOTHING about Physics is correct, it is only correct LOCALLY?

Correct, it is only correct locally, or could be just locally. If that locally correct physical model shifted slightly, life as we know it will not exist in the form it exist's. I'm sorry if it's hard to swallow, but I didn't write the laws of physics. They just are. Let's say, locally speaking, physics change's all of a sudden ten minute's from now. this change, let's say bring's forth a strong gravitational field in our locality. Our life, on this planet would not be able to exist in a stronger gravitational field. If you believe this is false, I'd really like to see you build a house on jupiter. And as I stated, there is a theory floating around out there that physics in our universe might be true only locally. It could be drasticly different in other part's and venturing out into those part's could prove extremly dangerous for us. Our locally physic based life forms depend on those physics being just what they are today. You can't change that just with a wave of your hand saying but what if.

What if in the new physics, particles don't exist? What if in the new physics, we are all two dimensional yet are alive because it's physics dictate we are? You cling too tenaciously to what you think you KNOW that you are ignorant of even what Science POSTULATES and the repurcussions if such theories are true.

If the new physics don't permit particles to exist, then we to will cease to exist. What are you not understanding here? We are made up of particles. This is a proven fact. Ack... I said the F word, sorry. Let me correct myself, we only believe we're made of particles.

Tomorrow you could wake up and find that will can shape matter, and not even an amazing exertion. There is a book about this, it might've been Niven who wrote it, but I'm not exactly sure... a World where reality is mutable by belief and willpower, and chaos ruled until someone invented the christian God in order to straighten things out.

That would be cool huh? That's an amazing aspect of man. Creativity. Unfortunatly, the current local laws of physics don't allow something like this to occur naturally. Fiction is fiction is fiction. Its really pathetic when someone resort's to fantasy in an attempt to prove something. What is it exactly here that your trying to show me from a work of fiction? That magic exist's? That we can create thing's with our mind's? Sure, it would be cool if physics allowed for all that, but bringing up a work of fiction isn't going to change the laws of physics. Again I refer you to the simple wave of your hand and what if scenario.