God is pro death penalty

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
If he knows all, he can\'t say \"sorry bout that, my mistake, this is the way it SHOULD be\"

Maybe I missed something, but I can\'t recall that bible verse. Here is a really simple explanation of why there is no need for any such waffling, cuz as you said, if he is all-knowing, he is highly unlikely to change his mind.
Parents will better grasp this concept. Do 5 year olds and 15 year olds have to obey the same rules?

the growth of an individual can't be likened to the growth of society when regarding the death penalty. One cannot learn if they are dead. Further, what lessons will make them better themselves if they are burning in hell for eternity.

Besides, we haven't really grown that much in the past few millenia. Technologically yes, we have grown, but as a loving caring society, not much. I'm not one to speak of human nature because I believe that we are capable of overcoming nature with respect to our own minds. So all the more reason to equate modern society to the barbarous times when God said it was okay to kill.

This is just a means for man to change God's mind and say it's his devine prerogative,

God didn't change his mind...the Old Testiment is before the blood. Before Jesus gave his life for our sins there was the law given to Moses. The rules of the law--which were laid out in Exodus--were removed by the blood of Christ, or so says Saul/Paul. This is why Christians can eat pork and shrimp if we "bless it" (see Ex. 11).

Though, it gets kinda sticky here, because Jesus said he didn't come to remove the law, most modern day Christians believe that the law is over because we are covered by the blood, and all it takes is the sinners prayer and faith (see John 3:16) to be born again.

The barbarity of our present times is, imo, equal to that of any bible story. Just look at a list of atrocities being committed now. In most ways I agree with your views, but I feel that religion is not necessarily designed to be used the way that many do. It is a great tool for the enterprising sociopath. I do not know why this apparent contradiction exists in the bible, but I see the possibility that it can be resolved rationally. The OT could be referring to governance of the community as a whole while the NT verse could be referring to personal relationships.

Originally posted by daedalas

Exodus 21:12
He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.

I dont know how you would interpret this but to me it looks like god is for the death penalty.

Well, if it looks like God supports the death penalty...look again.

Ok, the whole idea is ludicrous to me-that people think God supports the death penalty, and try to twist the meaning of scripture, but for fun (and due to boredom) I'll join in and put in my 2 cents

so...lets start with the quoted scripture and what each piece means:

he that smiteth a man = (He that assaults a man)

so that he die = (to the point it kills him)

shall surely be put to death= ? this is where the question seems to be

aha.. so then this is where you somehow think God is then saying

"SHOULD BE KILLED BY OTHER MEN"

or even "SHOULD BE KILLED IN THE NAME OF GOD" or something?

WTeverlovinF? Where do you get that?

First off, besides the obvious "thou shalt not kill" applying... and the whole Christian philosophy of turning the other cheek taught by Jesus ( aka God's only begottten son)

there is the fact that you are possibly misinterpreting what was meant by "death" and definately what is mean by "shall surely be put" there...

first he didn't say shall surely be put there by __________(anyone) or how, as a direction or an exhortation-so that right there should put it to rest that it is not a license to kill.

But you must go deeper, and understand he also could mean "death" as spiritually, the very literal opposite meaning of life spiritually...which does not have to do with the breath of the mortal body, but the spirit in the presence of God

life is in the presence of God
death is without the presence of God

This is spiritual, but also within Chrisitanity immortally existential

for we die in the body, but because of the death and ressurrection of Jesus according to Christianty, we are ALL (sinners and saints alike) reunited to our bodies becming immortal...

and then we either have "eternal life" through salvation and the atoning sacrifice for our sins through Jesus Christ, which is different from mere immorality because it speaks to living immortally within the presence of God

or...we are enter into eternal damnation...still as immortals- body and soul reunited-but spiritually "dead" outside the presence of God...put outside of the presence of God...by God...put to death in others words...by God...

"shall surely be put to death" = (shall surely be cast out of the presence of God, by God to live eternally damned, which is spiritual death)

Those who kill, comit murder..."shall surely be put to death" Makes sense to me, but I'll leave that to God.

I think thats no new concept to believe if you kill, you will, by God, when judged according your heinous crime, be cast off from the presence of God, and effectively be put to death-to spend imortality in eternal damnation or "Hell" or whatever way you look at it.

So...yes, those who kill, shall be put to death...but it isn't by man...shouldn't be by man, and that scripture in no way is saying, demanding, excusing, let alone supporting a mortal code for a mortal death penalty

I mean c'mon!

life is in the presence of God
death is without the presence of God

Then how can a one man smiteth another so that he would die? I always thought that the relationship between man and God was a point A to point B thing. One man can't influence Gods view of another in that way.

However, if it is taken to mean that he who casts mans love away from God, shall have Gods love taken from him, that is another story.

well let me chime in by asking........
what did god do to kaine when he killed able?

And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

Instead of the death penalty, god is in favor of keeping someone alive as long as possible to extend their suffering.

Originally posted by Rasobasi420

life is in the presence of God
death is without the presence of God

Then how can a one man smiteth another so that he would die? I always thought that the relationship between man and God was a point A to point B thing. One man can't influence Gods view of another in that way.

I am not even sure what you're question is.

No one is influencing God's view...God says do not kill mortally, and those who do not obey such commandments will face consequences...such as spiritual death-seperation from God...you misunderstand me if you think I implied someone influences God view

Are you perhaps confusing the smiting of mortal life, with the consequence of the one who did the killing having enternal life taken away- and thus suffering spiritual death? Thus he is then put to death as the scripture was saying

The person who is smitten-killed- is not then separated from God by the act-his death is a temporal mortal death of the body, just seperating him from living mortal life-not from Gods presence eternally

The one who did the killing...will surely be put to death spiritually-He will be put to death in immortality when judged and cast off from the presence of God

My point was simply that using your train of thought death means two things in one line. You imply that to die means both physical death and the absence of God. That wold be a bit confusing for the topic. I only propose that If death means the absence of God, then
"He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death. "
must mean
"He that smiteth a man, so that he (is in the absence of God), shall be surely put to (the absence of God). "

which could mean
"He who turns a man's view away from God will have Gods view turned away from him"

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
My point was simply that using your train of thought death means two things in one line. You imply that to die means both physical death and the absence of God.

I do NOT imply that death means two things

I STATE as a FACT it does.

I am not implying however that "death" means both physical death AND the absence of God (spiritual death) for EVERYONE, but that it can mean one thing for one person (physical death) and then one thing for another ( spiritual death)

...yes all the while in the same line-meaning different things for each person-and this is why people get confused thinking it means "a life for a life" in the physical sense only- when it doesn't! Very pertinent point for the topic at hand I would thinnk!

THAT is my point exactly-it means two different things in that line!

words OFTEN have two seperate meanings, especially in ancient languages, and in the interpretation of that line given here for such purpose I think that is the most important thing to point out...that the word "death" means TWO different things, especially and specifically shown in that line!!!!

Also understand "death" having two meanings, does not mean BOTH of those meanings for each person.

EVERYONE who dies mortally...be of disease, old age, or murder...dies a PHYSICAL DEATH of the body

those who are judged of sins with eternal consequences will then also suffer SPIRITUAL DEATH-AKA seperation from God-when they are then case out of His presence.

So, understand to die mortally, physically... is NOT to be cut off from the presence of God, or equal to suffering death spiritually

so one person in that line is dying physically (murdered) and the other is going to be put to death spiritually-cast off from the presence of God when he dies

it's quite simple to me




[edit on 2-2-2006 by think2much]

While it is said in the Bible to turn the other cheek, I think that there needs to be reasonable options. We cannot allow rapists and killers around our children and our loved ones.

To be on the safe side of things, incarceration seems to be the most logical conclusion.

The Bible was indeed written by men inspired and with some bias of that current time. But when it comes to murder....Then why not exile. Send murderers and killers and rapists to an island where they live.

Perhaps they will learn there, and when murder and rape and violations against people rights go to zero, then they can come off the island.

It would be an interesting experiment..to say the least.

Peace

Have you ever been to Australia?

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
Have you ever been to Australia?

BAHAHAHAAA! Omg I was going to write that, and then though :shk: no.....

I do have Austrailian family and friends afterall

so Rasobasi you get where I'm coming from now concerning the two different meanings of death both being spoken of in that passage now?

[edit on 3-2-2006 by think2much]

Originally posted by daedalas

Exodus 21:12
He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.

I dont know how you would interpret this but to me it looks like god is for the death penalty.

Actually I get just the opposite interpretation as you do.

It says that if you put someone to death, then you too will die.

Also - MEN wrote the bible... God inspired it but MEN
and all their failings filtered it and then wrote it down.

Let's face it, there are too many contradictions in the bible to count. The Cain and Abel incident, and that Exodus quote make that very clear. The point is, don't put all of your faith in anything other than that nothing is certain.

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
Let's face it, there are too many contradictions in the bible to count. The Cain and Abel incident, and that Exodus quote make that very clear. The point is, don't put all of your faith in anything other than that nothing is certain.

That is the point of what? Not this thread, not that passage, so just the point of your opinion you inteded to express via this thread?

Well, let's face it, the point of the thread was does a scripture in teh Bible actually elude to God supporting the death penalty...the point is not contradictions. If it were, niether Cain and Able nor that passage in Exodus would be examples of contradicitons anyway, and if so used, they'd be weak examples.

Also, you error, as there are are things that are certain-I don't think there is much to contradict most laws of physics...

but that doesn't require faith, right?

Well, if you could put your faith in something that was "certain" by definition of being scientifically proven, well then it would cease to be faith, wouldn't it?

So, I understand you to be saying " have faith in nothing." OK Whatever

But since none of that is on topic, nor proved by the topic, I stand behind the point I originally made and have tried to clarify for you-that one word can have two meanings-even using each differeing meaning within it's own context- in one sentance...and it doesn't mean it contradicts one or the other... or anything.

i think its really man's quote

He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death

if killing wasn't such a 'sin' we'd kill each other to death

it is probably a phrase written in the bible to ensure the sin of murder isn't forgotten

Originally posted by spearhead
if killing wasn't such a 'sin' we'd kill each other to death

OMGosh that is so funny to me.

I don't even have a signature and quote but if I ever do, I may ask to use that.

Truly, that is funny to me...but admittedly I am up late.

take my words as you would jesus'
rubbish them, slander them or treat them as gold