infiltration

Okay, I've been reading the boards for a while here, but this is my first post, so you can analyze, dissect, and dismiss any of this as you want.

But lets say someone joins a freemason lodge for the purpose of learning "The Truth" and finds nothing. Finds it to be just as ordinary as it comes. And just to really learn all the secrets, they join the york rite, and the scottish rite, and find out not a thing is really "evil" and it really is just as other people have said it was.

And so they become masters of the lodge, to really find out "what happens behind closed doors" and they find out nothing really ominous happens at all.

And it's the same thing for skull and bones, builderburgs, area 51, all of that. They all turn out to be Old Boys clubs where a lot of boring talking goes on, but really nothing "cool" or "secrative" like "Todays agenda, how we make Steve Guttenburg a star" or "okay boys, today in dreamland, we're following our directions to make a SR-71 spy plane to take over the commies! Now get to work."

I mean seriously, I really doubt any of the things that go on in the "secret societys" is anything cool at all. Nothing like "The Skulls" or "National Treasure" or "James Bond" or anything like that.

I think it's more like Buffalo Bill's Wild West Show. The Point being, you really gain the wrong perception of the whole concept.

Okay, in Buffalo Bill's Wild West Show, the "wild" west looked really exciting. Oooh! Indians! Ahh! Firefights! Wow! Buffalo! But if you really lived out there, for the most part, not a damn thing happened. Most of it was boring stuff, and every once in a blue moon you would have something "interesting" go on.

And I think the same thing happens in the mindset of these conspiracy boards. A lot of people think something evil and ominous is going on behind closed doors, and really? It's nothing more abnormal than what happens behind closed doors at your own thanksgiving.

Lots of friendly people get together, have a good meal, talk about the game, and maybe if your lucky something interesting will happen, but mainly, nothing does.

Anyway, I'm just tossing that out there, it might've been said before or not, the boards are massive, and I can't really read every post out there.

I think that is pretty much what the masons who post here have been saving is the case. With the exception that the "nothing" would better be expressed as "nothing except what has been stated". Also excepting that the interesting things that do come up (most meeting in fact) are only intresting to men who enjoy bieng masons.

[edit on 11-1-2006 by Masonic Student]

I suggest studying history some. If you look much at all at how and what groups have been "behind" the major political movements throughout history, your opinion would probably change. Pay particular attention to the rise and fall of the Roman Empire and the formation of the United States. I think it would surprise you to know just what does go on "behind closed doors".

[

And it's the same thing for skull and bones, builderburgs, area 51, all of that. They all turn out to be Old Boys clubs where a lot of boring talking goes on, but really nothing "cool" or "secrative" like "Todays agenda, how we make Steve Guttenburg a star"

Actually, that was yesterday's agenda. Today's is keeping the Martians under wraps.

Who controls the British crown?
Who keeps the metric system down?
We do! We do!

Who keeps Atlantis off the maps?
Who keeps the Martians under wraps?
We do! We do!

Who holds back the electric car?
Who makes Steve Guttenburg a star?
We do! We do!

Who robs cave fish of their sight?
Who rigs every Oscar night?
We do! We do!

www.netowne.com...

Edit: Link added.

[edit on 12-1-2006 by intrepid]

Originally posted by TheBorg
I suggest studying history some. If you look much at all at how and what groups have been "behind" the major political movements throughout history, your opinion would probably change. Pay particular attention to the rise and fall of the Roman Empire and the formation of the United States. I think it would surprise you to know just what does go on "behind closed doors".

Well come now, the Rise and fall of the Roman Empire is quite a bit of time right there. What specific points are you refering to? And the Formation of the United States? What exactly are you implying there? There's hundreds of years that led up to the moments where a group of people decided that they did not want to be oppressed any more. As I know it, the whole basis of coming to America was to be free, and to escape tyrany, not to become some sort of secret "elite" that knew the "secrets" of what really went on.

Originally posted by TheBorg
I suggest studying history some. If you look much at all at how and what groups have been "behind" the major political movements throughout history, your opinion would probably change. Pay particular attention to the rise and fall of the Roman Empire and the formation of the United States. I think it would surprise you to know just what does go on "behind closed doors".

Did you take specific lessons in being cryptically sage-like, or is it something of a hobby?

Some groups have had an influence though. Take, for example, masonry in Sierra Leon. Sierra Leon was a british colony in africa. A lot of slaves were brought in there, or at least freedmen. The long and the short of it was that, when colonialism ended and the british 'left', there was a population of non-native blacks clustered in the capital city and its environs, and native blacks in the rest of the country. The non-natives were a minority, but were 'thoroughly british', genteel, well educated, politic, and, largely, masons. They were, infact, extremely enthusiastic masons (and I think it was in the york rite in particular that there was the most interest, for historical reasons apparently). Becuase they were well educated and the like, they ended up being the ones that made up most of the civil service within the government. The fraternity helped keep their seperate identity from the natives, and functioned to network the members of this cultural-ethnic group. It was influential on who got the better government positions.
Thats usually how these groups function, when they have any influence.
Consider also that the traveling lodges of masonry within the British Empire also functioned to 'bring a little bit of england' to the far flung reaches of the empire, and thus make imperial service more bearable for troops and government officials, in that way facilitating empire.
Also, consider, for a non-masonic example, the Bohemian Club. The group his in the US and draws as its members captains of industry and social elites, and serves to fortify the social bonds between these people. I don't think that actual governmental policy is put forward by this club as a club, but certainly industrial policy is widely discussed by its members at its meetings and put into action.

As to how sinister that all is, thats a different story, and as to how pervasive it is, well, I think that a local Chamber of Commerce has more influence on local politics and economies than the town Masonic Lodge or Country Club.
And that sort of stuff really unfairly ignores the benefits of these societies, the ones that have charitable interests anyway. It almost doesn't matter how much of a "negative" effect the Shriners have because of this 'networking' process (who's to say its negative in the first place anyways), because their hospitals and charities far outweigh any of that.

Originally posted by TheBorg
I suggest studying history some. If you look much at all at how and what groups have been "behind" the major political movements throughout history, your opinion would probably change. Pay particular attention to the rise and fall of the Roman Empire

The only conspiracy at the start of the empire was that of Cassius and Brutus.

Caesar, Pompey, and Crassus made an agreement, and were elitists, but their Triumvirate wasn't a secret society.


As for the formation of the US, the Sons of Liberty and the Freemasons were critical. This was a good thing. If masonic ideals of the enlightment and rational era hadn't been around, the US might just've become another set of petty principalities, with perhaps a Bishop ruling Rhode Island, Dutch Ethnic councils struggling against New York Oligarchs, and Prince Washington of Virginia allways threatening military action.

Heck, when I think about guys like Aaron Burr and his attempt to create his own little kingdom beyond the appalachians, who knows what a guy like that woudl've done if there weren't lodges throughout the US talkign about Liberty, Equality, Fraternity, etc.

Nygdan,

I never said that any of this was a bad thing. If it was taken that way, I apologize. I was only trying to point Mirthful1 in a direction that might lead him/her to some insights. The information is actually public knowledge, but you just have to take the long hours to sift through it. I've only done a tiny bit, as in less than 20 hrs of work on it, and have found that things are a lot deeper than they outwardly seem.

Lets take your example of the Chamber of Commerce having more power than the local Masonic Lodge. Now I know the Masons get picked on a lot, and that's not fair I'm sure because there's a lot of other unknown secret societies out there that are probably more mixed up in things than I can possibly understand. But anyway, back to the point. I bet that if you took a look at those very members of the Chamber of Commerce, they all belong, in one way or another, to some secret society. And if they are not themselves members, then I suggest that they are under someone that is. I just hope that the consensus on the issues that they discuss are in favor of the public, rather than in favor of themselves.


Mirthful1,

In response to your post, I was referring in particular to the fall of Rome, how it happened politically, and what happened to it after it fell. As for what I'm implying; I imply a lot in my posts that I don't bother supporting with evidence because they are just my theories. When I find the time, I will post my theories in depth. Suffice it to say that I believe that the Roman empire never fell, in my opinion, it just went underground. As a result, they maneuvered their way over to England, and managed to put themselves into positions of power such that they had a huge economic base.

To further ensure that nothing like the 'fall' would ever happen again, they moved to get a colony started away from the rest of the civilized world. This is where the US comes in. They send delegates over here to form a new colony, one that will serve them implicity. To shorten this story up a bit, they formed the US, and we became the powerful 'Empire' that we are now.

To end, I would like to ask you to just look around at polictics in general. See how it runs, and compare that with the way that we know Rome ran. We not only modelled ourselves after Rome, we rebuilt her.

Originally posted by Roark

Did you take specific lessons in being cryptically sage-like, or is it something of a hobby?

While I take that as a great compliment, I must say that is has become a rather intense hobby of mine. I find it very encouraging to listen to these kinds of posts, and I feel it necessary to opine as I see fit. I like watching people debate, as it gives me a sense of accomplishment. If I can make you question, if only just for a second, the nature of your opinions, then I feel that I've done my job.

And, to be totally honest, I don't find myself at all sage-like. I see myself as a simple man with simple ideals, and an as close to objective mind as one can have while still maintaining humanity. I look forward to all of your posts, and in advance, I'm sorry for this posts' length, but there was a LOT of ground to cover here.


--TheBorg

Edit: Content needed adjusted, as did clarity.

[edit on 13-1-2006 by TheBorg]

Originally posted by TheBorg
I never said that any of this was a bad thing.

Gotchya, my mistake. Apologies. These kind of things certainly can have ill effects though.

I bet that if you took a look at those very members of the Chamber of Commerce, they all belong, in one way or another, to some secret society.

I'd bet that most of them belong to masonry if anything too. I get the impression that masons, rotary councils, and chambers of commerce have a great confluence of members.

TheBorg

I’m not sure, to me, that sounds like a LOT of work to pull off effectively. I mean, can you imagine how PERFECT everything must fall into place for over 2000 Years of ruling? I mean, EVERYTHING. “They” would have to anticipate who would be a perfect pawn, who would be a suitable Leader, and ensure that everything went exactly correct and according to plan.

I mean, think about your own day. You set out goals to get stuff done, but occasionally, you don’t get everything to follow through. Even if you work on a team, even a small team, things happen that you don’t expect will happen.

A small piece of wire will pop your tire causing you to be late for work. Or they’re out of marinara sauce, so you can’t make that Italian meal to impress your date for tonight, So you’ve got to make something else.

Or maybe your pen runs out of ink in class so you can’t finish writing your notes, and you end up with a C instead of an A, which influences the teacher to give you mediocre grades, which knocks down your GPA, which leads to this, which leads to that, and so on.

John Lennon had a great quote: “Life is what happens when you’re busy making other plans”. And that applied to him, as it applies to everyone else. You can plan and scheme along with the best of them, Be a prodigy of Machiavelli, as quick in thought and planning Sun Tzu, but things aren’t always going to go as planned.

And can you imagine having all these different cultures clash trying to figure out a direction to head in? I mean, the United Nations right now doesn’t work out in the most effective manor, Can you think of a United Nations trying to get together way back when? Heck, if they can all agree on a pizza with more than one topping for Lunch it's called a success.

If you look at politics in general, it reminds me of a train stuck in the mud. Slow to go anywhere, but occasionally it will move an inch. The Government today seems VASTLY different than the one way back when. For starters, it’s HUGE. Why not keep it small? There’s less things that can go wrong in something small and simple then something huge and complex.

Probably gonna get in trouble here, but ... I am constantly amazed at people who think that the world has to be run on the backs of various secret societies.

They have had numerous opportunities to take over the world, and haven't... They have had numerous opportunities to take over the world, and haven't...

I have to wonder why it would be so unthinkable that normal folks go through life running their lives, being successful or being really messed up without the outside influence of the Masons, or Elks, or Rotary or who ever.

Sure... Lots of people who have gotten themselves into organizations, Mason, Elks, Rotary, Mafia, etc, all want to be in control of something, but I suspect that like Gotti, they often make mistakes and don't quite get it.

Mirthful1,

I think you misunderstood what it was that I was getting at. My point is that it's not a simple matter of controlling people's actions. People can act as they like, and those in power don't care too much one way or the other, so long as it doesn't endanger them or their plans. It's more like allowing the people to have some small freedoms, and in exchange giving away everything that they thought they had. When something does jeapordize their plans, those in power have ways to make sure that that doesn't happen.

No, not everything goes as planned, and I'm quite sure that even the world leaders have had their little problems in the past. What I'm getting at is that they gave the US people an ideal of freedom, when in fact all we got was a desire to have what others have, a.k.a Capitalism. Has it ever bothered you that it's incredibly hard to live in this country? If so, then you can imagine the next question: Why? After thinking about it long and hard, and tracking the history of corporations over the past 50 years or more, you find that it's been geared to be the way that it is now. Look at the Middle Ages for a reference of what I speak of. It's almost the same way in some places in America. We, the people, have been relegated to unwitting peasants in a worldwide corporation. And the worst part is, the majority don't care. They are just happy to live another day, barely subsisting on what little bit they get.

sigung86,

Hi. I'm gathering that you haven't done any studies into the way the nation works, and what the effects of money are on the political happenings of any country in general.

What makes you think that any secret group hasn't already taken over? If you look at any major position of political power, you'll find members of one or more of these groups, and many more I'm sure. Do you seriously expect me, or anyone for that matter, to believe that these groups have no say in what goes on? The only reason these clichs form is to carry a specific agenda to it's conclusion. Once that's done, then the objective becomes reenforcing it.

Just so you know, I don't KNOW for sure that anything that I say is 100% fact. I only toss these out as my own musings, based on the overwhelming evidence that I have to support me. The funniest part is that all that I use to support me is in public records, right under our noses, and yet no one esle sees it. I guess the old adage is true after all; the best place to hide something is in plain sight.

Originally posted by TheBorg

What I'm getting at is that they gave the US people an ideal of freedom, when in fact all we got was a desire to have what others have, a.k.a Capitalism. Has it ever bothered you that it's incredibly hard to live in this country?

How do you mean? For me, personally, it's pretty easy to live in this country, being born in this country, (Meaning America) and I've explored half the states quite easily in my travels, I can apreciate how beautiful it is, and the people are quite friendly for the most part, although everyone has their moments.

I've never had a problem finding a job. It might not be a well-paying job, in my field of expertise, or on the level that I'm capible of fully preforming at, but the fact is, if you're willing to work, you'll find it. Be it McDumpsters, or waiting tables. If you need money to pay your bills, it's to be found in America.

In fact, it's abundant enough that some people just give it away, via grants, or scholarships, or even to bums panhandling. That's one of the many wonderful things about this country.

Originally posted by TheBorg

We, the people, have been relegated to unwitting peasants in a worldwide corporation. And the worst part is, the majority don't care. They are just happy to live another day, barely subsisting on what little bit they get.

I'll grant you that there's a lot more corporate welfare then some people are comfortable with, and a lot of people have been screwed over by corporations, this is true. But just because there are people out there that want to be greedy, dosn't necessarily mean that we all feed at the teat of some worldwide corporation.

I think that your above senario more accurately describes Communism. Not capitalism. You can see coruption far more easily with the leaders in soviet Russia. Does it happen in America? Sure. But you're more likely to be a college drop-out and make it big with your idea in America rather than China or Russia.

As for people being happy to live another day, barely subsisting on what little bit they get. I belive that's called apathy. Those people need to lay off the television and video games, and maybe pick up a book by Tony Robbins or something. They can change, but _they_ need to make that choice.

I'm guilty of it too, I could probably make more money if I chose to, by working longer hours, or getting a better job in construction or something, but personally, I'd rather spend time with my family, or enjoy the company of friends and pass the wine and have fun. You know, be Mirthful!



[edit on 14-1-2006 by Mirthful1]

Well said Mirthful1. I find what you say to be quite true for the most part. However, I'm glad that you mentioned Communism, because as it happens, the basic belief of everyone having the essentials is a great idea. That does not mean that I condone Communism, because I don't. I only like one of it's main premises. There should be no need, in this country we live in, for any human being to be without the three basic things. Why are there panhandlers around? I'm sure it's not because they want to be out there begging for money. It's probably because they have no other way to get money.

It's funny to me how someone can lose a job, and end up homeless so quickly, and then because they can't get a bath, they can't be presentable for an interview with a potential employer. It's interesting to me how a country that's supposedly so interested in helping others is so unwilling to help their own when they need it. These people begging for money don't need money, they need food and a place to sleep. Now I'm not saying that I'm gonna take everyone I see in, but if I had the money to be at all charitable, I'd get someone a place to stay for a while, at least so they could have a chance to get on their feet again. It's the least I could do as a productive member of this great society.

My problem with it all stems from the fact that no one in power seems interested in helping these people, and if they are, they aren't doing anything really good to fix it. I only hope that in the near future, they can get a hand on these things so that we may be able to better serve our own before we serve everyone else.

Originally posted by TheBorg
I find what you say to be quite true for the most part. However, I'm glad that you mentioned Communism, because as it happens, the basic belief of everyone having the essentials is a great idea. That does not mean that I condone Communism, because I don't. I only like one of it's main premises.

Oh absolutely, Communism in premise is a really nice ideal. But in practice corruption always seems to take place.

A nice little example is when you live with roommates and everyone takes turns washing dishes or taking out the trash. The chores might get done, but for the most part someone ends up slacking, and the dishes sit in the sink forever, or the trash just sits there until someone else ends up doing a little more work then the others.

As for the panhandlers around, some just can't handle a job, or they just don't want to work. Sure, not all of the people on the street are lazy bums, but more often then not, I've given people food rather then money, and they just throw the food away. Or they need change for a call to get home, and they come up to me with the same story the next day, and don't realize I'm the same person because they've asked so many people, or they're all strung out on whatever gets them high.

Look, I want free booze too, but I at least wait until there's a wedding with an open bar and give a gift or something in return.

And not all of them are homeless either. Some are just bums. Their job is to beg for money, and it works. Like I said, there are jobs out there. They're called positions at McDonalds, or waiters, or gardening, or washing toilets. They're not glamorous, but they provide pay. Hell, there's TELEMARKETING positions out there if you're really desperate.

But seriously, the people in power get there for the most part get there for making their bosses money (Except for nepotism). And if you hire some bum to be your salesman, or even store greeter, and they have no social skills, smell like a sewer, and don't show up on time, then they get fired, and their life lesson is to keep making the mistakes until they chose something that gets a different result, that works for them.

You could be the most powerful person in the world, and give as much money as you wanted to people, but some of them wouldn't invest it to help others or even themselves, some would just piss it away on booze, or a pimped out car, or whatever.

This happens to a lot of the lotto winners. They're poor people, strike it rich, spend a lot of money on hookers, and blow, or cars, or whatever, and then they die from something stupid, or end up broke.

All the money and power in the world wont change who you are or what you are. The fact is that change comes from within.

I remember a tv program in uk a many years ago, a charity set up to help the poor in britain by selling the a publication called , The Big Issue,the idea is these poor people buy this magazine from the company (with the money they get from the state) for a small amount and then resell to the public. The story showed this poor man in old clothes begging in the streets,when he had finished he was followed,he approached a BMW opened the boot changed his clothes and drove off in it. He was one of the successful ones apparently making a LOT of money because he had a great location. He was making more money than the people feeling sorry for him.

Mirthful1,

You and I share a lot of the same views, as I've come to realize. We just have a different way of seeing one or two things. I am more of a pessimistic person, while you seem to be more optimistic, which is a good thing for you.

In my case, having graduated from school with a computer science degree at the end of the .com era was a very bad idea. I have landed in a part of the nation where positions like this are impossible to find, and no one would want me if they needed me because they could go outsource to someone else for a hell of a lot cheaper. So I did the next best thing, cashier... It's a humble existence, and it totally sucks, but someone has to do it. And as soon as I can figure out a way to make my degree pay me back, I'm gonna jump it.

Based on this history, I've come to see things in a negative light, and have done studies with as open a mind as I can have, when I've seen so much. I love life and all it has to offer, but I just can't see where I fit in, with the whole world going down the toilet all at once. It could very well be that I'm just having an identity crisis, and need counseling of some kind, I dunno. All I DO know is that I cannot stand to see me and my fellow citizens not lead productive lives.

How is anyone to truly live when they are bound to their job? If I have to work 80 hrs a week just to support me and my family, then there's no 'life' for me there. There's just work. I then wonder why it is that I have to work that long to make that kind of money, and that's because the state average pay is like $9/hr, which kinda ruins any chances of a life for me. Next, I wonder why it is that they pay me so little, and it turns out that that's based on the national average, and if someone will come along and work for less (a.k.a. outsourcing), then my pay goes down AGAIN!! See where I'm going with this? The only explanation for me is that it's all due to corruption on a grand scale. One that we can't even begin to comprehend probably.

I only wish I knew more... Sometimes, a nugget of knowledge is a bad thing.

What bollocks. I was going to send TheBorg a private message, but I got this:

You may not send private messages to anyone
but ATS Staff until you have more than 20 posts.


Blah. sorry. I wanted to send a PM instead of vering this topic further off topic.
So, I guess if I make 17 more posts or so, and remember what the hell I was going to message you about, I'll PM you.

/Just don't need everyone knowing what needs not to be known.

I suggest writing it down. That helps some. At least you won't forget it. Keep it in a safe place too, so as not to lose it.. just throw posts in several places, giving a general opinion on things... Don't have to be any more than a sentence or two. Racks up post numbers fast.