Listen to This Out There Idea

With the defeat of "inteligent Design", which makes Darwins theory of evolution prominant...Why do we have social programs..such as welfare, mecicare, and medicade? The Darwin theory states the survival of the fitest! Why sould you and especially "I" pay for these programs? (Let me say I have family members on 1 or all of these programs) Please give me some feedback.

BTW: I'm not on-line 24/7. So please post. It may take a day or 2 to respond, but I will.

We're a social species. We take care of each other, that's how we survive now and that's why we're the most dominant species. As for these program's, it would cost more for each individual to pay for them by themselve's then it would to just pay through a tax. It's not hurting you much anyway's and in the long run benefit's you. Everyone pays for everyone for the greater benefit of everyone.

Good answer Produkt,
It's our actions, behavior, attitudes towards others that seperates us from the rest of the animal kingdom.
I watched a most fascinating show recently, "March of the Penguins". In the bitter cold of the antartic, the only way they survive is by huldling together to conserve warmth. We can all learn from the these little guys.

There's alot mankind can learn from the animal kingdom.

As much as I hate the idea of the welfare system being abused, it is needed under some circumstances.

For instance my friend and his ex fiance. They had a child. They were living together. She worked at his family restaurant. Their relationship started to go sour for whatever reason and he kicked her out of the house. She had to go live in a shelter because she lost her job (obviously since it was his restaurant) and had to find a new job. She had no savings (she was not rich) and could not get an apartment. So she had to go on welfare and live in a shelter temporarily until she got her feet under her. Under this circumstance I can see the neccesity of welfare programs.

My sister was working full time and going to school part time. She is a single mother to a deadbeat father. She decided that she had to finish her degree and goto school full time to get her degree in Nursing. She has a place to live but makes use of welfare for food stamps and raising her child. Agin I can understand the necessity of the welfare program.

It is when people abuse it that it starts to suck. When I see a jobless mother of 6 children living off welfare and unemployment in section 8 housing, it makes me scratch my head.

[edit on 10-1-2006 by ImplementOfWar]

It is sad that some people abuse the system. Welfare your only aloud on for 2 years now. This is mainly a result of those people who abused it. Medicare/Medicade you have to meet certain income guideline's to get on.

Originally posted by ImplementOfWar

It is when people abuse it that it starts to suck. When I see a jobless mother of 6 children living off welfare and unemployment in section 8 housing, it makes me scratch my head.

[edit on 10-1-2006 by ImplementOfWar]

Well I think some people forget that if you have kids and end up divorced to a deadbeat dad...then you are royally screwed! One kid may not be bad, but say you had 2,3,...6 kids with someone and they supported you and the family and then disappeared. How do you raise 6 kids on your own (god think of the stress!).

What I think you meant is someone on welfare still having kids and living off the system. Different dads, no job, watching TV all day, and not even raising the kids right. Yeah I've seen plenty of that where I live. You just want to take those people and toss them in jail, they are pathetic. The worst is that those kids get raised like crap and learn by example, leading to more social ills.

I think welfare reform has helped. I do know someone who was on it and they had a hell of a time. All they really needed was some money for food, rent, and gas so they could interview for jobs for 3 months and instead ended up getting the run around and told to fill out more forms. This was someone who had never filed for unemployment, always worked, and ended up getting divorced from an abusive husband...she sacrificed herself to get the kids away from him. I think there needs to be something a little easier for "first timers" on welfare, who just need a short term loan/grant to get back on their feet instead of the process that currently exists.

Originally posted by CSRules
With the defeat of "inteligent Design", which makes Darwins theory of evolution prominant...Why do we have social programs..such as welfare, mecicare, and medicade? The Darwin theory states the survival of the fitest! Why sould you and especially "I" pay for these programs? (Let me say I have family members on 1 or all of these programs) Please give me some feedback.

The funny thing that some people forget is that most scientists are on welfare...

Most of them are just studying nature and the world around us. They are given grants from the government and corporations to provide them a livelihood and do research. Most really don't produce anything tangible, like a guy building a house, making a jacket, or growing food (nothing that is survivalist in nature)..but they are essential to our species. Who is really producing: the astronomer or the guy growing strawberries?

So was Darwin on welfare? He wrote a book with a theory, but is this really a survival of the fittest kind of activity? Can you wear, eat, or build a house with his book...can it defeat a lion from attacking you, or raise a tomato?

I think humans are outside Darwin's theory...are greatest weapon is our intelligence not a row of sharp teeth or the ability to fly. A friend of mine in high school came from a family on welfare, spoke little english and doing the occasional farm jobs when they could..he went on to MIT!!! Full Ride! He was smarter than all of our class who were born from doctors, teachers, airplane pilots, etc. How do you know who is going to be intelligent? Our growth as a species depends on intelligence, so in a Darwin way, not supporting possible future intelligences from the "lower class" is a detriment to us surviving.

Should we throw away our older intelligences too by not providing them medicare? Do we tell people that at age 50: you are on your own now because your body is going to be too expensive to keep up. Will people really enjoy life or continue to work if they know at age 50-60 they will probably die. I for one would be tempted to bail out on society after my education (age 18) and just go enjoy my life on some island fishing and playing on the beach. Why stick around and be milked by society and then cast away at age 50?

The problem to me with medicare is that people need to realize that they will die, that living at all costs when you are 90 will bankrupt the system. Now I'm fine with someone getting by on some pills that are less than $200 a month. Living longer is about nutrition, execercise, and genetics...proping up someone who is half dead with costly drugs is up for debate. I'm sure when I'm 90 I would love to still live so I could see my family or see another sunset, but I think I need to be realistic and say I can't demand society to support me forever at all costs...I need to accept a reasonable level of care was given to keep me alive and when it becomes too high, I need to accept death.

That's my best arguement...have fun!

The social welfare system was intended as an emergency point of monatary needs for those of whom that had or have true emergency needs. It was not designed as a public titty for those who are just to lazy/stupid/and obeise and not wanting to work. I've seen my share of able bodied men and women who think that the govt. owes them something while receiving benifits that could go to someone who has a legitimit need.
Now do not take this next statement the wrong way. I have been seeing an ever increasing number of Hispanics on these welfare programs who are here without a green card. Even though they appear to be able bodied the state give them just about anything they want. Notice I did not say need.
They are breeding like rats and have just about ruined our local health care system in the process. I am all for the social programs that go directly to those who show that they need it, but giving it away to known undocumented Hispanics gets my blood boiling because that is where part of my taxes are going.
If people would just stop and take a step back and look at the depth of the severity of the problem, we could effect change in the system that is not only going broke and exercising poor judgement, but get it to those who truley need it.

Ref:
www.bbc.co.uk...

"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
-- Ann Landers

And lest we forget the lesson of history, using Darwinism as the public sales, Hitler exterminated
an estimated 275,000 disabled (welfare) folks, second in size only to the Jewish folks.
Origin of Species - Darwin, first published in 1859, plenty of time for folks to beat you to this question,
CSRules. Seems the first american state to pass mandantory sterilization for genetic conditions looks to be in 1907.
European states that followed were: "Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Estonia, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia,
Lithuania, Latvia, Hungary and Turkey. " But that was in the 20's and 30's. By 1939, the Nazi's followed sterilization
with the active killing program.

Remember Peter Seller's classic line in Dr Strangelove ?

"Mein Furer, I can walk !"

Now you understand the joke.

I have been listening to a wonderful radio station in California which goes under the byline New Dimensions. Recently they discussed a paper published some years ago in probably the best scientific journal in the world Nature. To be brief a study was made to see at what deer would decide to go to a waterhole after feed of grass. One would think according to Darwin that the top deer would make the decision to move. However it turns out that over a period of time the deer would begin to orientate themselves towards water until there was 51% thinking about moving. Then they would be off. The only exception to this was if a predator was in the area and then they would need a 75% majority. These results where repeated for other species both mammals and birds. This indicates seeing that we are part of the natural order of things whether we like it or not that for the surival of the species we have duty to look after one another whether they be weak or strong. They went on to discuss in this context the ideas of Thomas Jefferson and how the above relates to democracy!

Originally posted by CSRules


..Why do we have social programs..such as welfare, mecicare, and medicade?

The WHY has been pretty well stated in the thread...
a community consciousness, and/or a higher moral thing.

but, we also continue supporting these idealistic programs- in spite of the abuses- because we desire a 'safety-net', a type of 'insurance'...

The Darwin theory states the survival of the fitest! Why sould you and especially "I" pay for these programs? (Let me say I have family members on 1 or all of these programs) Please give me some feedback.

in a way, even these welfare oriented persons are a product of the social evolution...they have found a niche in the social order and use their wiles & intelligence to scavange a meager life without much sweat labor.

~i also suggest that the majority of those welfare recipients are more concerned with maintaining and extending their gov't provided income sources....that they do not become street criminals...but rather are the targets of street thugs & criminals.

I'll bet youse thought the Bush&Co tactic of having the terrorists focused in Iraq instead of the US homeland was a unique idea...
if you think about it, the welfare recipients & their meager incomes/benefits
are the 'Lure' that attracts the criminal element to the barrios & ghettos...
and away from the middleclass burbs & the elites' estates.
So, the bane of our social conscious & idealistic virtue, (the welfare class),
is the attractor which helps keep the scavangers-vultures-predators-and criminals away from my back-yard...

survival of the fittest is still at work, its just a little obscure...imo

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

but there is a 'compassionate conservative' WASP ethic program being quietly pursued right now...the IRS is busy weeding out the tax-return frauds by families making false claims for the 'Earned Income Credit' Refunds.

source: Yahoo News

i guess that little niche & resource for the cheats, will be replaced by another devious scheme....hey as a door slams shut- another one will open

Before welfare, folks helped each other out. The fact that we have it now is not a flattering commentary on our present attitudes. If people still helped each other out like back then, it would be unnecessary.
We are reluctantly compassionate... we'll set up a social safety net, then whine about it.
Remember, every single day, around the world, approx. 50 000 kids die from either starvation or lack of basic medical care. 365 days a year.
If we were truly compassionate, we'd likely shave .001% off the worlds military budget and do something about that....
But we're not.

In my opinion a parent's first objective is to take care of their child or children. What if the best thing that a parent can do for their child is to collect Welfare? A woman down the street has a little boy who has had medical problems since he was born. She is currently on Welfare and the boy's medical expenses are covered by the State's medical insurence system. She asked her case worker about her getting a job and trying to get off of Welfare and was told that if she got a job, even for minimum wage, her son would lose his medical insurence. With the costs of health insurence these days there are very few employers who would hire her because her son would be a drain on their insurence expenses. Another thing is that if she got a job, her son might not be covered by the insurence because he has a pre-existing condition. She is doing the best for her child by staying on Welfare.

One other thing that might prove interesting. I served five years in the US Navy from 1982-1987. My main purpose for enlisting was to obtain money for college. You have heard about the GI Bill paying for education? During my service there was no GI Bill. We had a program called VEAP (Veteran's Educational Assistance Program). VEAP was like a 401k, you contributed so much from your pay and the government would contribute so much. Well most of the way throught my enlistment VEAP gets cancelled, not only did I not have money for college, the government kept the money I contributed because of some screw-up in the income tax laws. In 1996 I was laid off from my job and my unemployment benefits were about to run out and I get a letter telling me about a meeting that I had to be at. I go to the meeting and find out that I am eligable for a grant of $10,000 for college if I am accepted to this program. I find out that I am eligable and I start college the next semester. One of the rules of this program is that I have to be a full time student. I am supposed to be elegible for a medical card and food stamps while I am in this program. Now for the good part. I go to apply for the medical card and food stamps at the Welfare office and I am told that I am NOT eligable for either and that I should QUIT school and get a job! The current Welfare system is not designed to help people get on their own, it is designed to keep them dependant on the State. This tends to make them grateful to the politicians who keep the welfare money flowing.

I too had a lot of trouble paying for college... so much so that after a total of 4 years of working full time and going to school too, I lost interest.
In Canada, college is free if you are in prison... go figure.
There is a serial killer who has gotten two college degrees while in jail. He gets it for free, but I refuse to become a convicted criminal just to pay for college.

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
I too had a lot of trouble paying for college... so much so that after a total of 4 years of working full time and going to school too, I lost interest.
In Canada, college is free if you are in prison... go figure.
There is a serial killer who has gotten two college degrees while in jail. He gets it for free, but I refuse to become a convicted criminal just to pay for college.

I was told that I wasn't eligable for the medical card or food stamps because I wasn't a minority, female, a convicted felon, an alcoholic, drug addict or homosexual. The woman even showed me in her manual where it said this. Go figure.

I have had a couple people that I know come back on me telling me that I got a free ride to go to school and they didn't appriciate their tax dollars going for those type of programs. I look at it this way. One: The Government took over $7000 that I had contributed to the VEAP program. Two: Untill my layoff I had never been out of work and paid my taxes.
Three: Since I finished school I have had good well paying jobs and the taxes that I have paid since are more that it cost to send me to school in the first place.

[edit on 11-1-2006 by JIMC5499]

It is my belief that since the federal reserve creates and distributes untold sums of digital money, which they created on demand when they had none before, kind of like out of thin air.... so then taxes are more of a way to limit the personal power and freedom of the masses, whose money was not just printed up whenever needed, but was in fact, earned, thus it was 'real'. It represents blood, sweat, and tears. It has a real value. The mint runs done to tweak the economy and infuse capital into the system, that is money from nothing. So, your friends don't have to worry about the taxes they are paying going to pay for things they don't suppoirt. It is not needed to pay for them, they have unlimited money already.

Originally posted by Produkt
We're a social species. We take care of each other, that's how we survive now and that's why we're the most dominant species. As for these program's, it would cost more for each individual to pay for them by themselve's then it would to just pay through a tax. It's not hurting you much anyway's and in the long run benefit's you. Everyone pays for everyone for the greater benefit of everyone.

I respectfully disagree. What you say is the definition of socialist agenda. We are a competitive species. Social in our interaction but not in our dealing of position on the economic food chain. We are being programmed to think this way but it is not a "natural" reaction of our species to take care of another. It is within us to kill and maim for the purpose to pull ourselves above our common man. IMHO.

Originally posted by FLYIN HIGH
The social welfare system was intended as an emergency point of monatary needs for those of whom that had or have true emergency needs. It was not designed as a public titty for those who are just to lazy/stupid/and obeise and not wanting to work. I've seen my share of able bodied men and women who think that the govt. owes them something while receiving benifits that could go to someone who has a legitimit need.
Now do not take this next statement the wrong way. I have been seeing an ever increasing number of Hispanics on these welfare programs who are here without a green card. Even though they appear to be able bodied the state give them just about anything they want. Notice I did not say need.
They are breeding like rats and have just about ruined our local health care system in the process. I am all for the social programs that go directly to those who show that they need it, but giving it away to known undocumented Hispanics gets my blood boiling because that is where part of my taxes are going.
If people would just stop and take a step back and look at the depth of the severity of the problem, we could effect change in the system that is not only going broke and exercising poor judgement, but get it to those who truley need it.

Flyin' High..I agree 100%. I'm not some ogre who doesn't want to help someone. But the people we help have to be willing to help themselves. I've read some of the post here and my heart goes out to some of these people. What I'm saying is...these people need to take a job, any job. If it pays less than the welfare check, fine we'll make up the difference. But to expect a "FREE RIDE" off of society is wrong. This also goes to my argument for againt illegal immegrants. :They take jobs Americans don't want" B.S. Let the free loaders on welfare take those jobs. If they were making more on welfare...then let the system suppliment them. If they don't like what they are doing, but are willing to work at something....let the system pay to educate them to get a better job. But to pay a healthy individual who can be productive to society to sit on their @$$ is just wrong!! What I am saying is if your willing to work to help yourself, I have no problem, helping someone do it. But if your are going to sit on your @$$ and let the Govt/PEOPLE take care of you...well then it is survival of the fittest.

Originally posted by CSRules
What I'm saying is...these people need to take a job, any job. If it pays less than the welfare check, fine we'll make up the difference. But to expect a "FREE RIDE" off of society is wrong. This also goes to my argument for againt illegal immegrants. :They take jobs Americans don't want" B.S. Let the free loaders on welfare take those jobs. If they were making more on welfare...then let the system suppliment them. If they don't like what they are doing, but are willing to work at something....let the system pay to educate them to get a better job. But to pay a healthy individual who can be productive to society to sit on their @$$ is just wrong!! What I am saying is if your willing to work to help yourself, I have no problem, helping someone do it. But if your are going to sit on your @$$ and let the Govt/PEOPLE take care of you...well then it is survival of the fittest.

I couldn't agree more, EXCEPT that the welfare system isn't setup to do that. It actually penalizes people who are trying to get jobs. Unless you can land a well paying job with benefits you can't afford to leave the Welfare system. We need to change the system before we expect people to try to get on their own. In my place of employment we have had positions open for years, because we can't find qualified people to fill them. These are not positions requiring extensive education, in most cases an Associate's degree will do. There are just not enough qualified people out there. How about instead of requiring these people to take just any job they can find, we send them to school and get them qualified for the jobs that are out there, ones they can make a decent living at.