Who is behind the plain Biblical deceptions?

Originally posted by think2much
The more I study it, the more I am inclined to believe the Almighty God of the Bible, is indeed God of this world, Earth, and this universe as we know it...but He is not alone...

The reason you are seeing multiple gods in Genesis, is because they are there. If you want to understand why, you have to study the history of Judaism.

In its infancy, the Hebrew people were polytheistic just like everyone else in Canaan (and pretty much everywhere else on earth too). The Genesis stories were formed during this era, even though they were penned later on by YHWH cultists trying to replace other gods (particularly El), with YHWH. El was the god of fertility, and Ashera was El's consort. YHWH was a god of war. The writers of the 1st five books (the Pentateuch) attempted to show that YHWH could take the place of El, Ashera, Baal their son, and the rest of the Semitic pantheon. Baal was known as the son of god and Baal's death and resurrection were celebrated anually (sound familiar?).

It's popular to reinterpret what these things mean with phrases like "interpret scripture with scripture", but this idea misses a fundamental fact, which is that the Bible is a collection of books written by different authors over the course of 1000 years. Later writings built on earlier writings, with new interpretations according to the zeitgeist of the writer, but earlier writings were not written with future writings in mind.

But, if you read the Bible as you would any other collection of books (and in chronological order), it takes on a new meaning, where later redactions become obvious.

Thanks Spamandham, that was a well written walk through some history of the Bible, and explains generically the other gods-but if the first books were in an effort to consolodate gods into one I don't think they'd reference them or even elude to them....

but to me, as a believer my question is what is God trying to tell me with these scriptures...that Christianity finds so threatening

also...

Later writings built on earlier writings, with new interpretations according to the zeitgeist of the writer, but earlier writings were not written with future writings in mind.

This is a fine statement for those who do not understand what believers actually believe...which is that by the hand of God...putting it into the hearts and minds of the writer what to write for His purpose...indeed he being the author, not the mortal who wrote it, then indeed the earlier writings WERE written with future writings in mind...in God
s mind.

So while it is interesting and helps educate me, I can't say I believe it, but I do thank you for your history lesson and a very well written post to the question of multiple gods.

spamandham,

You are becoming a one man think tank. The wealth of information you've been presenting lately is definitley outstanding!




Another thing worth looking up or googling would be the concept of "Metatron", an angel with numerous other names, and supposedly reported as one of the highest of all the angels of judaic culture. One of his names closely resembles a way that YHWH would have been pronounced by some tribal cultures throughout the "holy" land in the early b.c. s.

[edit on 2-1-2006 by Esoteric Teacher]

Originally posted by think2much
Thanks Spamandham, that was a well written walk through some history of the Bible, and explains generically the other gods-but if the first books were in an effort to consolodate gods into one I don't think they'd reference them or even elude to them....

They had to reference them, because the books were being written partly as works of persuasion for the followers of El, Baal, etc. The writers could not expect to accomplish that goal if they totally rewrote the familiar Genesis stories excluding the pantheon (known as Elohim in those days). Later monotheistic writings simply presumed that El was just another name for YHWH, and modern day apologists make the anachronistic error of claiming Elohim was just a plural form used because god is a King, much like a modern monarch might refer to himself in the plural.

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
spamandham,

You are becoming a one man think tank. The wealth of information you've been presenting lately is definitley outstanding!

Thanks for the kind words!

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
Another thing worth looking up or googling would be the concept of "Metatron", an angel with numerous other names, and supposedly reported as one of the highest of all the angels of judaic culture.

I had never even heard of Metatron until your post. It's not clear from what I've found what role he may have played (if any) in the Bible.

Originally posted by think2much
This is a fine statement for those who do not understand what believers actually believe...which is that by the hand of God...putting it into the hearts and minds of the writer what to write for His purpose...indeed he being the author, not the mortal who wrote it, then indeed the earlier writings WERE written with future writings in mind...in God
s mind.

If you take the position that the Bible as a whole is cohesive because god is the real author, then it should be obvious why a polytheistic perspective of Genesis is problematic.

FYI, it's really only a small percentage of believers who hold that god is the author of the Bible. The Bible itself does not even make such a claim. The closest you get to such a claim is in 2 Timothy, but it's a far cry from a claim that the Bible was written by god using the hands of humans.

Originally posted by spamandham

I had never even heard of Metatron until your post. It's not clear from what I've found what role he may have played (if any) in the Bible.

I forget where it was exactly in the bible when it stated someone had "wrestled with God", but I was told by a few individuals the name given in the original texts were various names for "Metatron". I'm still trying to find more info on this character myself, but he supposedly had at least 86 other names, including an exact name that QueenAnnie said in a different post was an accepted name for God in ancient Aramaic. Wish i had more to offer, but whoever this character was, he was there in the first 5 books of the bible.

Originally posted by think2much
I am confused-indeed-but ONLY that I seem anti-Christian for questioning the Bible and it's scriptures and different perceptions of it, and am even more confused why when I speak about these things, not just here, but anywhere, I am seem to be a heretic!

Get to know me--you might find you 'are in good company' in the heretic department

I am seen to be needing/seeking to be saved by some...

But some of us see through that regressive idea.

...and by others as if I am discounting the validity of the Bible! By both those who would be for this or against it-and I am NOT!

All because I dare to point out scriptures that go unnoticed at best...certainly unexplained....and at worst completely covered up!

And this continual ignorance of the existance of these scriptures, or the disregarding of specific scriptures by most mainstream Judeo-Christians certainly seems to be a covering up of sorts of unexplained scriptures!

I could not agree more! With all that you are saying...

...and the thoughts that could logically progress from them...none of which dispute the validity of the Bible, nor the sovereignty of God, but are still seen as heretical because they threaten the security of believers by proposing there is possibly more to know and understand-why is that so scary or perceived as evil?

Because it requires a readjustment of one's view--and the readjustment includes a moment or two of 'floating in oblivion'--essentially this is the proverbial 'leap of faith' over the 'abyss.'

I will have to rethink how I should represent the conspiracy I see and am faced with....admittedly I made this thread off the top of my head and no one seems to have gotten the real point...lost in my Biblical speculations of the races of gods and jokes about ATS etc....

Actually, I did. From the start. I'm just not interested in the snafu which resulted by those that didn't. A new thread, now, there is an idea!

why are these things and scriptures not spoken of, not clarified, not understood, and what would be contradictory about those thoughts with Christianity as a whole so as to cover them up and not discuss them openly?!?!?!?! Without reprimands!

Refer to 2 Thessalonians, chapter 2!

I just continue to see an inadvertant cover-up of the truth-of the "more" in the Bible than meets the eye

No doubt!!!

I don't think anyone read my follow-up post trying to be clearer of my personal stand either so likely no one will bother reading this as well...

I did, my friend.

but I will try...another time...in another thread...

Please let me know, U2U me if I don't show up right away!

Regarding Metatron:

Encyclopedia Mythica

Jewish Roots of Eastern Christian Mysticism

Spirit Heart Sanctuary

Esoteric, about wrestling with an angel:

Jacob (meaning 'deceiver') wrestled all night with Peniel/Penuel (face of God) near the ford Jabbok, (on one side, his troop overnighting on the other side), and in the morning was rewarded with a name change. He became Israel (who prevails with God). The place was then named Peniel by Israel because of this.

Genesis 32.

I am surprised that no christians or Jews have provided the obvious refutation from scripture that there are many, perhaps co-equal gods with Yahweh. I will now provide some scriptures from Isaiah. I have little doubt that Isaiah is inspired material, because from this we learn of the mission of the messiah in Isaiah 53, the regathering of the exiles of Israel in Isaiah 11 and we learn of the virgin birth of Y'shua.

In Isaiah chapter 45, God predicts in advance the name of the general that will destroy Babylon and in fact challenges any other so called God to provide the same power of prediction. This was precisely fulfilled when Cyrus was raised up among the Medo-Persians and did in fact destroy Babylon hundreds of years after the prophecy was given. In this same chapter, God, speaking through Isaiah says the following in verse 5,

I am the LORD, and there is no other;

He later says in verses 19-24,

For this is what the LORD says—
he who created the heavens,
he is God;
he who fashioned and made the earth,
he founded it;
he did not create it to be empty,
but formed it to be inhabited—
he says:
"I am the LORD,
and there is no other.

19 I have not spoken in secret,
from somewhere in a land of darkness;
I have not said to Jacob's descendants,
'Seek me in vain.'
I, the LORD, speak the truth;
I declare what is right.

20 "Gather together and come;
assemble, you fugitives from the nations.
Ignorant are those who carry about idols of wood,
who pray to gods that cannot save.

21 Declare what is to be, present it—
let them take counsel together.
Who foretold this long ago,
who declared it from the distant past?
Was it not I, the LORD ?
And there is no God apart from me,
a righteous God and a Savior;
there is none but me.

22 "Turn to me and be saved,
all you ends of the earth;
for I am God, and there is no other.

23 By myself I have sworn,
my mouth has uttered in all integrity
a word that will not be revoked:
Before me every knee will bow;
by me every tongue will swear.

24 They will say of me, 'In the LORD alone
are righteousness and strength.' "
All who have raged against him
will come to him and be put to shame.

seven thunders, it does acknowledge other gods.


Jdg 2:13 And they forsook the LORD, and served Baal and Ashtaroth.

there are many other mentions of other gods, but i'm currently searching the bible for them, so be patient.

wow, this was in an old BTS thread

Originally posted by maathotep
Here is a list I have compiled through me and dedicated friends own research that show other gods in the bible. You may dispute it, but after you read and do your own research, dont say it isnt true untill you look at it for yourself as I had to do.You cant deny it! It's right in your face!
This was told to me years ago but, I didnt believe it then. But now I realize that the Bible is not just about one god and his son, but many gods(as it states in Genesis -in the beginning Gods (eloheem -plural form of god in original text,) created the heaven and earth.)Also Let us make man in our image and our likeness.

So get out you pads and take notes..here goes!

1.Baalzephon Baal Tsphon,or Baal-Zephon= "Lord of the North." Mentioned three times: Exodus14:2, ...14:9, Numbers 33:7

2.Anammelech= "Image of the King." Defined in the Bible dictionary Lexicon as " an Assyrian false god introduced to Israel during the Monarchy. Worshipped with rites resembling those of Molech-companion god of "Adrammelech" 2Kings 17:31

3.Ashima "guiltless: I will make desolate" a god of Hamath 2kings 17:30

I'm sure you science fiction buffs not interested in religion have heard of this one:

4.Ashtaroth=Star, False goddess in the Canaanite religion, usually related to fertility or Ashtoreth,The priciple female deity of the Phonecians worshipped in war and fetility also Ishtar of Assyria and "Astarte" by the Greeks and Romans. Mentioned 11 times (Joshua 9:10,12:4,13:12,13:31,Judges2:13...sorry will return tomorrow have to go, phone is ringing. Im a server tech for IBM, just surfing away company time.lol

how about that?

there was actually an entire thread devoted to the topic of other gods in the bible.

i think this serves as the burden for proof for extrayawehical (wow, new word right there) gods in the bible.

[edit on 2-1-2006 by madnessinmysoul]

There is one 'Father'--not even mentioned in the OT.

Then there are sons of God. These are princes and they are kings. The are gods--but not 'living gods', dying made these gods 'idols of stone and wood' on Earth and in Heaven are bound as constellations in the cosmos.

But one did not die. He became the King of Kings.

Lord is not the same word as God. God means highest magistrate, and sovereign over all. Lord means magistrate, over a portion of the all.

The LORD of the OT was the God of the Israelites--and through a victory over His 'brethren,' which included the one who was cast out of 'heaven' (cast out= death) but who still is presiding over our material world (until it is reclaimed),--became the LORD of all.

There are 7, presided over by the 8th. On both the side of the 'good guys' and the 'bad guys.'

Thunder - the reason that no one has replied in force is a: it is the Christmas holiday time and b: spamandham, queen, Eso, and the other guy are teaming up at a non-believer convention near you so to speak and gang rushing ANY convo about God or anything else that fits into that realm to discredit soemthing they think they know so much about (like stalkers really...lol). Anyway, just thought you'd like to know. You can verify this by searching all the threads they have collaborated on. Just start a thread about God or anything and watch, hijack with masks guns and so called truth from thier point of view. But that is cool, cause as many people as reads this I know one thing, when it starts coming true it'll be too late for them to say "but we didn't know" boohoo. I've tried and failed but that too is ok. It is that whole pearls and swine thing we were warned about I guess...

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
I forget where it was exactly in the bible when it stated someone had "wrestled with God",

Jacob supposedly wrestled with god, but I suspect your thinking of Enoch?

Originally posted by OneGodJesus
But that is cool, cause as many people as reads this I know one thing, when it starts coming true it'll be too late for them to say "but we didn't know"

boohoo. I've tried and failed but that too is ok. It is that whole pearls and swine thing we were warned about I guess...

I guess I could say the same, in all honesty. But I won't.

The thing about it is

You say:
'I've tried and failed but that too is ok.' Preceded by a 'boohoo' crocodile tear:


As for me, however, I say:
'I will never quit trying because I cannot fail.'

Two questions, yes or no answers only:

1. Does God fail?

2. Would one of His soldiers ever give up or even consider failure a possibility, let alone an irreversible fact?



[edit on 1/2/2006 by queenannie38]

Originally posted by OneGodJesus
Thunder - the reason that no one has replied in force is a: it is the Christmas holiday time and b: spamandham, queen, Eso, and the other guy are teaming up at a non-believer convention near you so to speak and gang rushing ANY convo about God or anything else that fits into that realm to discredit soemthing they think they know so much about (like stalkers really...lol).

Hmmm - nothing to offer but sophomoric rhetoric, combined with an obnoxious personality that resorts to personal attacks and consitently states fantasy as if it were fact. Welcome to my ignore list!

Originally posted by SevenThunders
I am surprised that no christians or Jews have provided the obvious refutation from scripture that there are many, perhaps co-equal gods with Yahweh. I will now provide some scriptures from Isaiah.

Of course, if you take later writings written during the monotheistic age, they're going to contradict the earlier polytheistic writings of Genesis.

Isahiah 11 does not talk about a virgin birth. The proper translation is 'young woman', not 'virgin'. Isaiah 53 is not a messianic prophecy at all, but a lamentation of the nation of Israel. The 'suffering servant' is explicitly clarified to be the nation of Israel in Isaiah 49. Chapter 53 continues the same discourse started in Isaiah 49.

Originally posted by queenannie38

Originally posted by OneGodJesus
But that is cool, cause as many people as reads this I know one thing, when it starts coming true it'll be too late for them to say "but we didn't know"

boohoo. I've tried and failed but that too is ok. It is that whole pearls and swine thing we were warned about I guess...

I guess I could say the same, in all honesty. But I won't.

The thing about it is

You say:
'I've tried and failed but that too is ok.' Preceded by a 'boohoo' crocodile tear:

As for me, however, I say:
'I will never quit trying because I cannot fail.'

Two questions, yes or no answers only:

1. Does God fail?

2. Would one of His soldiers ever give up or even consider failure a possibility, let alone an irreversible fact?

[edit on 1/2/2006 by queenannie38]

One casts the seeds another waters God gives the abundance. I've cast the seeds and I am done. Time to move on to another area of life... the real world.

[edit on 2/1/06 by OneGodJesus]

both Spam and Queenannie are right, finally found it, well looked them both up. both the book of Enoch and Jacob both "wrestled with God". As for all the other posts since my last contribution, well what a lot of information. This sight is great for free thinkers, isn't it? Also good for brain dumping and sharing new ideas, or refining the ones we have.

Does God fail?

No, however .. .. . .

God being the pinacle, the first observer, and percieved as all knowing may have been ignorant of the fact that perhaps when the fist one, i like to call "TRUTH" created the second most highes power "LOVE" the all knowing could not have known that balance would have had to have to been a necessity. Not everyone agrees with me, and their truth may be different, but i think fear would be loves opposite. But God was not at fault, just no basis for comparison, no pre-existing knowledge of balance was known. God was not aware when "LOVE" was created that an opposing concept would also instantly manifest itself into existance. Perhaps God desires our understanding and forgiveness, but is still far greater a concept than we can as of yet begin to put into words.

I'd like to stress that ignorance is not stupidity. Ignorance is simply not knowing, and how could the original "TRUTH/OBSERVER" provide free will and simultiniously known about something prior to that something existing. Free will in a pre-destined existance may not be able to co-exist.

Personally, i find comfort in knowing God loves LOVE so much, that God is not willing to part with fear and hate and all other percieved negative emotions. But i think God's fear of losing LOVE is truly the only justifiable fear, our fears are just illusions of how our perceptions operate.

[edit on 2-1-2006 by Esoteric Teacher]

[edit on 2-1-2006 by Esoteric Teacher]