Allah Is Not the Same God From the Torah or Bible?

I do believe that the word Allah comes from the Arabic (Il-Lah)...meaning The One.
It has nothing to do with the moon, and i assure you, the God we worship is the same as jews and christians do. Hence Abraham is called the "great example" to mankind. It speaks in the Quran of the religion of Abraham.

Interesting though about the crescent sign....i'm still not sure why that is so symbolic of Islam. Personally, i dont think we should associate ANYTHING with God, be it signs, symbols etc.

But anyway, yeah, Allah is God. I remember hearing from someone that christians in arab countries say Allah....because...well....its arabic

The crescent became a symbol of Islam when the Turks took it after conquering Constantinople. It was originally their symbol. I think the story has something to do with the 2 arms of the crescent stretching out over all the king's land in his dream, thus he made it his symbol.

Nakash, that's the first time I've heard this stuff. You got a link to more that I can check up? Because as far as I know, Muhammad was never called "Elijah Muhammad". Also, muslims believe that "The line of prophetic revealation" was promised to all of Abraham's line, so they acknowledge both Isaac's line, as well as Ishmael's line (which is said to be the one from which Muhammad came).

[edit on 9-1-2006 by babloyi]

Okay so, if Muslems, Christians and Jews all worship the same God, then how is it that Muslems refer to Jews and Christians as infidels and non-believers? If the only difference is in basic interpretation of the scripture, when or if the Messiah has come, then why is there such anamosity among, Jews/Christians and Muslems? Jews and Christians accept that we worship the same deity and agree to disagree about Jesus Christ. Although Jews and Christians have differences, those differences are not enough to prevent the two from mutual respect and cooperation. This is why the USA and Israel are such strong allies. Radical Muslems use as their main battle cry that the USA and Israel are 'Infidels and Non-believers' and thus justifying their so called 'Jihad!' So please explain to me how this can be if we all are worshiping the same God! One can disagree on certain aspects of the gospel, have your own branch or church based on those beliefs and yet still agree in principle. But I do not see this acceptance from Muslems! Again I ask why is that if we worship the same God?

Originally posted by WHOFLUNGGUM
Okay so, if Muslems, Christians and Jews all worship the same God, then how is it that Muslems refer to Jews and Christians as infidels and non-believers?

Because they aren't muslims, I'd think that that is obvious. Jews don't consider christians beleivers and christians don't consider jews to be beleivers.

If the only difference is in basic interpretation of the scripture, when or if the Messiah has come, then why is there such anamosity among, Jews/Christians and Muslems?

There is allways animosity between religions. Christians kill other christians, jews in israel ostracise the samaritan jews, etc etc.

Jews and Christians accept that we worship the same deity and agree to disagree about Jesus Christ.

So why can't christians accept the same with muslims? If the trinitarian god of christianity can be the same god as the monotheistic singular god of the jews, then surely it can be the same god of islam.


Although Jews and Christians have differences, those differences are not enough to prevent the two from mutual respect and cooperation.
That is for a specific period in history, called 'today'. In the past, it was the opposite, and jewish and christain religion was seen as completely at odds.

This is why the USA and Israel are such strong allies.

?
The US doesn't care about israel's religion, israel represents a geostrategically important place, and its also a liberal democrat state that the US can work with, whereas the other countries in the region aren't. Notice that Turkey is a key ally of the US, especially in the cold war. It had nothing to do with religion.

Radical Muslems use as their main battle cry that the USA and Israel are 'Infidels and Non-believers'

And radical chrisians cry out that muslims are the anti-christ and shoudl be destroyed. What of it? The thinking members of both groups don't bother with that nonsense.

babyloi
I think the story has something to do with the 2 arms of the crescent stretching out over all the king's land in his dream, thus he made it his symbol.

Apparently, interstingly, the pre-islamic turks had a moon god, and the crescent moon was an important symbol amoung their tribe.

nakash
Well, The OT God can perfectly well be explained in a Trinitarian theology (the en sof of rabbinic tradition for example is just the trinitarian doctrine in a slightly altered form

Sure, it can be rationalized that the god of the Old Testament, who says things like "I am one" is the same god that gets a jewish chick named miriam pregnant and has a flesh and blood baby and is made up of the father, son, and a dove shaped divine ghost. Yeah, it can be rationalized as such. It can also be rationalized that the god of islam is the same god too.
No jew is saying 'god is really three parts', for example. The rationalization is a christian one, and christians do it, nowadays anyway, because they are comfortable now with the jews, and like to think of their religion as being tied to judaism. If it was islam that they prefered, and the political situation was different, then it'd be with islam that everyone would rationalize it.
Heck, some versions of islam, like, if I understand correctly, shi'a islam, which its multiple imams, is perhaps more like trinitarian christianity than orthodox judaism is.

Originally posted by Nygdan
Because they aren't muslims, I'd think that that is obvious. Jews don't consider christians beleivers and christians don't consider jews to be beleivers.

Don't talk to me like I am stupid, I know they are not muslems. I don't care about past history, today is all that matters. Jews and Christians accept each others differences for the good of both sides and work together. The USA is interested in Israel for several reason, one being the Holy sites related to the Bible and of course it is a strategic ally, so is Pakistan but that has nothing to do with the subject of the thread.

There is allways animosity between religions. Christians kill other christians, jews in israel ostracise the samaritan jews, etc etc.

Yes there always has been and always will be and the animosity between Muslems, Christians and Jews has drawn the Christians and Jews closer.
As I said, Christians and Jews have learned to put their religious differences aside and work together for the better good. The Catholic church has apologized for it's behavior during WW2. The late Pope John Paul II visited Israel for example. All in the name of better relations and understanding.

?
The US doesn't care about israel's religion, israel represents a geostrategically important place, and its also a liberal democrat state that the US can work with, whereas the other countries in the region aren't. Notice that Turkey is a key ally of the US, especially in the cold war. It had nothing to do with religion.

The USA cares about the Holy Land because of it's relation to the Bible and Christian belief not just because it is a Democratic state. Christians believe that the Jews are Gods chosen people and therefore will always be concerned for Israel's health! Also because the USA and Israel share a common threat! The enemy of my enemy is my friend, type of thing!

And radical chrisians cry out that muslims are the anti-christ and shoudl be destroyed. What of it? The thinking members of both groups don't bother with that nonsense.

It's not nonsense when it is being blasted across the evening news from Maine to Nome Alaska!! Iran's President calling for Israel's distruction certainly has me concerned, but I guess if I was a "thinking member" I would just say "Sticks and Stones". But it is not sticks and stones that I am worried about, it is bombs and guns! The main problem is that Radical Islamist have hijacked Islam and turned it into the 'Anti-Christ' that the Christians are screaming about. Jesus did not tie a bomb around his waste and blow up innocents in an attempt to enter heaven. He himself was put to death and suffered so that others could be saved. What the Radical Islamists are teaching through sucicide killings is 'Anti-Christ!' in it's truest
form. There in lies the biggest problem, the God of the Jews nor the Trinity of the Christians condones such acts. It is because of the acts of the Islamic terrorist that Jews and Christians search for understanding and seperation from such a God. The God of the Old Testament nor the God of the New Testament does not teach the kind of thinking that gave birth to Radical Islamist. This radical thinking was taken from the teachings of the Prophet Mohammed, whether directly or indirectly. It is simply cause and effect. The God of Israel and the Lord Jesus Christ had no hand in this.
Therefore, it is not of my God!

Allah Is Not the Same God From the Torah or Bible?

Then, if this is true:

Any omnipotent consciousness that is everywhere simply does not truly exist if GOD's presence is not in both.

In other words:

If the concepts of these faiths are devoid of truth, you just disproved God exists.

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher

Any omnipotent consciousness that is everywhere simply does not truly exist if GOD's presence is not in both.

In other words:

If the concepts of these faiths are devoid of truth, you just disproved God exists.

That is a very abstract way of thinking. Moses was given god's law and showed them to the children of Israel. That is God in it's simplest form.
How many ammendments to those orginal ten commandments does it take to remove you from God? To make things more complicated, throw in a Messiah that pays for our ammendments and tells us to beware of false prophets. Enter the Prophet Mohammed who's followers fashion their faith
on his teachings rather than the Old or New Testament. It is kinda like the game, 'Six degress from Kevin Bacon!" How far away from the truth does one have to wander before you are completely removed from reality? Even though a speck of truth begat the result, doesn't mean that the result is still the truth!

Originally posted by WHOFLUNGGUM

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher

Any omnipotent consciousness that is everywhere simply does not truly exist if GOD's presence is not in both.

In other words:

If the concepts of these faiths are devoid of truth, you just disproved God exists.

That is a very abstract way of thinking. Moses was given god's law and showed them to the children of Israel. That is God in it's simplest form.
How many ammendments to those orginal ten commandments does it take to remove you from God? To make things more complicated, throw in a Messiah that pays for our ammendments and tells us to beware of false prophets. Enter the Prophet Mohammed who's followers fashion their faith
on his teachings rather than the Old or New Testament. It is kinda like the game, 'Six degress from Kevin Bacon!" How far away from the truth does one have to wander before you are completely removed from reality? Even though a speck of truth begat the result, doesn't mean that the result is still the truth!

With that logic it is most certainly true that the darkness, and the first observer was the truth, before the light which was created twice, on two seperate days.

So is the darkness the truth?

i want to clear up something. i just spoke to a friend who's getting his masters in islamic studies (he was also born and bred muslim) and he explained the infidel/nobeliever thing to me. apparently infidel and nonbeliever only apply to polytheists and other nonmonotheists. christians and hebrews aren't infidels or unbelievers because they still believe in the same god.

Hahah...it doesn't take a masters in islam theology to know that. Christians and Jews and Sabians (infact anyone who believes in God) is known thus as a believer. An infidel (I'm sure you've all heard the term kafr) is someone who denies the truth, or works against the truth. An unbeliever is just someone who doesn't believe, be it an atheist, a polytheist etc.

Originally posted by WHOFLUNGGUM
Don't talk to me like I am stupid,

Not for nothing, but that is not what I am doing. The statement you made, its blaringly obvious as to what the answer was.

I don't care about past history, today is all that matters.

Why? In the past, jews and christians didn't get along at all. Why in the world would you say that that isn't revelant to why christians and muslims don't get along? The old saying is true, those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. There was no more fundamental difference between jews and christians in the past than there is today, the theology hasn't changed, so obviously its not the religion that keeps them apart, just like with islam and christianity, or islam and judaism. Today, they tend to not get along, because of non-religious politics, and with religion used as a justification. In the past, they got along, muslims and jews used to get along very well in fact. They still do in lots of places in the middle east. In afghanistan, there are some muslim ethnicities that claim descendancy from the lost tribes of israel, they obviously don't see a problem with islam stemming from judaism, just like christianity is claimed to stem from judaism.

, so is Pakistan but that has nothing to do with the subject of the thread.

That has everything to do with it since you are suggesting that since they don't get along then they can't be worshipping the same god.

The USA cares about the Holy Land because of it's relation to the Bible and Christian belief not just because it is a Democratic state.

Maybe thats why some ferverent christians in the US care about it, but its not why the government cares about it. Truman supported its creation because of this? That makes no sense too, since the most important christian sites are in palestinian territory.

Christians believe that the Jews are Gods chosen people

Some christians now beleive that, in the past they hated jews and blamed them for killing jesus. Both base the relation upon an interpretation of religion. Other christians just accept other people for who they are.

It's not nonsense when it is being blasted across the evening news from Maine to Nome Alaska!!

Actually, the more popular a fad is, the more likely that it is nonsense. Thats the way those sorts of things usually go. The 'muslims are the antichrist' type ideas are like the hoola hoop, something that everyone is interseted in for a bit, and will forget after its time has passed.

Iran's President calling for Israel's distruction certainly has me concerned, but I guess if I was a "thinking member" I would just say "Sticks and Stones".

A thinking person woudl think about the situation, one logan or another is irrelevant.

Jesus did not tie a bomb around his waste and blow up innocents in an attempt to enter heaven.

So? Neither did mohammed. And there have certianly been outright christian terrorist, like the IRA, or the Phalange.

the God of the Jews nor the Trinity of the Christians condones such acts.

And neither does the god of islam, so there you have it, they worship the same god. What does it matter if some cleric says 'god approves', god isn't going to be bound by that. Christian clerics said that god approves of the crusades, and people suicidally rode into battle during that. That hardly means that christianity is anti-christian.

The God of the Old Testament nor the God of the New Testament does not teach the kind of thinking that gave birth to Radical Islamist.

The god of the old testament held the sun in the sky so that the yehudis could have more time to annihlate a neighbhoring tribe. The god of the old testament ordered his fanatics to slash the legs of another tribes horses, which is a horrible thing to do to the animal. The god of the old testament told its preists to gather up all the preists of another religion, by lying to them and telling them they wanted reconcilliation, and then murdered every single one of them, and then used their temple as a toilet. The god of the old testament clearly wouldn't have a problem with ordering someone to fly a plane into a sky scraper or blow up a bus with children on it.

This radical thinking was taken from the teachings of the Prophet Mohammed, whether directly or indirectly.

Its an interpretation of scripture. *shrugs* We can't judge a holy book by what some of its followers do. if we did, we'd've to condem the bible, the torah, the rig veda, etc. They've all been used by cretins to justify and demmand murder.

Therefore, it is not of my God!

Then neiteher is the god who sent a Creeping Death to kill every single oldest son in the entire nation of egypt.

How far away from the truth does one have to wander before you are completely removed from reality?

How far from the truth of christianity is the old testament and modern judaism then? If jewish terrorists in british mandated palestine are kiling innocent people with viscious bombs in the name of god, how far is that from your god?

[edit on 10-1-2006 by Nygdan]

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher

With that logic it is most certainly true that the darkness, and the first observer was the truth, before the light which was created twice, on two seperate days.

So is the darkness the truth?

ET, how far you gonna go back? I don't know about you but I assume that before there was anything there was God in whatever shape or form he existed. God created the heavens and the earth. One should only have to look upon the wonders of his creation and believe in 'Intelligent Design'. God was as a painter with a blank canvas and painted what he desired.
Early man saw the hand of something greater in everything around them and invented gods for the Earth, Seas, Moon, Sun, etc. etc. Some even had gods for emotions such as love, jealousy, etc. So if what you say is true then because man recognizes something greater had a hand in all this that their worshipping the Sun god or Moon god is okay because the one true God created the Sun and the Moon. So they are worshipping the one true God through proxy! God created Lucifer so if one worships Lucifer are they then worshipping the one true God in proxy as well? I am not a student of the Bible but I seem to recall the one true God saying, "Thall shall not put any god above me!" (Sorry, I do not quote chapter and verse because I decided that instead of spending my time memorizing the Bible, I would try to practice what it preaches). There is also a passage that states, "In the beginning was the Word, the Word was God, the Word was made flesh and dwelt among men". It is this passage that all Christianity is based. Jesus being the Word or God! Jesus himself being God said that all things of the old testiment are now null and void and that he was the "Light and the Way and no one comes unto the father except through me". Now the Koran and the teaching of Mohammed say that Jesus was nothing more than a prophet. The Torah says the same. Hence we have the problem.
So God takes human form as Jesus and tells us that he is the light and the way which completely contradicts what is taught by the Jews and the Muslems. Jews and Muslems do not accept Jesus so they are rejecting God.
This is why I can say with impunity that the God of Mohammed is not the God of the Bible.

[edit on 10-1-2006 by WHOFLUNGGUM]

Nygdan,

When I said that I do not care about the past, what I meant was too much of what is causing the turmoil of today deals with the past. This is 2006 for gods sakes and people need to get over the past already. Take the Irish for instance the Protestant (Orangemen) still try every year to march through the Catholic neighborhoods to celebrate a battle that was fought 600yrs ago. And the idiots start a freaking riot every year when the cops stop them, go figure? Muslems calling the USA crusaders is another instance. If you go back far enough there is plenty to be ashamed of on all sides. Most of the vicious and bloody massacres throughout history were committed in the name of religion. Today it is Islamic Terrorist using their religion to justify the slaughter of innocents. Even today in Iran on fridays after prayers all the people in the Mosque, men and women, sign off with chants of 'Death to America'. This is normal accepted behavior for Iranians.
Again this is brought on by hatred and distrust based on something that happened in the past. There can be no healing, forgiveness or progress until people put the past behind them and try to build on the future. I thought that point needed to be clarified. As for a rebuttal to your post, I have decided to agree to disagree and move on.

WHOFLUNGGUM, are you even going to address what nygdan said?

all you've brought up is how one group of muslims is violent, so they can't worship the same god. that = bad logic.

what about pat robertson? he told people from dover PA to not ask god for help if there was a disaster. doesn't seem very outright violent, but considering its because they voted out schoolboard members in favor of intelligent design, its absurd.

all religions have their bad examples, get over it.

madnessinmysoul,

Sorry but I have said all I wish to say on the matter. Please read my last answer to ET. That summizes my belief and is as clear as I can be. I am not a student of Theology and cannot do the debate justice so I choose to pull out. Someone with a better grasp of Biblical History will have to further the discussion. But like I said that someone is not me! Good luck and hope that you get your answers!

Do Muslims and Christians worship the same God?
The Quran states that Muslims, Jews and Christians worship the same God (Sura 29:46).

However, Islamic tradition teaches that only Muslims will be admitted to Paradise. Though they are considered "People of the Book" - a reference to Jewish and Christian scriptures - Jews and Christians are excluded.

Muslims claim - without providing irrefutable proof - that Christians and Jews have corrupted the Scriptures, and teach that everyone must instead accept the teachings of the Quran.

When compared with the Jewish and Christian scriptures, the teachings of Quran show that Allah is not the same God worshipped by Jews and Christians.

www.apologeticsindex.org...

No Allah is a pagan god............

Nope. That is one thing I'm sure about. The criteria for entrance to Paradise is given here:

2:62
Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

Originally posted by WHOFLUNGGUM
Jews and Muslems do not accept Jesus so they are rejecting God.
This is why I can say with impunity that the God of Mohammed is not the God of the Bible.

I can understand the reasoning, but I just don't see how it doesn't apply to the jews. If god is the trinity, and the god of the jews is a single entity and jesus is not at all divine, and not even the messiah, then why is it the same god? I can see how jews and muslims and christians all worship the same god, but not how jews and christians to the exclusion of muslims.

However, Islamic tradition teaches that only Muslims will be admitted to Paradise.

No it doesn't. Muslims beleive that peopel who follow the requirements of islam will get an expedited access to the heavenly 'paradise', the heavenly garden. The People of the Book get expedited access too. Everyone, including a muslim who hasn't been pious enough, goes into the islamic hell, which is very much like the christian purgatory, where they are purged of their sins and misdeeds, and then admited into heaven. A really pious and goodly muslim might get into heaven directly, without any stay in this purgatory. A less good one might have to spend a little bit of time in there. A pagan will spend a long time there. An evil person will spend a very long time there.

No Allah is a pagan god

Nonsense. There is more evidence that the hebrew worship of yahweh was paganistic than that the arab worship of Allah is paganistic. Its a very strict iconoclastic monotheism.

Nygdan I think you hit on something.

IMHO it is starting to look like Judaism has more in common with Islam than with Christianity. As I understand it:

Judaism believes a) in one God (does not accept the notion of the trinity), b) God is the creator of all (does not accept the concept of the devil), c) humans are not born naturally good or naturally bad and have the free moral will to choose (does not accept the notion of original sin), d) prophecy ceased about 400 B.C. so that there could be no new scriptures after that time, e) afterlife punishment is not to be considered to be eternal, f) does not require that a person convert to Judaism in order to achieve salvation.

Christianity believes a) in one God, made up of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit b) there exists an evil force with an ability to create - the devil, c) accepts the concept of Original Sin and only baptism in the name of Christ can expiate, d) prophecy continued and the New Testament is also divinely inspired, e) Hell is eternal, f) Only Christians can go to heaven.

Islam believes a) in one God, b) there is a devil, c) does not accept the notion of original sin, d) Muhammad was the last prophet and the revelations communicated through him supersede the authority of both Jewish and Christian scriptures, e) Paradise will be eternal. Hell is also eternal for the unbelievers and God may pardon every sin and crime except disbelief in God, f) does not require that a person convert to Islam in order to achieve salvation.

The above differences notwithstanding, the question of whether it is the same God for all three, or for two out of three, still stands. More and more it looks like either it is the same for all three or different for all three.

actually, you got one thing wrong about islam. hell is not eternal for anyone, unless you've committed the most deplorable acts (ie hitler), because Allah is a just being that realizes that there are only a few crimes that are infinite and thus only those crimes require eternal punishment. they also believe that everyone, even the most righteous of people, will go to hell, even if only for a brief second.