Allah Is Not the Same God From the Torah or Bible?

Last week I was surprised to hear several archeologists state not only that Allah was a pre-Islamic pagan god, but also that although monotheistic, Islam in not really built on Judaism or Christianity.

Looking for a counter to the Allah was a supreme pagan deity and not the same God of Abraham argument; I found plenty of sites making similar claims. Unfortunately the rebuttals were the seemingly requisite abusive reactions to said claims.

I am still trying to clarify how Allah is the same one God worshipped by Jews and Christians.

I think most of us have swallowed the line that Islam is a religion of peace and Muslim extremist have taken the Koran’s negative verses about Jews and Christians too literally.

Nonetheless, IMHO the answer to the question of whether Allah is the same God of the Torah and the Bible, however interesting to theologians, may provide further insight into what is motivating terrorists.

Please forgive is this have been discussed before. I conducted a search and could not find.

Originally posted by BOHICA
Last week I was surprised to hear several archeologists

Who?

state not only that Allah was a pre-Islamic pagan god,

This is only a half-truth. There is no pre-islamic arab god name Allah. There are gods refered to as al-Il and the like. Hell, God amoung the israelites is sometimes called EL. And many pre-christian pagan gods were called "Lord". al-lah is supposed to be a semitic word for 'the lord' infact. Its meaningless to talk about gods that have similar names

but also that although monotheistic, Islam in not really built on Judaism or Christianity.

Thats incorrect. Its very much based on judaism, and the reliance on jesus as a prophet, but not the son of god, seems to be pretty heavy. no judaism, no islam. No christianity or at least a jesus tradition, and you'd have an altered islam.

I am still trying to clarify how Allah is the same one God worshipped by Jews and Christians.

How would this be clarified? Muslims say its the same god, therefore its the same god. How can two different religions worship the same god anyway? How can the 'god of the jews' be the triune god of teh christians? Heck, allah and yahweh are more easily viewed as the same god than jesus, the dove-spirit, and sky-father trinity of christians.

may provide further insight into what is motivating terrorists

Why? Why woudl christian terrorists care about the status of allah? In reference to muslim terrorists, why would a matter of the comparative study of religions make a difference to terrorists who beleive what they beleive irrespective of scholars.

Here is a link that really goes into detail on the reasons why Allah is not the God of the Torah or the Bible. I found it to be very interesting reading.
Perhaps it will answer some of your questions, but according to this articles conclusions, Allah is not Yahweh(God).

answering-islam.org.uk...

The pagan roots from which islam chose their God from had a God for each day of the year.

Gabriel's message to Mohammed was a message of one God.

Allah was the God of Lunar.

Allah was the moon God thousands of years before Gabriel talked with Mohammed.

Hence, the symbol of the moon.

Islam adopted the ideals of monothiesm. And chose the moon God as the God of light in the darkness.



Edited to add:

Intrestingly enough I was in Iraq near Al Nasarea (Spelling) at a base called "Tallil Air Base", which was adjacent to the Ziggeraut, a building constructed to worship the moon God. And, also the birthplace and childhood residence of the biblical Abraham.

Abraham's father was rather well to do, and profitted from making idols of pagan gods.

[edit on 29-12-2005 by Esoteric Teacher]

Originally posted by WHOFLUNGGUM
Here is a link that really goes into detail on the reasons why Allah is not the God of the Torah or the Bible.

What do you find to be the most convincing evidence from that page? I think silly arguements like this:

Yet, the Quran teaches that Allah is the author of evil:
And (the unbelievers) schemed and planned, and Allah schemed also, and the best of schemers is Allah. S. 3:54

reveals that the people that made that page are predjudiced.

ET
Allah was the God of Lunar.

There is no moon god called Allah.

And chose the moon God as the God of light in the darkness.

Mohammed specifcially rejected all the pagan gods and presented the god of abraham as the one real all powerful god. He smashed the idols in the kabba because he considered they were false.

which was adjacent to the Ziggeraut, a building constructed to worship the moon God

The ziggurat was not for the moon god. Actually, there are a number of ziggurats, and I am not familiar with any of them being decicated to a moon god.

When searching for topics, its best to use the search function, rather than review whats in the forums. Here aer some other discussion on this topic, but by all means, this new discussion can continue here. Anyone interested would probably like these other ones too though.

Allah = Hubal = Baal?

What are the connections between the god of Islam and the Arab moon god Allah?

Bush Says - Christians and Muslims Worship Same God

Nygdan, thank you for your reply. I have a few responses.

"Who?" - It was a segment of a program titled A History of God broadcast over the History Channel television network. The program was loosely based upon A History of God: The 4,000-Year Quest of Judaism, Christianity and Islam by Karen Armstrong. Among the participants were Rev. Alexander Golitzin, Priestmonk, Marquette University. Theology; Rabbi Irving Greenberg, Chairman U.S. Holocaust Memorial; Dr. Maher Hathout, Islamic Center of Southern California; Dr. E. V. Hill, Senior Pastor, Mt. Zion Baptist Church; Dr. Amina Beverly McCloud, Prof. Islamic Studies, DePaul University; Dr. Martin E. Marty, Professor, University of Chicago; Elaine Pagels, Professor of Religion, Princeton University.

I am searching for the specific person(s) who made the claim in the program.

"This is only a half-truth. There is no ..." - I am still waffling on this issue. Even after I discount the clearly anti-Islamic biased writings, there seems to be agreement there was a pre-Islamic pagan god named Allah.

However, let me see if I understand your point and please forgive me if I get it wrong the first time. Regardless of what we call God, be it Allah, Yahweh, or Jehovah, it is still the same one God. God's name is merely a human construct and should not be used to define or differentiate?

"That's incorrect. Its very much ..." - Please help me on this one. I could not find a reference to Jesus in the Koran. Can you please direct me to the right location?

"How could this be clarified?" - Okay, I agree. If Muslims say it is the same God then it is. Although I do differ with you on the relationship between Judaism and Christianity (Basically one is still waiting for the Messiah, the other claims he has already arrived).

Similar to my humble request above, would you please direct me to where Judaism and Christianity are acknowledged as worshiping the same God?

"Why? Why would christian terrorists ..." - I think if the argument that Allah is a pagan god begins to gather traction, it would provide Christian extremist a powerful (albeit suspect) justification to theocratize the war on terrorism. And I fear some leaders may be susceptible that message. Not only do I agree with your comment on Muslim terrorists and their regard for religious scholarly opinions, but also I believe the same applies to Christian extremists.

Once again, thanks for the reply.

[edit on 29-12-2005 by BOHICA]

Originally posted by Nygdan

ET
Allah was the God of Lunar.

There is no moon god called Allah.

And chose the moon God as the God of light in the darkness.

Mohammed specifcially rejected all the pagan gods and presented the god of abraham as the one real all powerful god. He smashed the idols in the kabba because he considered they were false.

which was adjacent to the Ziggeraut, a building constructed to worship the moon God

The ziggurat was not for the moon god. Actually, there are a number of ziggurats, and I am not familiar with any of them being decicated to a moon god.

Perhaps the tour guide was off with his facts. I am not aware of his degrees or background, but I was informed by him and his entourage that he had been the leading person at that particular sight for nearly 30 years, which was the ancient city of Ur.

Here is a link that supports some of the reports I have heard about:
www.bible.ca...



[edit on 29-12-2005 by Esoteric Teacher]

Originally posted by BOHICA
, there seems to be agreement there was a pre-Islamic pagan god named Allah.

There were many who had versions of this name. Indeed, the cannanite-israelite god El can be seen as one of these semitic 'al-lah' el-leh etc etc, gods. Al-lah and the various different spellings and pronunciations of it simply means 'the lord'. Thus the sky god can be called 'the lord', or the moon god, or the god of storms, or jesus, or yahweh, etc. Its not at all dissimilar to the usage of the word Baal. Baal is sometimes seen as the specific name of a god, and at other times as another word equivalent to 'lord'. So you have the divine Baal of this city, or here there's a Baal of the Sky or a river Baal.

Regardless of what we call God, be it Allah, Yahweh, or Jehovah, it is still the same one God

Think of it like this. In english we have the word 'god', like zeus is a god, odin is a god, etc. In semitic, which includes the jews and arabs and canannites and possibly the sumerians, etc, their word for a god is lah. Al is like the english word 'the'. So, christians say, "thanks to The Lord", and aren't talking about a god called thelord. Muslims say 'thanks to allah' and are saying the exct same thing. A pagan arab from the pre-islamic era might also say 'thanks to al-lah' and be thinking about whatever god he holds highest. Similarly, some christians praise yahweh, other jehovah, others God the Father, and others Jesus, but they're all saying basically thesame thing.

I could not find a reference to Jesus in the Koran. Can you please direct me to the right location?

Ah, yes, I think that they call him Esa. 'jesus' is something of a more modernized (relatively speaking) way of saying and writting Ieosus, Yeshuah, etc.
Here is an interesting explanation of it:
bama.ua.edu...
The long and the short of my understanding of it is that muslims recognize that there is divineness in what jesus said and did, but recognize him as a great, a really great infact, prophet. They don't beleive that he is half man half god, which, if you think about it, is a pretty pagan idea. They don't beleive that he is god and a seperate entitiy at the same time, or that god is broken up into a son with a physical body, the father, and a glowing spirit that looks like a dove, which, if you think about it, is pretty darned paganistic. They also don't seem to feel that the all powerful and all good creator of the universe would let what happened to jesus happen to a great prophet, and from what I understand they often suggest that during the crucifixtion, jesus was replaced, miraculously, by judas, the betrayer.

Here is a really weird page related to jesus in islam, I don't know if it representative of mainstream islam.
www.jesusthemuslim.com...

relationship between Judaism and Christianity (Basically one is still waiting for the Messiah, the other claims he has already arrived).

Thats a topic definitly worthy of its own discussion and would go beyond the bounds of this one, yes.

Thanks for the reply.

Thanks for the interesting conversation!

Similar to my humble request above, would you please direct me to where Judaism and Christianity are acknowledged as worshiping the same God?

I don't understand.

Originally posted by WHOFLUNGGUM
Here is a link that really goes into detail on the reasons why Allah is not the God of the Torah or the Bible. I found it to be very interesting reading.
Perhaps it will answer some of your questions, but according to this articles conclusions, Allah is not Yahweh(God).

answering-islam.org.uk...

that just seems to attack islam by twisting it around and calling it horrible.

it takes quran passages out of context, and then twists them to serve its own purposes.

you could make the judeochristian god sound a lot worse if you did the exact same thing.

sorry not a expert on this but, why can not we just accept allah as god, not a moon god or some other thing.

Thank you Nygdan. In reading your responses and the information in the links, I am beginning to see the logic in the use of Allah.

Originally posted by Nygdan
They don't beleive that he is half man half god, which, if you think about it, is a pretty pagan idea. They don't beleive that he is god and a seperate entitiy at the same time, or that god is broken up into a son with a physical body, the father, and a glowing spirit that looks like a dove, which, if you think about it, is pretty darned paganistic. They also don't seem to feel that the all powerful and all good creator of the universe would let what happened to jesus happen to a great prophet, and from what I understand they often suggest that during the crucifixtion, jesus was replaced, miraculously, by judas, the betrayer.

Wow, a miraculous transfer of Jesus and Judas. This belief negates the New Covenant referenced by Christians. Now this topic is most definitely for another thread.

And I never thought of the trinity as being able to be viewed as pagan by non-Catholics. This is where Christians begin to subdivide into Catholics (Roman or otherwise) and Protestants.

Thats a topic definitly worthy of its own discussion and would go beyond the bounds of this one, yes.

I agree on both counts. I'll use the search function and see if it has already been addressed.

I don't understand.

This request, similar to my previous "Jesus" request, was for help in searching the Koran for an acknowledgement that Jews and Christians pray to the same God.

One more question: Does Islam differentiate between Christians who believe in the holy trinity and those who don't?

Originally posted by BOHICA
I am still trying to clarify how Allah is the same one God worshipped by Jews and Christians.

They are not the same, and since there is only one God, allah is not a God. There are others who seek to be God but this cannot and will not be a reality ever.

Okay dbrandt.

At first I thought there existed a number of supernatural beings out there, but there was only one God. I was under the impression the god of Islam was the same supernatural being as the God of Judaism and Christianity.

Then I began find writings that stated as you did, "Allah is not the same God that Jews and Christians pray to."

After looking in the Koran, I do see that both of the covenants entered into (and seperately) by Jews and Christians is mentioned and acknowledged.

So here we are.

This is an interesting thread. You see, "Allah" just means Lord. No, not the moon God, it just means God. The bible talks of Baals and "the" Baal (that would be God, not the canaanite idol), Elohim and "the" Elohim (God), Satans (adversaries, often unclean spirits such as those of the pre-diluvian era, notice also the Greek Titan which is derived from "Shatan", Hebrew for Satan) and "The" Satan (Lucifer/Heylel). Arabic has retained this mode of speaking and Allah is just a generic word for God, however Westerners often get confused with this because Muslims don't even consider other Gods than their own (which would be Mohammed's Moon God from the Kaaba, thrown out from it after he seized power).

Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by BOHICA
I am still trying to clarify how Allah is the same one God worshipped by Jews and Christians.

They are not the same, and since there is only one God, allah is not a God. There are others who seek to be God but this cannot and will not be a reality ever.

LOL? r u seriously about Allah not been the only god? thats like saying gravity doesnt exist

Originally posted by dbrandt
They are not the same, and since there is only one God, allah is not a God.

But the god of the old testament is a singular god, not a trinity, not a father and spirit or a duality even (true, there is the yahweh-astarte 'heirogamos', but thats a different subject).

I just can't see how the god of the old testament can be jesus and the god of the koran can't also be the god of the old testament. I can see how one can beleive that jesus was there from the begining, just not mentioned, why not the same with the koran? God wouldn't be restricted by mere temporality; if the jews have a good religion from this god, then there's no reason why the muslims can't.

Simply put, God is the same for everyone - God is the uncaused cause of the universe. God is love.

Problems arise when people try to customise God to fit their agenda. If God knows everything, he knows what you're hiding, he knows what your true intentions are and he will judge you based upon your intentions. Let God shape your agenda, do not try to shape his.

Allah might be a name for God, but does it adequately describe his infinite nature - I don't think so. It's a label, so is Yahweh, it is merely a label we have created as humans to define that which we will never be able to fully understand.

However, if we choose to share our understanding, rather than divide it - we can both grow. Call it nuclear fusion, but whatever you do, don't blow anyone up over it.

Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by BOHICA
I am still trying to clarify how Allah is the same one God worshipped by Jews and Christians.

They are not the same, and since there is only one God, allah is not a God. There are others who seek to be God but this cannot and will not be a reality ever.

quick question, can't there be different names for one being? allah is supposed to be the god of abraham, the same god jesus claimed to have as a father, so they are the same god with a different label.

if i started calling my dog madonna he wouldn't become a women who had a virginal birth or the famous singer. he'd still be my dog.

Well, The OT God can perfectly well be explained in a Trinitarian theology (the en sof of rabbinic tradition for example is just the trinitarian doctrine in a slightly altered form, it's not polytheism as some people love to slander, just the logical conclusion to the idea of an all powerfull God revealing himself to creation in different forms for different tasks. Example: The Father is not known to ANY creation, the Son is simply the middle man responsible for managing it, and the son is not a human being obviously-or a creation, old Arianist heresy), the issue being discussed however is if Allah is the God of Abraham, and if it all matters in the end. Well, Allah is just a generic term- Allah can be anyone you wish him to be. Now is the Kaaba God the same of Abraham? No. This confusion tends to arise due to Islam's claim that Muslims and Mohammed are the real line of prophetic revelation, not the Jews. The scripture clearly says otherwise, and Muslims know they need to discredit this claim (or else of what authority will Islam and Muhammed be?). In fact, Muhammed was often called "Elijah" Muhammed- how could he be Elijah if he was not even of the line of Jacob? Makes no sense, so a radical revision of the Old Testament was effected by him and a core of followers right in the 7th century so he could hold his claim. This revision became the Quran, and any Muslim will tell you straight forward that they believe the Bible was "corrupted" (guess by whom?) and that the Quran is the "real" revelation. This is crucial to understanding who Muslims understand their scriptures and why the Bible has such a low standing in the Islamic world.