Student ID Card from Flight 77 found at Pentagon!

Originally posted by AgentSmith
So they found some whole bodies too - and the point is?

I thought I made that clear the first time:

quote: Originally posted by AgentSmith
Sorry for being graphic, but you are confusing 'Identifiable Remains' with bodies. We're not talking about recovering people's bodies, we're talking about matching little more than DNA samples from little pieces of flesh.
You can shut your eyes, shake your head and stamp your feet all you like

But you still havn't proven that they couldn't have found an ID card, in fact you have proven that it is more likely they did if anything.

No, I think I proved more likely they LIED about finding it there or planted it (which would have been incredibly easy to do). The inside of the Pentagon was said to be like an oven which melted metal, but yet a hijackers ID was supposedly found "in the rubble" with his name still readable. All I have to say about that is:

Originally posted by defcon5
I fail to see the discrepancy here; I said stuff would be ejected, but not out on the lawn, inside the building where the plane was breaking up.

Inside the building was said to be an oven that almost melted an entire 757. Where could a plastic ID (even if it was in a wallet) eject to inside the same building to escape the fire and heat so much that you could still read the name on the card?

The bodies in the front would most likely be smashed and cut up by the weight of the rest of the plane and the sharp metal, but would most likely escape being burned, thus something like a wallet would be undamaged. The passengers more to the rear would be exposed to the explosion and the resulting fire, and thus their belongings would be in even less ideal shape.

Maybe you should read the official story more:

-6.1 IMPACT DAMAGE
"the remains of a few individuals (the hijacking suspects), who most likely were near the front of the aircraft, were found relatively close to the aircraft’s point of impact with the building. These data suggest that the front of the aircraft disintegrated essentially upon impact but, in the process, opened up a hole allowing the trailing portions of the fuselage to pass into the building."
fire.nist.gov...

So the official story actually proves you right!!! The hijackers belongings would be in even "less ideal shape" since there were supposedly found near the entry point!

As a matter of fact why not move this whole thread to RATS to keep it out of the search engines...

Um, no.

Originally posted by Killtown
Inside the building was said to be an oven that almost melted an entire 757. Where could a plastic ID (even if it was in a wallet) eject to inside the same building to escape the fire and heat so much that you could still read the name on the card?

Years ago, a NW DC-9 wondered onto a runway at Detroit Metro Airport, a NW 727 that was on take off stuck it. Some fuel from the wing vents on the 727 spilled out on the top of the DC9 and the sparks from the metal on metal ignited that fuel. Somehow, the 727 was not significantly damaged in this incident, but the whole top of the DC-9 melted like a friggen candle. I saw that plane as I was flying into DTW right after the incident happened. If you search around the net you might find some pictures of this, I have been unable to so far though.

Now tell me, does it take an oven to melt aircraft aluminum? I guess not.

Next thing is that they stated that they found the ID relatively close to the entrance, so what is relatively close? What, 20 feet, 50, 100, under a mile? For that matter, in what direction were they thrown? Was it to the right side behind a piece of building that was still intact at the time of the explosion? All this speculation is moot, since we do not have those kinds of details.

Originally posted by Killtown
Um, no.

Um, why not?
What you don’t care if a family member came across this, that in itself tells me that I should just stop discussing this with you as your obviously young and just arguing for the sake of doing it. I bring up a valid point and you just dismiss it, that’s a very immature attitude. You don’t think that discussing what happened to someone’s remains in a plane crash is a touchy subject, that is pretty cold.

Originally posted by Killtown
No, I think I proved more likely they LIED about finding it there or planted it (which would have been incredibly easy to do). The inside of the Pentagon was said to be like an oven which melted metal, but yet a hijackers ID was supposedly found "in the rubble" with his name still readable. All I have to say about that is:

And how did you do that then?
Everything has a beginning and an end, some areas were undoubtedly very hot:



But at the same time, things lke a plastic monitor can be observed on the perimeter of the damaged area:



In this journal by someone who was there from the fire service, they talk about the relatively whole bodies and bodies that were badly damaged.

Our work area is 300 feet from the jetliner entrance hole. In the briefing we heard they are finding "bodies in bundles". Tim Walsh came back from a tour of the building, his eyes looking far beyond my face somewhere far in the distance. He toured the crime scene from one end to the other. His description of the victims made me visualize charred saguaro cactus. Tim described the people as logs. I am struck by how impersonal this mission can be, and in the same nano-second, know that they are humans killed by cowards. I grieve for the victims.........
.....

Sheared off columns, some twisted and skinned down to the skeleton core, human remains reduced to mere pieces of the whole, and the emergency workers whose faces tell the horrors of the task at hand. I feel for these people, I am driven by my desire to make a difference to these Heroes.
www.wildlandfire.com...

Don't forget some of the remains being talked about will have been people working in the building and not from the plane.

What do you think you've proven, and how? All you've managed to prove is that even I don't read and know everything. well done! You'll have a job finding anyone that knows every single intricate detail.
I was going through some witness statements the other day I came across relating to a minor car accident, and it's remarkable how little details change from person to person. Sometimes even the same person seems to have almost conflicting views as they remember different things and the brain processes the information.
However everything I said goes hand in hand with each other, the only fault I had was in not wording it very well. But who's perfect?

You say that it's not possible for them to have found an ID card, then being so desperate to try and prove me wrong actually show that they found people strapped to chairs still - proving that more survived the crash than we assumed.

As I said anyway, the hijackers were in the front of the aircraft, the fuel tanks are in the wings. There is a good chance that it would have been kept out of harms way so to speak.

And havn't you ever had a fire in one of those incinerater cans? If you just pile stuff in, you can often pull out clumps of paper which are still readable even after days of of smouldering and even though you might have had a raging inferno going on in there for hours. In the same fire that melted metal cans and stuff (I like to throw any old thing in) you can pull out large portions of documents or parts of books.

I'm still interested to see your 'proof' that they couldn't have found the ID.
It strikes me that you've become so clouded in the search for truth that you've forgotten what 'truth' is.

[edit on 2-1-2006 by AgentSmith]

All i need is exact data about stuff around pentagon, and I can put an 767 (right model?) to fly into pentagon whitout hitting any obstacles except the fence and generator in front of pentagon. That's easy to do when u know how to use a 3d modelling program and put object fly a specific path. I've already put an airplane to fly above cable spools and hit the fence and the generator, but I don't know those object's place and dimensions accurately enough.

ITs pretty simple actually. plastic unlike steel isnt a good conductor of heat. And fuel like gasoline produces a very localized burn, it doesnt spread much. If you dont beleive me put some gas on some wood and see how long it burns. Also wood is a very poor conductor aswell. You can literally pick a peice of wood out of a fire or walk over the coals. So really combining all these variables just creates hot spots and cool spots in the affected crash zone. So the id just needed to land ina cool area of the fire and it should be able to survive. This is also why if your hose burns down you can still find things

Originally posted by defcon5
Now tell me, does it take an oven to melt aircraft aluminum? I guess not.

Did I ever say it did???

Next thing is that they stated that they found the ID relatively close to the entrance, so what is relatively close? What, 20 feet, 50, 100, under a mile?

They found it "in the rubble" and since they supposedly found all 5 hijacker bodies inside the building, I'd say the rubble they supposedly found it in was the rubble from inside the building.

Um, why not?
What you don’t care if a family member came across this, that in itself tells me that I should just stop discussing this with you as your obviously young and just arguing for the sake of doing it. I bring up a valid point and you just dismiss it, that’s a very immature attitude. You don’t think that discussing what happened to someone’s remains in a plane crash is a touchy subject, that is pretty cold.

Brrrr.

.

Originally posted by AgentSmith
And how did you do that then?
Everything has a beginning and an end, some areas were undoubtedly very hot:

Who said they didn't plant it after the fires were put out? And who said they just didn't say they found it there?

But at the same time, things lke a plastic monitor can be observed on the perimeter of the damaged area:

Is that plastic monitor on the 1st floor where the plane, hijackers, and ID card were said to be?

You say that it's not possible for them to have found an ID card

More like finding one that you can still read the name one after it spent hours in a supposed inferno oven that melted a 100 ton 757!

then being so desperate to try and prove me wrong actually show that they found people strapped to chairs still - proving that more survived the crash than we assumed.

I was showing you how foolish all these Pentagon reports have been! Some say the plane "totally disentigrated". Next thing I'm told it that passengers were found still strapped in their seats! I wish they'd get their stories straight.

As I said anyway, the hijackers were in the front of the aircraft, the fuel tanks are in the wings. There is a good chance that it would have been kept out of harms way so to speak.

And the NIST report said they supposedly found them closer to the point of impact where it would have been the hottest and greatest potential to melt.

And havn't you ever had a fire in one of those incinerater cans? If you just pile stuff in, you can often pull out clumps of paper which are still readable even after days of of smouldering and even though you might have had a raging inferno going on in there for hours. In the same fire that melted metal cans and stuff (I like to throw any old thing in) you can pull out large portions of documents or parts of books.

Of course, it's just all the pics of the inside I've seen don't show any plane debris (that couldn't have been planted) and shows no paper, plastic, fabric, etc.

I'm still interested to see your 'proof' that they couldn't have found the ID.
It strikes me that you've become so clouded in the search for truth that you've forgotten what 'truth' is.

Logic dictates if they found a plastic ID still intact, we would have seen a lot of inside photos of a lot of plane debris. We don't and there is VOLUMES of evidence 9/11 was an inside job, numerous evidence of the Feds planted evidence on each hijacker group from each plane, so this highly unusual find fits the conspiracy to a "T".

.

Originally posted by Vegemite
ITs pretty simple actually. plastic unlike steel isnt a good conductor of heat. And fuel like gasoline produces a very localized burn, it doesnt spread much. If you dont beleive me put some gas on some wood and see how long it burns. Also wood is a very poor conductor aswell. You can literally pick a peice of wood out of a fire or walk over the coals. So really combining all these variables just creates hot spots and cool spots in the affected crash zone. So the id just needed to land ina cool area of the fire and it should be able to survive. This is also why if your hose burns down you can still find things

Man, your guy's explanation are getting funnier and funnier! I've seen dozens of inside pics of the Pentagon and guess what, no plane, no people, no plastic, no luggage, no firewood, nothing but building debris.

.

Originally posted by Killtown

But at the same time, things lke a plastic monitor can be observed on the perimeter of the damaged area:

Is that plastic monitor on the 1st floor where the plane, hijackers, and ID card were said to be?

And like what direction does heat travel?
I think that in like 1st grade I learned that it was up…

Originally posted by Killtown
Of course, it's just all the pics of the inside I've seen don't show any plane debris (that couldn't have been planted) and shows no paper, plastic, fabric, etc.

Well I suggest you go work on a flight line for a bit. If you think that it would be a simple task to plant something like that main gear spar, that has been positively ID’ed, you need to go and try and lift one when they want you to use it to ballast a plane. I recall that a 727 main wheel spar weighs in at over 2K. I am sure that those guys in the suits just ran out there and threw that thing on a pile of debris in the middle of all hell breaking loose.

Then we have the wheel rims which include the break assembly at around 1K each. I wonder why we did not see forklifts running all around between the fire engines dropping off that stuff...

[edit on 1/11/2006 by defcon5]

One question...Why would they plant it and release the information? if this is such a conspiracy, what is the theory behind it?

As far as your first grade "I learned all about combustion and fires", where does that fit here? If something is traveling forward, at 500+ mph, when it hit, everything would still be moving forward, and maybe the bastard who had the ID card didn't make it forward into the fireball and their ID was left. 2 100 story buildings fell, and they were finding personal items for months.

Again, why is this a conspiracy????

[edit on 11-1-2006 by esdad71]

Originally posted by esdad71
As far as your first grade "I learned all about combustion and fires", where does that fit here? If something is traveling forward, at 500+ mph, when it hit, everything would still be moving forward, and maybe the bastard who had the ID card didn't make it forward into the fireball and their ID was left. 2 100 story buildings fell, and they were finding personal items for months.

I think that the main point is that a Monitor that is sitting over an area of superheated air would be hotter then an ID that is lying on the ground under debris. Since the heat would travel up, not down.

As to the fireball, it would have started when the wings hit the building; the guy in question was in the cockpit so his body would have penetrated far in front of the fireball and before it ever occurred.

Originally posted by defcon5
I think that the main point is that a Monitor that is sitting over an area of superheated air would be hotter then an ID that is lying on the ground under debris. Since the heat would travel up, not down.

You do see the concrete slabs surrounding it right, or are you saying after the collapse, all the hot air that would have rose up and should have melted it from it's exposed side?

As to the fireball, it would have started when the wings hit the building; the guy in question was in the cockpit so his body would have penetrated far in front of the fireball and before it ever occurred.

Ug, I thought we already went over this:


-6.1 IMPACT DAMAGE
"the remains of a few individuals (the hijacking suspects), who most likely were near the front of the aircraft, were found relatively close to the aircraft’s point of impact with the building. These data suggest that the front of the aircraft disintegrated essentially upon impact but, in the process, opened up a hole allowing the trailing portions of the fuselage to pass into the building."
fire.nist.gov...

So we are supposed to believe that the fires resulting from 757 crash at Pentagon could not melt and ID card (despite vapourizing the engine), but the fires from not that much bigger 767 were able to bring down two steel structured building.

Originally posted by Janez
So we are supposed to believe that the fires resulting from 757 crash at Pentagon could not melt and ID card (despite vapourizing the engine), but the fires from not that much bigger 767 were able to bring down two steel structured building.

Sure. Makes sense to me.

And, it was THREE buildings, not 2. Well, I guess 2 were hit by airplanes, but the fire at WTC 7 was just as hot...

There are boundaries to these things, a beginning and an end. That's why you can have a fire in your living room hearth burning at few hundred degrees C and yet your carpet doesn't melt or catch fire.
What you are implying would be like saying you can't hold magnesium strip in tongs without being burnt to death because it's burning at over 1600 deg C:

cgi.ebay.com...

Magnesium burns at temperature of about 3000 degrees Fahrenheit, the temperature needed to ignite thermite, when the magnesium hits the thermite, than thermite begins to burn at about 6000 degrees Fahrenheit. It only takes a few second for thermite to burn out. After burning the iron oxide and aluminum powder they form almost pure iron, surrounded by aluminum oxide.

Killtown, Killtown... how cynical can you get?

Have you not heard that one of the hijackers' passports was found outside the WTC? There's a really helpful website that will walk you through this. On this page they deal with the ridiculous idea that it would be impossible for a passport to have survived the crash.

But if you look further down the page, you find...

The passport was recovered by NYPD Detective Yuk H. Chin from a male passerby in a business suit, about 30 years old. The passerby left before being identified, while debris was falling from WTC 2. The tower collapsed shortly afterwards. The detective then gave the passport to the FBI on 9/11.
Page 40
www.9-11commission.gov...

Oh dear. Perhaps you're right to be cynical, after all.

A few comments:

Now tell me, does it take an oven to melt aircraft aluminum?

Aluminum melts at 1100 degrees F.
Aluminum alloys melt at a slightly higher temp.


Flying a Cessna trainer is not difficult.
Takeoffs, and especially landings are where the difficulties lie.

Taxiing can be difficult because the nose wheel is connected to the rudder bellcrank via bungie cords.
That means you can be going straight, input full left rudder and you have to wait a bit for the plane to turn left.
The grip of the tire on the taxiway holds the wheel straight until the bungie cord overpowers it.

In fact, if the Cessa trainer is parked with the nose wheel at full deflection or straight you can't move it with the rudder pedals until the plane is rolling.

Getting a handle on taxiing a Cessna trainer (150-152) takes a little practice, but once you get it down it's a nice system.

The low wing Piper trainers are easy to taxi - once you get used to steering with your feet - since their nose wheel is connected directly and mechanically to the rudder bellcrank.
It has a nice positive feel.

Both planes have their positives, but I found flying the little Cessna's to be like driving a good handling 4 cylinder sports car and the low wing Piper trainers were like driving an unloaded 3/4 ton pickup.

In my opinion the lack of being able to handle the plane during taxiing, takeoff and landing is the reason the flight instructor commented on the terrorist's lack of flying skills.
No one knows it better than flight instructors, just flying along is a minimal skill that won't cut it if you want to be a pilot.

For the record, I am a licensed lightplane pilot.

That said, when I was doing the solo bit about 15 years ago I used to fly down to the Porterville airport (north of Bakersfield, California) and land there for lunch.

Many times you could hardly enter the landing pattern due to the traffic in the area.
The great majority of them light twins and they were from a flight school in Bakersfield and used Porterville to shoot touch and goes during their flight training regimen.
Porterville is a nice airport, 5500' long runway and fairly quiet until the student pilots showed up.

Interesting part was, virtually every pilot in the twins was Arabic.
At least as far as the accent went.
There were a few Japanese pilots training, but the Arabs had them outnumbered by a considerable margin.

My own flight school had a couple of Arab pilots training.
One learned the very basics and left.
The other, Bobby, went to just short of solo.
He left after he burned an engine up due to a pre-flight that missed a very low oil level.
The engine went south during his 100 mile - with instructor - flight and they had to put down at Tulare airport.

Bobby was not to be seen after that one.

I relate these little stories to point out that there are a lot of trained and half-trained Arab pilots out there.
All of which I'm sure weren't completely legitimate.

Getting back to the bit about flying the airliner, once you have the stall speeds and other important speeds down pat it isn't any big deal to fly one.
Not according to an airline co-pilot friend of mine.
As noted above, takeoffs and landings are where the pilots use their finely honed skills.

As someone mentioned, the heavy airliners go where they're pointed and don't bobble around in the wind gusts as do the lightplanes.

I don't have a problem believing the Pentagon crash was an airplane and probably a 757 as stated.

No problem either with believing that various paper pieces could be carried out in a blast of non-flaming air during an explosion.

Ever notice that lighting a pile of papers on fire will have some of the paper thermaling up and away?

There are, however, quite a few airline pilots and air traffic controllers who have problems believing that a 757 could have made the turn over the Pentagon that was executed by the radar track alleged to have been the AA plane.

Loose Change

Just a few thoughts. Could it be possible that the ID card was salvagable because it was under something and protected? What i'm thinking is that when the plane hit everything could have been thrown forward, covering (protecting) the card. I hope you know what i'm getting at

Tell me about it! I'm only average height but the Cessna was pretty cramped! It was more fun in some ways though because we could do spin recoveries and such. For some reason we couldn't do it in the Piper apparantly. I moved over to the Piper in the end anyway, as it has more room (as you say) and I just enjoyed flying it more.

I was told by my CFI that spin recoveries and stalls would be more difficult for students in a piper tomahawk because of the T-tail. I guess being a short has it's advantages, I fit fine in a Cessna 150.