Student ID Card from Flight 77 found at Pentagon!

lol. typical mechanic statement. Let the grease monkey mind his job.

I got a news flash for you, most of those grease monkeys I worked with had the same levels of cert and higher then the pilots did to be able to take those planes out on test flights if need be. Most were also private pilots. Besides this they have more knowledge of the aircraft systems then most of your pilots do anyway, which is why pilots have to be calling to talk to maintenance all the time in route.

It's not like a car that where you jump in and put it in gear. It is a very complex piece of machinery. You have to be constantly monitoring every flight system, every flight control.

Well of course their going to say that.... They're pilots.
While I truly respect pilots, you have to know that an ego is a big part of being one, and of course no one else can do what they do, according to them…

Believe me those guys spend the majority of time up there screwing around when they are not taking off, landing, or running checklists…
Ahh, the stories I could tell on this subject, but I am not going to…

(Most of them start like this: “So the flight attendant walks into the cockpit and finds….”)

You have to be monitoring every system constantly. Pitch, Roll, Yaw, flight speed altitude, the direction your going.etc etc etc.

Cough, Cough
BS!!!

If you let the bird get away from you even for a second it can have dire consquences. Too much pitch here, too much roll here and you can be found in a very difficult situaton which is hard to reverse.

Again BS, the plane is fly by wire.

If you cannot even handle a Cessna aircraft then you most certainly cannot handle a 757 and perform the manuevers that that aircraft performed on that day.

A Cessna that is not fly by wire is harder to keep a constant altitude and bearing on since it wants to roam all over the sky and has no computer to keep it on course.

Look at the radar reports. These terrorists were performing manuevers that some military planes cannot even perform.

Yeah like that 270-degree descending turn in a 3-mile radius. Once I showed that was easy to do, you guys tried to make the radius smaller then even the maps from conspiracy sites showed it to be, in the 757 thread.

I mean come on. Now I can believe some things with a stretch of the imagination but for someone who could not even fly a single engine aircraft to just jump behind the stick of a much larger and much more complex piece of machinery and perform maunevers with such precision that they did is just too much of a strech.

He did not just jump in there; he also had time in a professional flight simulator.

You will have to take up the NORAD stuff with someone familiar with military aviation, I know very little about that.

Yeah, and lets not forget the flying manuals they had with them, and the ones found in their car at the airport.

I am not a pilot, but i spent years onboard planes, working for Delta, Eastern, Northwest- We are taught many things (which i will not talk about:lol I spent most of my time with pilots, almost married one.
Its not easy to maneuver and airplane, hit a target dead on with formal training, never mind the flight simulators or cessna trainning.

I love those flight simulators. Those things are awesome

Originally posted by Huabamambo
lol. typical mechanic statement. Let the grease monkey mind his job.

I've talked with actual pilots of a 757 and other aircract and they have allassured me that it is not as easy as it looks. No aircraft can "pretty well fly itself"

Eh, yes it can. Not only can it literally fly itself using autopilot, but a lot of the normal flight is computer assisted anyway.

It's not like a car that where you jump in and put it in gear. It is a very complex piece of machinery. You have to be constantly monitoring every flight system, every flight control.

That's simply not true I'm afraid, defcon is right - your pilot buddy is letting his ego get to him and is making it seem harder than it is (not that it's easy peasy). Luckily I have mixed with pilots and have been trained by pilots that are more truthful

I don't doubt that some people might find it a little easier then others. However the terrorists on that plane were not even very good pilots. Even the flight school instructor in Florida said that they couldn't handle a Cessna aircraft.

Again, the Cessna is actually harder to fly due to no computer assistance and it's size.

You have to be monitoring every system constantly. Pitch, Roll, Yaw, flight speed, altitude, the direction your going.etc etc etc.

Again, no you don't. In fact in training I've been told not to monitor the instruments and to learn to fly without them. They will have had the same training. It's easier to fly with the instruments to an extent and it's easy to train with them using commercially available software.

If you let the bird get away from you even for a second it can have dire consquences. Too much pitch here, too much roll here and you can be found in a very difficult situaton which is hard to reverse.

Crap.

If you cannot even handle a Cessna aircraft then you most certainly cannot handle a 757 and perform the manuevers that that aircraft performed on that day. Look at the radar reports. These terrorists were performing manuevers that some military planes cannot even perform.

Again, not true.

Sorry but your arguments are wrong and demonstarte littel knowledge of the subject at hand.

DGtempe were you a flight attendant or a PSA?
Just being curious.
Send me a U2U if you don’t want to discuss it out here…

Originally posted by AgentSmith
Again, the Cessna is actually harder to fly due to no computer assistance and it's size.

Good point AgentSmith, never even thought about it but it’s true. The smaller an aircraft the more it gets pushed around by every little passing gust of wind that a large jet would just power right through.

First time I flew a Piper Tomahawk I felt like I had been lifting weights all day from trying to keep it on course. Of course a Tomahawk is less stable then a Cessna (lower wing), but I had to learn in one. I simply cannot fit inside a Cessna 150 being about 6’4 and all, my feet could not sit on the pedals without my knees being in the way of turning the yolk…



[edit on 12/27/2005 by defcon5]

I strongly urge you to Check out the radar reports for yourselves. Those terrorists performed manuevers that that aircraft simply cannot perform without breaking apart or stalling out.

Sure thing, send them to me, I will check them out.
But then what do you think did it if not a 757?

Originally posted by AgentSmith

Sorry about the slight change in topic... Does anyone else find it curious that men in suits are running around frantically gathering evidence from a 'crime' scene? Who are these guys and why are they hurriedly picking up metal pieces of something?

They were more than likely clearing an area for helicopter touchdown for wounded or military presence if sent. To me it does not seem odd that there would be something found like that. Do a qucik google search, and sometimes people walk away unscathed when the rest perish in a fiery plane crash.


In this case, they were attempting to hit the Pentagon and they were trained pilots. the other plane was meant for the White House ,which I believe we shot down over PA, I still do not know why there has never been more investigation into that. To me, that is the biggets 9/11 coverup.

Originally posted by Huabamambo
Despite what people think airliners are not very easy to fly. It's not like you jump into the pilot seat and drive it like a car.

Especially the 757. It has very complex flight control systems. And the two pilots of the 757 were huge husky men compared to the skinny Muslims.

Oddly enough it is not as complex as you assume or have been told. Others state it is very easy to fly.

www.airsafe.com...

Which is verfied by another site that states

The pilot looked at me as though I was a fool. "Eighteen months? You think it takes 18 months to learn how to fly a Boeing 757 once it's in the air?'' Far below us the clouds of northern Europe passed like a white screen. "I can teach you how to fly this plane in two minutes. At least I can teach you all you need to know in order to become a hijacker."

how to devetate the world in one easy lesson

Originally posted by defcon5
First time I flew a Piper Tomahawk I felt like I had been lifting weights all day from trying to keep it on course. Of course a Tomahawk is less stable then a Cessna (lower wing), but I had to learn in one. I simply cannot fit inside a Cessna 150 being about 6’4 and all, my feet could not sit on the pedals without my knees being in the way of turning the yolk…

Tell me about it! I'm only average height but the Cessna was pretty cramped! It was more fun in some ways though because we could do spin recoveries and such. For some reason we couldn't do it in the Piper apparantly. I moved over to the Piper in the end anyway, as it has more room (as you say) and I just enjoyed flying it more. I could also take buddies up in it too! LOL

I think one of the reasons for giving the impression that the airliners are more difficult to control then they really are (once they are flying at least) is because it's not something that we really want to have advertised. But I guess some people don't think of that. I've pointed out in the past that just because something isn't stamped up as 'SECRET' does not mean that it should be broadcast openly for no good reason - but I usually get yelled at so I won't bother.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Sorry about the slight change in topic... Does anyone else find it curious that men in suits are running around frantically gathering evidence from a 'crime' scene? Who are these guys and why are they hurriedly picking up metal pieces of something?

It's had to tell as we don't know exactl when the image was taken. To be honest I don't think they should be if it is just after it happened, but maybe someone else can shed light on when it was or why they would be doing it?

As for the turns, as the plane obviously did perform whatever manoever it did, then it clearly was capable of it - it isn't proof or evidence of remote control or anything else. We're not talking about yanking the stick back at Mach 2 and sailing into the stratosphere you know, it might have been difficult but someone plainly did it, and it would probably be easier for a hijacker in the cocpit to do it than it would be for a pro to do it by remote.
The guy was about to fly the plane into the frikkin Pentagon, somehow I don't think stressing the airframe or making anyone puke was a huge concern to him.

Some people like showing the video of the remote controlled airliner they crashed as a test. I watched a program on it (And I'm sure this was noticed by some in the video) and the reason it pitches one way and another and hits at an angle is becasue the professional flying it by remote couldn't get a feel for it and as he said himself - it is a lot harder than being in the cockpit.

[edit on 27-12-2005 by AgentSmith]

Originally posted by ashmok

During an interview earlier this week, Koch delicately handled eerie mementos of the crash found during cleanup: Whittington's battered driver's license. One granddaughters' luggage tag.
onlineathens.com...

Well I guess that proves AgentSmith wrong!:

posted on 23-12-2005 at 12:06 PM Post Number: 1879848

Uh... no.. Why would they report anything else? No-one public cares about anything else and any family/etc will be notified privately rather than splash it all over the papers and TV.

Originally posted by Killtown

Originally posted by ashmok

During an interview earlier this week, Koch delicately handled eerie mementos of the crash found during cleanup: Whittington's battered driver's license. One granddaughters' luggage tag.
onlineathens.com...

Well I guess that proves AgentSmith wrong!:

posted on 23-12-2005 at 12:06 PM Post Number: 1879848

Uh... no.. Why would they report anything else? No-one public cares about anything else and any family/etc will be notified privately rather than splash it all over the papers and TV.

Uh right? And that is how? It wasn't announced in the same way as information related to the hijacker, it looks like it was talked about during an interview. Point is, and stays, it is not made headline public news every time they find every little thing from a crash.
Bit lame dredging the thread up again like that in a vain attempt ot make me look 'wrong', and failing, isn't it?
You should stop, take a step back and look at your 'case', if you find you have to resort to such petty tactics.

Argumentum ad hóminem

[edit on 1-1-2006 by AgentSmith]

Originally posted by Huabamambo
I'm not even aware of any passenger remains surviving the crash because of this vapourization hocus pocus yet alone ATM and student cards.

The gov't claims that 63 out of the 64 passengers were recovered if you can believe that!

See here: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Sorry for being graphic, but you are confusing 'Identifiable Remains' with bodies. We're not talking about recovering people's bodies, we're talking about matching little more than DNA samples from little pieces of flesh.
You can shut your eyes, shake your head and stamp your feet all you like - but it doesn't make common sense disappear for everyone else.
Man it's terrible that so many people are so desperate for there to be something wrong, that they refuse to engage the brain in case common sense throws aspects of the case out of the window. There are enough things to question without resorting to practically making things up.

Originally posted by defcon5
Well let’s see…
As an aircraft disintegrates some parts of it, and things in it, are going to be ejected and not subjected to the fire and explosion. Same way things are ejected from a car in a crash.

The gov't claims the hijackers bodies were recovered inside the Pentagon. They say Moqed's Student ID was recoverd "in the rubble." Doesn't sound like it was ejected outside of the building. You guys need to get your stories straight.

Originally posted by Killtown
The gov't claims the hijackers bodies were recovered inside the Pentagon. They say Moqed's Student ID was recoverd "in the rubble." Doesn't sound like it was ejected outside of the building. You guys need to get your stories straight.

We need to get our stories straight? You guys that think it wasn't the plane can't even get you're own theories to follow a common path, other than arguing anything which is put forward in an official capacity - And that's why people will always rule over you.
Geez you say you want a better world, but I bet you havn't even thought that far ahead, you're all to hellbent on destroying the one we have to even think about it I expect.
You talk about the ignorance, corruoption, etc of the existing Government but none of us are any better ourselves. I've seen plenty of people on here that say they want to fight the system for a better world, but they're even more aggressive, underhanded and insane than what they want to 'protect' the world from in the first place.
Different people - same outcome.
You wouldn't know 'enlightenment' if someone shone a torch in your face.

On the matter of the card, as the terrorists were in the cockpit which is in front of the fuel tanks (the wings), then it would make sense for it to have been propelled forward out of harms way. A small light object had better chance of being carried around undamaged than a larger, heavier object.

[edit on 1-1-2006 by AgentSmith]

Originally posted by AgentSmith
Sorry for being graphic, but you are confusing 'Identifiable Remains' with bodies. We're not talking about recovering people's bodies, we're talking about matching little more than DNA samples from little pieces of flesh.
You can shut your eyes, shake your head and stamp your feet all you like

_______________________________________________
► Pentagon searchers encounter grisly scenes

"On Tuesday, Army Staff Sgt. Mark Williams witnessed a combat zone for the first time in his 11 years of service. He never imagined it would be inside the Pentagon. One of the first recovery personnel to enter the crippled headquarters building after a hijacked Boeing 757 smashed into it, the urban search-and-rescue specialist found a gruesome sight. "If anyone has ever burned a pot roast, they'll know what the victims looked like," Williams, 30, said Thursday after another 12-hour shift of searching for 190 bodies — those of 126 missing Pentagon personnel and the 64 aboard the doomed jetliner.

When Williams discovered the scorched bodies of several airline passengers, they were still strapped into their seats. The stench of charred flesh overwhelmed him.

As of Thursday morning, search teams had recovered 70 bodies. The remains were being carried by helicopter to Dover Air Force Base in Delaware to be identified." -USA Today (09/13/01)
________________________________________


Also officials mapped were they found the passengers/hijackers BODIES:


fire.nist.gov...


Now I don't believe any passengers bodies were recovered there, but "man it's terrible that so many people are so desperate for there to be something wrong, that they refuse to engage the brain in case common sense throws aspects of the case out of the window. There are enough things to question without resorting to practically making things up."

So they found some whole bodies too - and the point is?
That greek flight disintegrated when it crashed and you didn't see any bodies in the mainstream pictures, but i saw some of a couple of whole bodies. All you appear to be doing is trying to 'catch me out', which is probably not that hard as I don't read up on the subject all day every day. But you still havn't proven that they couldn't have found an ID card, in fact you have proven that it is more likely they did if anything.. Well done *claps*.

[edit on 1-1-2006 by AgentSmith]

I fail to see the discrepancy here; I said stuff would be ejected, but not out on the lawn, inside the building where the plane was breaking up. Your map above goes exactly along with what I am stating. As to AgentSmith I am sure he is thinking along the same lines, some bodies are going to be more intact then others. They are not all going to be in the exact same type of shape as you keep trying to pigeon hole us into thinking. The bodies in the front would most likely be smashed and cut up by the weight of the rest of the plane and the sharp metal, but would most likely escape being burned, thus something like a wallet would be undamaged. The passengers more to the rear would be exposed to the explosion and the resulting fire, and thus their belongings would be in even less ideal shape.

My god think, clear your mind of the conspiracy crap for a few seconds, and then think about the physics involved and the way this would break up.

I think that is enough about the bodies, take this discussion elsewhere as I would truly feel bad for any family members that had to read through any of this stuff. I know I would be upset if I were one of them, this whole topic crosses over the line of decency IMHO.

In the airlines, families that go through something like this are handled with kit gloves because it’s a terrible thing to even think about how violent that type of death is. That is why they bring in pastors and psychologists before gathering the family to tell them what happened. They are purposely not told certain details for their own protection, and I am sure details are withheld here for the same reasons. It is a death with little or no closure, their loved one simply left and never come back, usually there are not many identifiable remains to return, and all you would do is relive what happened in your imagination repeatedly. These poor families, because of this particular situation, have to read and relive this crap over and over. I cannot imagine how horrific that must be.

This is the last I am going to openly discuss questions on what happened to the passengers here, if you want to ask me something, then U2U me about that topic. If you want to talk about the plane, that is ok, but lets keep it to the plane and not the bodies.

As a matter of fact why not move this whole thread to RATS to keep it out of the search engines...

[edit on 1/1/2006 by defcon5]