Looming Transit Strike Could Cripple New York City

I would hope that every person that is effected by this in a serious way (eg. My apartment building caught on fire and the emergency crews could not get through, since they were stuck in traffic), sues the pants off the MTA as well as the leader of their union personally…

Thier leader should be charged with blackmail…



[edit on 12/21/2005 by defcon5]

How is this not peaceful?
Do you see strikers running riot through the streets?
Strikers beating those who dare to cross the picket line?
How about sabotage of the transit system so that the MTA couldn't run it even if they could get enough people to come to work?
Please this is nothing compared to the labor pains of the past.

Oh and by the way anyone who says that this is just about worker greed really doesn't understand the issue. The sticking point isn't that they're not getting paid enough it's that the MTA want's them to sell out future transit workers because "times are tough" (yet somehow we still wound up with a budget surplus). Sell out the workers of the future and maybe we won't come after you today is the basic message the MTA is giving it's workers. Its amazing how quickly some of you are to cry out against the evils of appeasement when applied to overseas issues yet so quick to kowtow here at home. Do you really think the MTA will stop asking for concessions from it's workers? What's to stop them from saying we need to cutback even more when the next round of contract negotiations come up? Whats to stop them from raising the retirement age to 72 next time around?

Times have always been tough and management has always cried poverty in the face of worker demands. If times are so tough how come you don't see MTA management offering to take a paycut? The MTA presidents can afford to offer themselves minimum 20%raises, on top of the 13,000 dollars per annum they recieve to their pension plan, on top of the 48.000 dollar a year housing allowance 6 of the seven presidents recieve yet now when the workers want fair share all of a sudden there's not enough to go around, Hmm I wonder why?

How dare those lazy workers expect their wages to keep up with inflation!
How dare those lazy workers stick up for the rights of future workers!
How dare those lazy workers expect to be able to retire at a decent age!
How dare those lazy workers expect to be treated with the respect they deserve!

please...

I can take a little inconvenience in the name of labor solidarity.

Originally posted by boogyman
How dare those lazy workers expect their wages to keep up with inflation!

$54,000? I wish someone would pay me that much for a job that I didn't have to attend collage for. This is a good deal more than most Americans make.

How dare those lazy workers stick up for the rights of future workers!

Future workers? Hmmmm. Ask all those workers in the our Steel industry and Automobile industry about that one. Steel industry is already gone and Automobile industry is going fast. There won't be many future workers in those industries to ask about about how well the Unions protected their rights. If you can actually find any workers in those industries, ask them about how the Unions have priced labor so high that companies prefer to send it overseas now.

How dare those lazy workers expect to be able to retire at a decent age!

Gee. How lucky to be able to retire at all. Most Americans under 40 today will never get to do that at any age.

How dare those lazy workers expect to be treated with the respect they deserve!

Respect? You think this is the way to earn it? If you thought these people were afforded little respect before, just wait.

please...

Yes, please go back and do the friggin job you get paid for, like the rest of us have to.

Oh, yeah, and ask anyone about the sorry quality of products or services provided by a work force where seniority is more important than merit.

Unions

We are not talking about the days of labor sweat shops and company stores here.
They make above the average, and the union caught wind of the $1 Billion profit and like any criminal organization wants their cut. They are not getting it and are therefore throwing a hissy fit, and holding the city hostage. That is what this is about, and you bet once that they get what they want for the “little guy”, their union fees are going to go up 10% per year as well.

I got news for you I used to be a Union Shop Stewart during my airport days, and they made much less then MTA workers and had to work under much harder conditions while the company and airlines made a fortune, so don’t say I am being biased. I know how these jokers work 9 times in 10…

These guys are breaking the law, they are holding the town hostage, and blackmailing the government. If someone does not go to jail to end this, NY will be in the same boat once this contract ends…

You don’t negotiate with terrorists and hostage takers for a reason…

Take your picket sign somewhere else, I don’t think anyone here or in NY sympathizes with you.

Edit to add:

As to your retirement, I work in the medical field, and about 99% of those folks, with collage degrees that save peoples lives for a living, and work way understaffed, don’t get one while making simular or less money. Most of the airline contractor guys that I worked with that are responsible for thousands of lives a day will never see one either, and they make less money. Why should a bunch of cry baby button pushing subway drivers get one? Guys that will watch a mugging and lock themselves in their cab rather then intercede to help anyone...

X

Hmm maybe if American companies had to hire Americans outsourcing wouldnt be an issue? Maybe if business executives weren't offering themselves bonus after bonus regardless of job performance they would be able to afford paying decent wages to workers? Maybe if the American automotive industry had focused on innovation instead of building bigger and bigger cars that offer no improvement over the previous models they might not be on the way out? It couldn't be that though it's always the lazy workers fault darn those lazy workers and their unions...

Gee. How lucky to be able to retire at all. Most Americans under 40 today will never get to do that at any age.

Wow I wonder why that is.
Could it because that because for a time most Americans bought into the Big Business propaganda that unions are evil and offer no benefit to society? Maybe if workers actually stood up for themselves we wouldn't be in this situation...

Respect? You think this is the way to earn it? If you thought these people were afforded little respect before, just wait.

Yes because everyone loves an Uncle Tom ever so eager to please while tipping his cap to his betters. Oh if only those darned workers would accept their place in society. After all only those with a college degrees deserve to be able to support their families with a single paycheck.

Oh, yeah, and ask anyone about the sorry quality of products or services provided by a work force where seniority is more important than merit.

I'm sorry I can barely hear you over all the people complaining about the shoddy quality of products built in the third world non-union sweatshops that those saintly businessmen that can do no wrong would rather outsource too then pay a decent wage. Hmm products made by underpayed overworked demoralized workers in unhealthy conditions versus products made by well payed motivated workers in safe work environments I wonder which would be of better quality?

Unions

I suppose you'd rather be living during the early days of the industrial revolution when you could be fired for getting injured on the job and the employers had complete and total say over the lives of their employees. Back in the good old days when thugs in the employ of the business owners silenced any troublemakers through beatings and murder. Might I suggest moving to somewhere in the third world then? Perhaps China would be closer to your liking?

Originally posted by boogyman
Hmm maybe if American companies had to hire Americans outsourcing wouldnt be an issue?

Maybe if the American automotive industry had focused on innovation instead of building bigger and bigger cars that offer no improvement over the previous models they might not be on the way out?

This has exactly what to do with this thread?

Allow me to tell you the story of eastern airlines:

Bear with me a sec and this will make sense…
A normal airline ramp has 1 lead agent, 4 ramp agents, and 1 fueler per flight. They have a 1 freight tugger and 1 mail runner and 1 supervisor per shift. Ramp agents, fuelers, tuggers, and mail runners back then made about $20k with only medical benifits…

Eastern used to have 1 bag tugger at the plane, 1 freight tugger per flight, 1 tugger to run to the bag well, one tugger in the bag well, 10 bag well guys, 8 ramp agents per flight, 1 fueler per flight, 1 lead agent per flight, 4 mail runners per flight line, and 2 supervisors. They all made around $50K a year plus full benefits (retirement, flight, medical)

Gee I wonder why they all finally lost their jobs when their union went on strike and asked for more?

Edit to add: Pan Am had a similar setup/union as eastern, gee I wonder how many flights they run now?
Oh that’s right they went out of business also…
As a matter of fact I have Posters from the station managers office I bought from their auction hanging on my office walls.


[edit on 12/21/2005 by defcon5]

Originally posted by boogyman
Hmm maybe if American companies had to hire Americans outsourcing wouldnt be an issue?

And maybe if we were all mind-numbed socialist robots with no need to compete in a free market we wouldn't have to care.

Wow I wonder why that is.
Could it because that because for a time most Americans bought into the Big Business propaganda that unions are evil and offer no benefit to society? Maybe if workers actually stood up for themselves we wouldn't be in this situation...

No, it's because Unions sold the American worker on the idea that they are entitiled to have a job for life and they don't have to compete, just bitch loud enough and disrupt the business that employs them to get more and more, regardless of if they deserve it or not. Maybe if the workers didn't employ orgainized crime to do the thinking for them and set up an automatic adversarial relationship with the ccompanies that employ them, they wouldn't be in this situation.

Yes because everyone loves an Uncle Tom ever so eager to please while tipping his cap to his betters. Oh if only those darned workers would accept their place in society. After all only those with a college degrees deserve to be able to support their families with a single paycheck.

Don't think I even need to reply to that one. It speaks for itself.

I'm sorry I can barely hear you over all the people complaining about the shoddy quality of products built in the third world non-union sweatshops that those saintly businessmen that can do no wrong would rather outsource too then pay a decent wage. Hmm products made by underpayed overworked demoralized workers in unhealthy conditions versus products made by well payed motivated workers in safe work environments I wonder which would be of better quality?

.... and this is why Toyota is about to surpass GM as the biggest auto maker, with the highest quality product, a good portion of which are built here in the US by non-Union workers, and why the US Taxpayer is going to have to pick up the tab on all the GM Pensions and your well payed motivation.

I suppose you'd rather be living during the early days of the industrial revolution when you could be fired for getting injured on the job and the employers had complete and total say over the lives of their employees. Back in the good old days when thugs in the employ of the business owners silenced any troublemakers through beatings and murder. Might I suggest moving to somewhere in the third world then? Perhaps China would be closer to your liking?

No, thanks, I'm fine right here where I was able to self-educate myself into a better industry, succeed or fail on my own merits, and don't need to join a group of thugs to bully my employer, who I'm quite greatful to for giving me a job and who I actually want to profit from the labor they pay me fairly well for.

We are not talking about the days of labor sweat shops here.

Yeah your right and you can thank the generations of Union workers who went on strike so you could have the rights you have as a worker now for that.

They make above the average, and the union caught wind of the $1 Billion profit and like any criminal organization wants their cut. They are not getting it and are therefore throwing a hissy fit, and holding the city hostage. That is what this is about, and you bet once that they get what they want for the “little guy”, their union fees are going to go up 10% as well.

You mean as opposed to the corrupt bosses who took their cut and then begged poverty when everyone elses turn rolled around?

I got news for you I used to be a Union Shop Stewart during my airport days, and they made much less then MTA workers and had to work under much harder conditions while the company and airlines made a fortune, so don’t say I am being biased. I know how these jokers work 9 times in 10…

You do realize there's no comparison between the working conditions of airport employees and transit employees right? I mean talk about apples and oranges. By the way what exactly are these "much harsher conditions" your refering to?

Take your picket sign somewhere else, I don’t think anyone here or in NY sympathizes with you.

Really? I actually live in New York and I know plenty of people who sympathize with the transit workers. By the way I don't need any sympathy I don't work for the MTA.

As to your retirement, I work in the medical field, and about 99% of those folks, with collage degrees that save peoples lives for a living, and work way understaffed, don’t get one while making simular or less money. Most of the airline contractor guys that I worked with that are responsible for thousands of lives a day will never see one either, and they make less money. Why should a bunch of cry baby button pushing subway drivers get one? Guys that will watch a mugging and lock themselves in their cab rather then intercede to help anyone...

Yes because transit workers never work understaffed or are responsible for hundreds of thousands of lives everyday. Oh and I love how you just completely minimalize the jobs of those in the TWU "button pushers" huh? Yeah because everyone knows maintaining a round the clock transit system with little to no margin for error is simply a matter of pushing a button. I mean all you have to do is push a button to inspect and repair track and signals all you have to do is push a button to make sure trains run on schedule and don't collide with each other or derail. Its not like lives hang in the balance or anything...

Oh and why exactly is a man with a degree who's willing to let a patient die because they can't afford medical care worthy of respect of any kind. Sure they save live's for a living only if you can afford it though. See how much fun it is to generalize and minimalize the contributions of your fellow man?

By the way what exactly are these "much harsher conditions" your refering to?

The Tarmac is very dangerous period. Injuries happen every other week at my uncles work at Pearson International Airport, he got hurt on the Tarmac twice due to black ice(Canada and all)

Inside it's pretty safe though.

I tend to agree with you generally though, TTC workers(Transit Authority in Toronto) have been in similiar predicaments, though only striking once in my memory for 2 business days, they made their point.

[edit on 21-12-2005 by sardion2000]

And maybe if we were all mind-numbed socialist robots with no need to compete in a free market we wouldn't have to care.

Your supporting a system where a worker can be exploited to work long hours relentlessly for lowpay because the market dictates this and you have the audacity to talk about how I think like a mind-numbed robot?

Maybe if the workers didn't employ orgainized crime to do the thinking for them and set up an automatic adversarial relationship with the ccompanies that employ them, they wouldn't be in this situation.

Yes because every one knows organized crime only interferes with company business practices through unions. I mean it's not like white collar organized crime has ever manipulated company policy for their own gain. On one hand you say there should be no adversarial relationship between employers and employees yet on the other hand you talk about how the employer doesn't owe the employee anything. Seems like an adversarial relationship to me.

Don't think I even need to reply to that one. It speaks for itself.

Your right you've already established yourself as an elitist with a superiority complex.

... and this is why Toyota is about to surpass GM as the biggest auto maker, with the highest quality product, a good portion of which are built here in the US by non-Union workers, and why the US Taxpayer is going to have to pick up the tab on all the GM Pensions and your well payed motivation.

Yes and this explains why Japan's economy is suffering through a ten year recession because Japanese business practices are so much more superior to American. Hmm I wonder Japan's suicide rate (one of the highest in the world) have anything connection to their business practices. Probably not though every one knows nothing soothes the human spirit like working in a free market paradise.

No, thanks, I'm fine right here where I was able to self-educate myself into a better industry, succeed or fail on my own merits, and don't need to join a group of thugs to bully my employer, who I'm quite greatful to for giving me a job and who I actually want to profit from the labor they pay me fairly well for.

Why not? You could do all those thing in the third world. In fact its perfect for that possibly even superior. There's no public schooling so you can "self-educate" to your hearts content. There's no social safety nets or quotas so you'll definitely be able to succeed or fail on your own merits and I'm certain you can be greatful to your sweatshop employer for paying a "fair wage". You'll probably be too busy avoiding the thugs your employer hired to bully people into line too worry about joining a "group of thugs to bully my employer" so you won't have to worry about that either. It's a free market paradise! You can be a rugged individualist to your heart's content while living some slum hellhole.

Originally posted by boogyman
Yeah your right and you can thank the generations of Union workers who went on strike so you could have the rights you have as a worker now for that.

Yep, then organized crime took over and greed and sloth…

Originally posted by boogyman
You mean as opposed to the corrupt bosses who took their cut and then begged poverty when everyone elses turn rolled around?

Union leaders could care less about their guys other then the dues and their cut. I have personally called my old union reps to see them sell my crew up the river, shake hands with the boss them take him golfing while leaving me to explain to my crew why our work load just got tripled. I will be happy to send you my old union info if you want to check this out.

Originally posted by boogyman
You do realize there's no comparison between the working conditions of airport employees and transit employees right? I mean talk about apples and oranges. By the way what exactly are these "much harsher conditions" your refering to?

Well lets see:
1) Work out side with no protection.
2) Work in the rain.
3) Work in the snow.
4) Work in the wind.
5) Work in the 100 Degree sun plus 300 degree APU exhaust.
6) Work during a hurricane or tropical storm in the open. (job is not done till the planes are out of harms way)
7) Suck Jet-A gas fumes all day.
8) Suck APU exhaust all day.
9) Suck vehicle exhaust all day.
10) Stack 30 Lbs bags into a 3 foot tall bin all day in heat and cold while kneeling, and sometimes freight weighing hundreds of pounds.
11) Get no breaks between flights.
12) Often do not get to eat.
13) Often go without water.
14) Dance around running engines that can suck them in and chop them to pieces, or burn and toss them head over heals hundreds of feet.
15) Work around high pressure, overheated tires that can blow and remove a mans head/limbs.
16) Work around electrical dangers such as lighting and static electricity.
17) Work on bomb threat aircraft.
18) Work around equipment that can kill or maim in seconds.

That just names a few dangers on the flight line…

I have seen guys get their faces smashed, both legs broken, Skin removed, burnt, arms broken, pass out from exposure to the elements, (though not on my flights ) and still do a hell of a great job with a great safety record. What does the MTA workers have to put up with?

Your right apples and oranges, MTA guys sit on the over sized tails all day and turn wheels and push buttons and levers…

Originally posted by boogyman
Really? I actually live in New York and I know plenty of people who sympathize with the transit workers. By the way I don't need any sympathy I don't work for the MTA.

Yeah all the guys that do work for them, you are obviously in tight with that group.
Gee what is so hard or unfair about their treatment?
Please tell me about their plight for softer chairs and such…

Originally posted by boogyman
Oh and I love how you just completely minimalize the jobs of those in the TWU "button pushers" huh? Yeah because everyone knows maintaining a round the clock transit system with little to no margin for error is simply a matter of pushing a button.

Last time I checked there is just one lever to push in an electric train, no obstacles, and the cross traffic is computer handled. Stop trying to pass yourselves off as airline pilots and ATC controllers. It’s about as tough as running a big electric train set, my friends 3 year old can do it.

Originally posted by boogyman
I mean all you have to do is push a button to inspect and repair track and signals all you have to do is push a button to make sure trains run on schedule and don't collide with each other or derail.

A computer switches tracks, and lets them know if a line breaks. At their speed in the dark they could not see a track break in time to stop anyway. Its dealt with by machine.

Originally posted by boogyman
Oh and why exactly is a man with a degree who's willing to let a patient die because they can't afford medical care worthy of respect of any kind. Sure they save live's for a living only if you can afford it though.

BS patients are always given life saving treatment, if they can afford it or not. Unless they’re DNR. A doctor does not have to do non-essential treatment if they choose not too, but most will, unless cosmetic.



[edit on 12/21/2005 by defcon5]

Originally posted by sardion2000

By the way what exactly are these "much harsher conditions" your refering to?

The Tarmac is very dangerous period. Injuries happen every other week at my uncles work at Pearson International Airport, he got hurt on the Tarmac twice due to black ice(Canada and all)

Inside it's pretty safe though.

I tend to agree with you generally though, TTC workers(Transit Authority in Toronto) have been in similiar predicaments, though only striking once in my memory for 2 business days, they made their point.

[edit on 21-12-2005 by sardion2000]

Oh I agree the tarmac is definetly a dangerous place and tarmac workers get nothing but respect from me ( I don't believe in belittling other people's jobs especially if I don't fully comprehend what they entail). I just disagree that it's so much more dangerous then the conditions track workers have to deal with on a daily basis.

But before I go I'd just like to point out that the New york subway's signal system is not automated and that it relies on the guys in the control room keeping track of trains on the signal board. Once again so much more complicated then just "pushing a button".

Originally posted by boogyman
Oh I agree the tarmac is definetly a dangerous place and tarmac workers get nothing but respect from me ( I don't believe in belittling other people's jobs especially if I don't fully comprehend what they entail). I just disagree that it's so much more dangerous then the conditions track workers have to deal with on a daily basis.

I was just there and got out prior to the strike. I saw what they do first hand. If they run out and fight fires between trains or something please enlighten me. I would like to know what is so tough or dangerous about this job…

On my danger scale it is about a 3 since they could possibly get mugged if they cannot squeeze their doughnut fed tail back into their little room and lock the door before the bad guy gets them…

Originally posted by boogyman
But before I go I'd just like to point out that the New york subway's signal system is not automated and that it relies on the guys in the control room keeping track of trains on the signal board. Once again so much more complicated then just "pushing a button".

Yeah the union most likely blocked it from being automated since it would cost them 10 guys dues per month. You could train a monkey to do this job, light comes on, you push a button, and get a doughnut… Like Homer Simpson.

Originally posted by boogyman
I don't believe in belittling other people's jobs especially if I don't fully comprehend what they entail

And if you did know what it entailed and it was a far cry from rocket science but they wanted to act like it was so they could make $80K per year doing a job that was worth about $20K?

They are simply filling the pockets of organized crime in the long run period…
That is what this is about in truth folks. If the $1 billion had not been reported would this be going on? The Union has to have their cut, period that is what this is about. Not mistreatment of MTA workers…



[edit on 12/21/2005 by defcon5]

Originally posted by boogyman
Why not? You could do all those thing in the third world. In fact its perfect for that possibly even superior. There's no public schooling so you can "self-educate" to your hearts content. There's no social safety nets or quotas so you'll definitely be able to succeed or fail on your own merits and I'm certain you can be greatful to your sweatshop employer for paying a "fair wage". You'll probably be too busy avoiding the thugs your employer hired to bully people into line too worry about joining a "group of thugs to bully my employer" so you won't have to worry about that either. It's a free market paradise! You can be a rugged individualist to your heart's content while living some slum hellhole.

Well, we could argue about all the rest for as long as you want, but don't dare suggest to me that I leave my country, which I love and which I ask nothing from but the opportunity to do my best and make my own way.

I have no family to help me. I don't have a pension coming or an inherited Union membership to provide me a cushy job. I have never collected unemployment insurance, even when I was entitled to it. I don't have health insurance and I've never asked anyone to foot the bill for me. I dropped out of High School in the 10th grade and spent about 3 hours getting a GED a week later. I went to collage and paid for it myself by working. I roughed it for 7 years at 8000 ft in a tent on the side of a mountain in Colorado in with no power, no running water, and no heat that I didn't first chop with an axe, conditions that probably would beat you into the ground unless you are a lot more self-reliant than your stated beliefs about the American work ethic would indicate. I've started over from nothing more than once, and not whined about it.

You call me an elitist with a superiority complex. If so I've friggin earned it the hard way, so excuse me if I don't have much sympathy for union extortionists and those who feel entitled to take and take and keep on taking. Pedal your Class Warfare somewhere else. Your attitude and assumptions on things about which you have no clue disgusts me.


[edit on 21-12-2005 by Ambient Sound]

Just a few average salary levels for comparison:

Average sallerys in 2005

Registerd Nurse NY: $54,721
Police officer NY: $53,643
Fire fighter NY: $44,371
NY School Bus Driver: $20,455
Private First Class US Army: $14,117


So why do they deserve to make so much?


[edit on 12/21/2005 by defcon5]

Originally posted by defcon5
I would hope that every person that is effected by this in a serious way (eg. My apartment building caught on fire and the emergency crews could not get through, since they were stuck in traffic), sues the pants off the MTA as well as the leader of their union personally…

Thier leader should be charged with blackmail…



[edit on 12/21/2005 by defcon5]

Do you not know that in th City of New York, if an emergency vehicle is responding to anything, they can do whatever it takes to get to said call. For example, on 9-11; fire engines, ladder trucks, rescue squads, what have you, got stuck in traffic because of where the people had stopped right in the middle of the road. This is turn caused major backup which caused the responding units to literally push the cars in front of them onto the sidewalk.

Ok, but considering that then they might be responding to a dozen more calls, would they? Honestly?

They do it only when they have to. And that is when they can't move anywhere because traffic isn't moving for some reason.