What is the big deal with denying the Holocaust?

I guess it's because of a form of anti semitism/racism and propoganda in a way. And it's the denial of all that suffering that happened, and can cause emotional damage to those people who are still alive that were hurt during it?

Originally posted by resistor
How about we allow for a ‘free marketplace of ideas’, where people can present their positions, contradict others, exchange information and get all sides of an issue before they jump to any conclusions.

That's just not possible, to the degree you'd like, because the agendas of powerful groups get in the way. No groups are more powerful than the jewish or pro-Israel lobbies. I'm no holocause denier but it is a measure of how much clout these groups have that a person can be JAILED for denying some of the things that are the basis of their power. Just think, all you have to do is just SAY SOMETHING which displeases them, and you could end up in prison!

Originally posted by somethingsomething
And it's the denial of all that suffering that happened, and can cause emotional damage to those people who are still alive that were hurt during it?

You can deny all the suffering you want, and attack or ridicule anybody or any group you want, PROVIDED the targeted group is not jewish or pro-Israel. What if somebody denied that millions of Armenians died in WWI or that millions of Russians died in WWII? Do you think he'd be in LEGAL trouble? Of course not, because such groups don't have 2% as much clout as the pro-Isarel bunch.

To sum it all up then, we have two opinions on the gasings of jews;

1. today the accepted wiew wich say;
* jews were hunted down by nazi's and killed in gas chambers.
* pictures of bones in a crematorium and of people starved to death proves this.
* many jews have testified that there were gas chambers.
I keep this short as all know this version.

2. the other wiew wich say (longer as many do not know this);
* jews and nazists were allied in the 1930's, they were not enemies. This is supported by the fact that when all other political parties and newspapers were forbidden, the jewish ones were not.
* the pictures of bones in a crematorium were arranged by the photographer and thus not useful as evidence.
* many jews have testified that there were no gas chambers. These withnesses tell us there were hardships, sicnesses and deaths, but nothing out of the ordinary.
* both the UK and US governments investigated the gas chambers rumors when the war in Europe was over and turned up empty; there were no gas chambers.
* there are corporates and individuals who earn millions of dollars on the Holocaust gas chamber teory in USA alone.
* that jews were singled out to be gassed is an extraordinary claim. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, like there actually being gas chambers and bones of 6 million jews. Both are missing.
* there were a jewish group that claimed that 6 million jews had died. These jews used a system that did not take into account that many jews moved out of the war zones. To this group a missing jew = a dead one. The Israeli government used this 6 million claim when they in the 1950's demanded reparations from Germany. 5000 mark X 6 million is of course alot more money than 5000 mark X the 893 000 who actually died.
Noone have asked where the missing jews of Europe are. The answer is that they moved to USA. Some moved to Israel and UK, but most wanted to go to USA.

I belong to group 2 because of all the evidence, reasons and logic of the 'revisionist' wiew. Group 1 wiew have no evidence to back it up, all it has is forgeries and repetitions.

(I'm not able to edit my previous post so I make this new post.)

Chartered accountants check that companies do not swindle tax for the government, and is in my country called revisor. That word has the same meaning as the word revisionist, like revisionist historican Ernst Zundel. Revisionists check if our history books are correct, and if not, correct them. When they study WWII they found big holes when it comes to jews claim that they were being gassed. That is why a corporate interest group is lobbying to have the Holocaust denial laws accepted in all countries, because then they can arrest the historicans so as to prevent them from correcting the errors in our history books.

Look for yourself in the revisionist webpages and zundelsite and see for yourselves. There's no nazi propaganda anywhere. They are historicans after all, not nazists.

My other treads about this;
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

They say the greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was to convince people he didn't exist.

To deny that the evil happened, is ignorance or evil itself

Plus it is a slap in the face to the survivors and their families. How would you like to have your family killed and tortured just because of who you are.

PS you want some proof, documents or pictures, here...

www.holocaustsurvivors.org...

Plus the only reason they deny the holocaust is their hatred of the Jews. I am not a jew. But to kill and torture them because they are sickens me.

[edit on 30-1-2007 by Royal76]

Originally posted by Royal76
They say the greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was to convince people he didn't exist.

they meaning Verbal Kint in reference to Keyser Soze?

Originally posted by Royal76
1. Plus it is a slap in the face to the survivors and their families. How would you like to have your family killed and tortured just because of who you are.
2. PS you want some proof, documents or pictures, here...
www.holocaustsurvivors.org...
3. Plus the only reason they deny the holocaust is their hatred of the Jews.

You are wrong on all accounts. There are no evil entity. Some people do evil deeds, but they did it themself, theres no entity that make them do it. We have free will.
1. But thats my point. There were hardships in the camps, but not murder. Almost all jews survived the camps. They moved to USA wich got a boost of jews from 20 000 before the war and ended up with 30 % of the world jews after the war.
2. That is the accepted versions. The understanding of what we see is wrong. The documents of prison transfers do not prove that jews were gassed. It proves that prisoners were transfered. It is already known the camps were prison camps. The pictures does not prove any wrongdoings either; what we see is the burning of thypus victims. 893 000 jews died of thypus. This is well known by now. But certain money interest groups want us to see something else than what we actually see in the pictures.
3. No. The Holocaust is denyed because it is fake, and documents show this. The allied investigated the gassing rumor and came up empty. They found no gas chambers. There were no way to connect any gas tanks to the pipes to the showers. End of story.

Links to real jewish eyewitnesses;
An Auschwitz eyewitness account; www.rense.com...
Auschwitz/Holocaust; www.rense.com...

Remember Anne Franks diary? Several family members survived WWII. Some of them, like Anne, died... of thyfus. You did not know this, few do.

Money interests want us to belive in jewish suffering, even when it did not exist. Jews seems to have a religious need to suffer. I don't understand that at all. I consider their need to suffer, even imaginaily, as their own problem. What I don't like is that they blame Germany for something that did not happen. This makes the germans suffer guilt for something that did not take place. After all, most of the jews in USA today are children of the survivors of WWII.
There is no shortages of jewish camp survivors.

I'm adding this anonymous post in here as I found it very interesting.

Originally posted by anon_93484

This anonymous post is in response to ATS thread: What is the big deal with denying the Holocaust?


First of all, I am a beliver of true science!

Why is the holocaust sucha forbidden subject to discuss. I mean, I can tell the world that I don´t belive the 1+1 equals 2, but it will not render me a couple of years in prison!
I have never ever encountered a subject so forbiiden to talk about. I can says just about anything about everything as long as I not talk about the holocuast in a skepticle manner. Totally 100% forbidden. I can even tell that jesus is satan. no problems. but if I for some reason imply that there were less than 6 millions killed in the nazi concentration camps, I am 1 step from being hanged by a lynchmob. I am no fan of conspiracys, but a part of me says that if you have to enforce a "truth" this way, something is very very fishy.

See it this way. Israel exisist to day mainly becasue of the holocaust (not only, but a big part of it), and germany had to pay for each jew killed which is based on the number of 6 million. So far so good. But what will happen if the scientist comes up with a new figure. let say 3 million. Was 3 million killed jews enough to force UN to give them back thier promised land? Will gremany force isreal to pay back the money that were handed over to them for thier losses? Would sucha decrese make the arabs crasy of anger and attack US and Isreal for telling lies (in thier eyes, the zionist conspriacy)?

Is this the reason why we can´t have a sound, perfectly normal, debate about the holocaust. Is someone afriad that "we" will dig something up that will turn everything upside down?
The chances of that is slim to none. But that fear is NOT a reason for putting pepole in prison for not beliving. At the end of the day, that is the begining of a very dark time for freedom of speech and science in general.
What would you say if you had been forced to convert into a diffrent religion or otherwise you would had been thrown in jail?!

How much science would there be without the skeptics and "no- sayers". We would still be hunting deers with sticks and stones!
If you got good science material, you don´t need to fear pepole questioning your case. And you defintly doesn´t need to throw them in jail. So why would the holocaust science material be any diffrent from that (which it seems to be!). STRANGE!

I think I may have found a source of error in the government. It has come to my knowlege that a man was arrested for denying the Holocaust, yet there is no law in the United States that says it cannot be publicly stated. There are consiquences in other countries for such acts, but in the United States, freedom of speech stands strong for this one. I have yet to find the law, if one does exist, that resists this act. Please let me know if anyone finds the law and please post the URL here.


-D-TOX X

Originally posted by Hellmutt
I'm adding this anonymous post in here as I found it very interesting.

Originally posted by anon_93484

This anonymous post is in response to ATS thread: What is the big deal with denying the Holocaust?


First of all, I am a beliver of true science!

Why is the holocaust sucha forbidden subject to discuss. I mean, I can tell the world that I don´t belive the 1+1 equals 2, but it will not render me a couple of years in prison!
I have never ever encountered a subject so forbiiden to talk about. I can says just about anything about everything as long as I not talk about the holocuast in a skepticle manner. Totally 100% forbidden. I can even tell that jesus is satan. no problems. but if I for some reason imply that there were less than 6 millions killed in the nazi concentration camps, I am 1 step from being hanged by a lynchmob. I am no fan of conspiracys, but a part of me says that if you have to enforce a "truth" this way, something is very very fishy.

See it this way. Israel exisist to day mainly becasue of the holocaust (not only, but a big part of it), and germany had to pay for each jew killed which is based on the number of 6 million. So far so good. But what will happen if the scientist comes up with a new figure. let say 3 million. Was 3 million killed jews enough to force UN to give them back thier promised land? Will gremany force isreal to pay back the money that were handed over to them for thier losses? Would sucha decrese make the arabs crasy of anger and attack US and Isreal for telling lies (in thier eyes, the zionist conspriacy)?

Is this the reason why we can´t have a sound, perfectly normal, debate about the holocaust. Is someone afriad that "we" will dig something up that will turn everything upside down?
The chances of that is slim to none. But that fear is NOT a reason for putting pepole in prison for not beliving. At the end of the day, that is the begining of a very dark time for freedom of speech and science in general.
What would you say if you had been forced to convert into a diffrent religion or otherwise you would had been thrown in jail?!

How much science would there be without the skeptics and "no- sayers". We would still be hunting deers with sticks and stones!
If you got good science material, you don´t need to fear pepole questioning your case. And you defintly doesn´t need to throw them in jail. So why would the holocaust science material be any diffrent from that (which it seems to be!). STRANGE!

I think this is a very, very good point. Why would this "truth" have to be enforced like this if it is so "obvious"? I wish I knew who the person was that posted this so I could have a good conversation with them. I think the world needs more people that think like this, and less that go on with their lives while believing the government.


-D-TOX X

Considering that all the world war's happened after the creation of the Federal Reserve. I have come to the conclusion that the Holocaust was a conspiracy against the Jewish people themselves by the NWO. They did this in order to justify the creation of Israel and also to show themselves as the victims.

Shouldn't be illegal.

Foolish, ignorant, narrow-minded, rude, and self-deluding maybe... but not illegal.

I had no idea when I posted an anonimous post that somebody cared to read it, but someone did. Thanks hellmut for putting it up for everybody to read.

Well, there is something I need to clarify from the post, that hellmut posted "for me". For those who now live in fear in US cause they don´t belive in the holocaust. All I can say is that my view, is an european view. So when I wrote that pepole was thrown in jail, I should have been more clare about what country I meant. I several european countrys it is a crime! From my point of view US have been very tolerant about the freedom of speech. It might be just propaganda, but it seems that you guys "over there" are willing to die for your consitution any day of the week... But I guess that after 9/11 there have been some small "modifications" of your constitution and to the freedom to express your belifs. But, I shouldn´t write about stuff I don´t know. Please enlight me about the situation in US before and after 9/11 when it comes to constitutional rights etc etc!

But back to were we left off...

I have tried to find pepole who don´t belive in the holocaust and who have written anything scientific about there theories. But I haven´t found much. I guess that one problem is that these pepole have banned in both the political and scicentific debate which is very sad. Another problem is that those I found seems to have a political agenda which seems to be "a far out to the right agenda". Or one could say that if I look to the left from where these pepole are I see nothing, and then I see nothing, and after that I see G.W.Bush... seriously. they seem to have a hidden agenda (but who doesn´t???), which rules there studies out as scientific proofs.
Have there been any serious attempt by no baised scientist to see if it is possible to kill 6 million pepole and burn every trace of them during a 3-4 year period? But I guess that everybody who attempts to do sucha study will be "killed" both by media and scholars.
But this is what makes me so intrested in this subject. The ultimate forbidden fruit! A scientist role is to hammer on every proof, myth or truth he/she stumble upon and see if it breaks. If it breaks, it doesn´t mean that the scientist is a man of evil, which seems to be the case here. What if nobody had swinged there hammer to destroy myths and humbug. That would had been a sad day for us all. We would have had absolute zero development. ZERO!!!
Personally I don´t belive in neither the "offical truth" (6million theory) or the "mythbusters" (it never happened), that is only because of the laws that enforce pepole to belive one thing. If that is the case I don´t belive anything!
I start to sound like extremist: "I hate everyting and everyone!". This is not the case. I just don´t like when someone it trying to impose thier "truths" on me without a chance to question them. This is the beauty of freedom. I can choose to not belive!

But the Jews? Well, IMHO I don´t think that they benefit from this madness either. These antisemite laws undermines thier credability. Which is exactly the opposite that these laws was intended to do!? These laws is the perfect weapon for a extremist. Both left, right, jew, muslim or anybody that need a cause to justify there acts. If you want a conspiracy here it is! In the worst case this could be the beginning of a new antisemite movement that will fininsh off, what the nazis started. We could end up with a WorldWarIII. Just look at the middle east. Holocaust or not, this is not a road we want to walk down again.

Jewish influence in the world.
So, why make something so illegal if there is nothing to hide?

Originally posted by star07
I'm no holocause denier but it is a measure of how much clout these groups have that a person can be JAILED for denying some of the things that are the basis of their power. Just think, all you have to do is just SAY SOMETHING which displeases them, and you could end up in prison!

Very well said. I don't like what happened during WWII, but denying people the right to agree or disagree only makes the opposition stronger. And as star07 said, if you say something that displeases them (the one's who benefit from it) you end up in prison and loose pretty much everything. In my opinion, that's just wrong.

What ever happened to freedom of speech? You can't give people the "right" to discuss some things, and ban the rest. It's not right.

Some people will like you, others hate you. You can't just shut those who hate you up. That's life.

Originally posted by Frontkjemper
Some people will like you, others hate you. You can't just shut those who hate you up. That's life.

The Holocaust was more a case of "Some people are like us, the rest shall be terminated in very cruel ways."

That's death.

The reason the law exists in many european countries, as has been stated many times, is so that nobody ever forgets what happened. Nobody forgets that the Nazis did what they did, that many european nations toed the proverbial nazi line and assisted them in their "cleansing." The laws are there to keep it from ever happening again.

What if this time around it's another group doing the cleansing, only this time it's white catholics being led to the chambers? What if y'all are forced to wear a yellow cross on your sleeve, your doors marked with the yellow cross, your arms tattooed with identification numbers, your old and your sick and your babies, who are of no use to the new regime, are shot and left for dead or used for scientific experiments? What if this new regime marches thru Europe, eliminating whole families of white catholics, generations erased for eternity?

This isn't a jewish thing, it's a humanity thing. It's why the human beings of the world cringe when they read about genocide in other parts of the world. It's the inhumans that can look at the photos of dead people piled 10, 20 high, and not feel a knot in their stomach, can look at the skeletal walking dead and not feel shame that this is/was alllowed to happen. It's the inhumans of this world that can even find a means to argue that these didn't happen, don't happen, can't happen.

One can only hope your kids never have to do a family tree for a class project only to learn that their tree was almost entirely wiped out at the hands of a group of insecure lunatics who felt that ridding the world of anyone not like them might make them more special.

If you replace the words jews, homosexuals, blacks, roma etc with human beings, will it still be denied?

"The Holocaust was more a case of "Some people are like us, the rest shall be terminated in very cruel ways."

I knew someone would comment on that. I was basically referring to today's situation. More specific the whole "anti-semitism taboo" thing going on.

You can't force anyone to like you nor your religious belief. I've seen many on these boards mock and degrade Christianity. Yet that's not taboo. (Although that is a bit different.)

And the whole thing about it being against the law to deny or discuss the Holocaust in a negative light is just ridiculous. By placing such laws, you are opening yourself to speculation, as another member said that "If they have nothing to hid, why force it by law?" And not only that, when you force it by law, you are also making in essence more enemies then you would by having it legal to debate it.

It's like telling your child "No, you can't go out after dark" yet they will defy you as a rebellious act. It's basically what's happening in some parts of the world, for example the Iran Holocaust Conference.

YES, the truth of the Holocaust should be taught so we do not forget, NO we should NOT be forced by law to believe or agree with something some people do not. I personally believe you are in essence FORCING someone to like you even though they do not. Those pent up hostilities will eventually show, and when they do it won't be pretty.

But these are my personal out takes on the issue.

Love me or hate me! And if you hate me, you'll face up to 10 years imprisonment.

Originally posted by Off_The_Street
American Mad Man says:

in my country, our rule book, called “The Constitution of the United States of America” as written and as interpreted by the SCOTUS, specifically delineates freedom of speech as a right, NOT a privilege.

[edit on 15-12-2005 by Off_The_Street]

Can you really be jailed technically for saying you are going to kill the President?


I say, regarding my statment above, the proof is in the pudding. Until I attempt to kill him I have done no wrong.


AAAANNNNNDDDD BTW....denying the Holocaust could cause another Holocaust...


Convincing masses that the Holocaust never happened would cause a clash, of what I would suspect to be violent, between non-believers and Jews or 'Jewish Supporters'.


In fact, Family Guy demonstrates the easiness of antisemitic beliefs to convince a mass of a universal truth that could lead to a second Holocaust.

Stewie Griffin: Fine, then, I’ll go by myself. See you from the back of my milk carton. Want that on your conscience, Brian? Try explaining this to Lois. You’ll wind up in a Dumpster with a bunch of slow, unadoptable greyhounds.
Brian Griffin: Don’t joke about that! That’s like the Holocaust to us!
Stewie Griffin: Yeah, well, when greyhounds start running The New York Times and the World Bank, I’ll be more inclined to believe you.


If you are taught to deny the Holocaust and are exposed to Zionist conspiracy this would in turn lead to actions against "the Jewish scum Zionist" who, in your mind, rightfully deserve extinction. Jews already have a bad stereotype as money hungry, whiney, double crossers. In fact when I picutre the stereotype 'Jew' in my head and envision that whiney voice I want to murder every last one. Im not antisemetic or Jewish btw. To me any person who really acts the way a stereotype 'Jew' would is gutwrenchingly annoying and would be justified to recieving beatings.



Maybe this is American 'culture', or lack their of, speaking through what I have learned from it. Freedom of Speech is justified but through my demonstration proves that it will cause problems.



Im not sure if I contributed anything useful but ATS thats my 2 cents.

Denying the holocast? Why don't you ask your local jew, what he when through or his family went through? How dumb can you be. There's no tolorance for dumb people in the US.