What is the big deal with denying the Holocaust?

While denying the Holocaust is very stupid indeed, I don't think it should be a crime, and it dosen't as a rule make someone anti-semitic(Although it usually is linked).

I mean, the number could be -slightly- exagerrated. There were alot more than just Jews killed. Slavic people were seen as inferior, and were also killed. Communists, Christians, Gypsies, and many others.

Whether the number was slightly exaggerated or not, it dosen't make it any less horrible. Theres plenty of evidence that it did happen. Heck, the Nazis even showed it off! Theres actually a show on the History Channel right now about Auschwitz, by the way.

[edit on 26-3-2006 by Kacen]

I don't believe that denying the holocuast should be a criminal offence.

It is extremley stupid but I firmly believe in freedom of speech.

I also believe in freedom of not listening to this type of rubbish.

Originally posted by denythestatusquo
when asked about the Holocaust this was said:

Abraham H. Foxman, National Director of the Anti-Defamation League (A.D.L.) On the Frontline, January 1994 p. 2, gives the following answer to this question:

"The Holocaust is something different. It is a singular event. It is not simply one example of genocide but a near successful attempt on the life of God's chosen children and thus, on God Himself."

so you tell me what he meant by that??

I think he meant that Jews are god people.

Not god's people, but god people. Demi-gods, I guess.

How it comes you think that he did mean that?

I can't read that from what he said.

Furthermore, that would be against the commandements...

Many people who are believed to "deny the holocaust" aren't really denying it didn't happen at all.

People ask me why I deny the holocaust happened, I'm not denying it happened, I'm just denying it was as bad as everyone says. Obviously the winners write history and so if people can easily just shrug off a +2 million miscount (8 million as opposed to 6 million) and then tell me I'm a nazi because I don't believe that it was as horrible as history books say, then you're the fool.

Obviously its over exaggerated, and many of Zundel's experiments are true. He proves that there can't of been mass burnings.

Once again I'm not saying I deny the holocaust, my grandfather had to be rushed out of Germany because he was a Jew, my dad was abused socially because he was a Jew, and so I'm not going against jews or anything.

While I'm on the topic of WW2, if you believe America ended ww2, die. Because who marched into Berlin? Russians. Because of who did Germans retreat back into Germany? Russians. When did America join the war in Europe? 1944. When did they fight with the japs? 1942. When did the war begin? 1939, even though by 1936 Hitler was shipping out Jews from Berlin and already started his role as who we know as Hitler. So please, America did not "end WW2". If anything it was the Russians and the British.

Originally posted by Vinci
While I'm on the topic of WW2, if you believe America ended ww2, die. Because who marched into Berlin? Russians. Because of who did Germans retreat back into Germany? Russians. When did America join the war in Europe? 1944. When did they fight with the japs? 1942. When did the war begin? 1939, even though by 1936 Hitler was shipping out Jews from Berlin and already started his role as who we know as Hitler. So please, America did not "end WW2". If anything it was the Russians and the British.

While we're completely off-topic...

Where were the Soviets getting their Lend-lease equipment from?

Who was bombing German industry back into the stone ages?

And who killed the Jewish Polish army officers in the Katyn Woods?

Who invaded Poland from the east in 1939?

If you believe the US had nothing to do with the Allied victory, well, I'm sure you can tell where I'm going with this.

Originally posted by Vinci
Many people who are believed to "deny the holocaust" aren't really denying it didn't happen at all.

Incorrect. Many people who "deny the holocaust" are denying it happened. Quit making excuses for them and yourself.

People ask me why I deny the holocaust happened, I'm not denying it happened, I'm just denying it was as bad as everyone says.

Actually, you are denying it happened, you, as with the rest of the deniers have simply changed your format by claiming incorrect numbers, etc.

Obviously the winners write history and so if people can easily just shrug off a +2 million miscount (8 million as opposed to 6 million) and then tell me I'm a nazi because I don't believe that it was as horrible as history books say, then you're the fool.
Obviously its over exaggerated, and many of Zundel's experiments are true. He proves that there can't of been mass burnings.

There is no "obviously" here.
Deniers, such as yourself, have been refuted time and time again by Holocaust scholars...repeatedly, and yet you "deniers" persist in your quest to downplay the Holocaust. Why is that? Oh, I know why, because the vast majority of you "deniers" are also anti-Semetic or anti-Jew and being that the Holocaust deals with a vast number of Jews, the "obvious" becomes quite clear, as does your foolish agendas.

Once again I'm not saying I deny the holocaust, my grandfather had to be rushed out of Germany because he was a Jew, my dad was abused socially because he was a Jew, and so I'm not going against jews or anything.

"Deniers" are always in denial.

While I'm on the topic of WW2, if you believe America ended ww2, die. Because who marched into Berlin? Russians. Because of who did Germans retreat back into Germany? Russians. When did America join the war in Europe? 1944. When did they fight with the japs? 1942. When did the war begin? 1939, even though by 1936 Hitler was shipping out Jews from Berlin and already started his role as who we know as Hitler. So please, America did not "end WW2". If anything it was the Russians and the British.

Seems you "deniers" have a number of things in common, and historical revisionism is one of them.






seekerof

Oh, right, I hate all jews and wish they'd burn in hell. :/

My theory is while many of the "main" concentration camps' numbers are over-exaggerated, the camps and mass-killings outside of the media's eyes were true. How would it make Germany look if right near Berlin they were burning Jews by the thousands?

Not denying it didn't happen, it did, I've personally met people who've had to escape many camps, many train-rides, etc.

One person in paticular you might know, Alicia Appleman Jurman, I had the pleasure of reading her book and then talking to her. She had to escape Nazis in her home town, then she was shipped into a ghetto, where she had to survive raids by hiding everyone under the kitchen and pouring human-waste into the main hall so that the Nazis would be too disgusted to come in, and then she had her whole family killed, father, two brothers, and her mother. She was standing with her mother and a nazi pointed a pistol at Alicia, pulled the trigger, however her mother jumped infront, getting shot in the head.

Not denying it didn't happen, it did, just saying things like adding 2 million to jew casualities are often common, also over-looked. Add 2 million to German casualities, and all of the sudden you're an anti-semite, but hey, when will you get the chance noone cares about the millions of people who had to pretend to hate jews inorder to survive Hitler's wrath.

The same way I was exalting the Soviets, is the same way you're exalting the Jews.

One last time, not denying it didn't happen, it did.

[edit on 12-4-2006 by Vinci]

Originally posted by Seekerof
Actually, you are denying it happened, you, as with the rest of the deniers have simply changed your format by claiming incorrect numbers, etc.

So this is how people like you are now browbeating those that wish to perhaps investigate further - you simply tell them what they are saying and thinking eh? Even though the guy came out and said he wasn't denying it you, Seekerof, decided to take it upon yourself to inform the world that what the guy typed was lies and that you had the gift whereby you could truely decipher what he meant. Well lucky you. I wish i was blessed with such a talent.

Oh, and if it is now acceptable to label someone a 'denier' when they don't neccessarily accept the 'official' story but do not deny the holocaust happen, then you can call me 'denier' till the cows come home, and I for one take great satisfaction in knowing that people like you, Seekerof, cannot do a single thing about it.

Thank you .

Ironically this morning I figured the same thing, He is telling me what I'm thinking. I was going to reply with a long list of paragraph-ridden intellectual insults, then further ridicule him, but you basically got the job done. Thank you.



[edit on 12-4-2006 by Vinci]

Originally posted by Vinci
noone cares about the millions of people who had to pretend to hate jews inorder to survive Hitler's wrath.

Which millions are those?

I don't remember hearing about the Gestapo flying squads who collared people on the street and tested their anti-Jew mantra to see if they were true believers...

People didn't have to "hate" the Jews in order to survive, they genuinely hated the Jews, that's what propaganda is all about.

Perhaps you'd better do a little research into pre-war Germany and find out what the German nation and people were like prior to the rise of the National Socialists.

edit:sp

[edit on 23-4-2006 by HowlrunnerIV]

Seeking truth is what it's all about. Seekerof knows that. I imagine his sensitivity has a personal source. It's obviously based upon experience.

I was there when the neo-Nazis tried to march in Skokie. I know some of the truth. Fortunately, since none of us were present in Poland or Germany, etc., to witness the horror of the camps in the early '40's, there is documentation by the Nazis themselves as well as by the liberating troops and survivors. We know what happened. Deniers are the same as Flat Earthers to me. Who cares? They're imbeciles.

But I also have no problem with Vinci considering whether there were 4 or 6 million jews murdered. Two million lives, more or less, is an important consideration. As is one life. But the point for me is that the Final Solution is real, and if Hitler and his henchmen had been able to carry out their plan to complete the annihilation of the targeted minorities they would have done so. I question where this mentality or psychosis came from. Some have said it was an indirect result of the punishment inflicted on the German people following WWI. The Armistice (I have not read it entirely) apparently had stringent reparation requirements which sent the German economy into a deeper tailspin which they only recovered from with the military build-up under Hitler. Others say it was simply antisemetism. I think the term antisemetic is overused.

The pro-Israeli lobby (Zionists) have gotten a great deal of mileage by attacking any who oppose their agenda as antisemetic, or self-haters (when by Jews). I think the world is very useful to them. It's more than a crutch to perpetuate the myth of victimhood at this point. It's become an excuse to enact their own selfish and often genocidal policies. As Washington politicians have learned, oppose them at your peril.

The Holocaust is very important to remember. It's imporant to remember the fallen. But it's even more important to ensure that nothing like it ever happens again. In this we, as humans, are failing. Perhaps the failure is incremental, but the lesson has been lost. The lesson is that whenever you view another group of humans as 'the other' you dehumanize them. If they're not human then it's OK to do what you wish to them. If they're not human they are animals. We kill and eat animals every day. Often we kill them for the sport of it. This mentality is what allows holocausts to occur.

It's the 'us vs. them' mentality which leads to the acceptance of atrocities world-wide. Whether US servicemen and women abusing and even murdering Iraqi prisoners (often called 'ragheads') while in custody - and no threat, or Israelis and Palestinians bombing each other. You wouldn't find an Israeli Jew bombing another Israeli Jew in most instances, nor an Arab Palestinian bombing another Arab Palestinian. They do it because they believe each other are sub-human. It will not stop until they recognize the humanity in the other. That is the lesson of the Holocaust. And it is lost upon the Zionists. Interesting that those who consider themselves victims of that atrocity are prepared to ignore the lesson and become the perpetrator. and also very, very sad.

I have my own theory as to why Hitler hated Jews, one, due to the fact everyone hated Jews at that period of time because they were like Arabs were today, trying to steal Palestine every chance they got.

Second, Hitler's father was Jewish, and also very abusive, so naturally he would of grown up assuming jews are the source of hatred in the world.

Originally posted by FLYIN HIGH
This just goes to show that Iran is in it's own little bubble that will be burst in the not so near future. Also by making such a statement, it just goes to show the world as to how unstable the Iranian leadership is. But what do you do with a country like Iran? You are damned if you do, and you are damned if you don't. I'ts a shame that they have to be the way they are. Another fine example of the religon of peace.

Disgusting. Your ignorance is just disgusting.

I'm not a Muslim or a Christian, but I understand both religions, have spoken to local leaders of councils and know many people who are dedicated and I will tell you know Islam preaches peace & tolerance much more than Christianity. How dare an American claim another country to be living in a bubble when you people are the worst and known around the world for it.

Disgusting.

I also dont understand why the holocaust is such a big deal to believe or not. If denying is against the law, then "Freedom of Speech" is just a myth. I will soon publicly announce my disbelief of this event and see what happens to me. After this happens, I will post a new thread with my experience through the "system" posted.

It is considered to be offensive and wrong to say anything negative about Israel or its policies.
If someone questions Israeli policy theyre almost immediately labled an antisemite, this gives the Israeli leadership huge leverage in world politics and it is BS imo.
Is it against the law to deny that 25 million (or whatever the number is) Russians were killed by Lenin and Stalin, who would reportedly set death quotas for villages to conform to..
Or how about denying that Pol Pot was a murderous tyrant that killed millions, where is the law for that?
There isnt a law for those two examples and there shouldnt be, just as there should not be any laws forbiding someone to express their opinion that the holocaust never existed to the point that is reported today.
imo the evidence points very strongly that it did indeed occur BUT if i thought otherwise, then i should have that right. Luckily i do have that right in the US, for now.

[edit on 24-1-2007 by Kr0n0s]

Germans never did the Holocaust. They simply didn't have the resources and it would be a waste if they did.

Western Allies killed 2 million Russians in 1945.

It's not so muc hdenying the holocaust as a whole but denying the numbers of victims of the holocaust... for one thing there weren't even 6 million jews alive back then.

Originally posted by Kr0n0s
It is considered to be offensive and wrong to say anything negative about Israel or its policies.
If someone questions Israeli policy theyre almost immediately labled an antisemite, this gives the Israeli leadership huge leverage in world politics and it is BS imo.

Couldn't agree more. Indeed that's why the holocaust is constantly and endlessly hyped up, even though it is far from the greatest or most recent slaughter; it helps perpetuate the power of the pro-Israel lobby.

Is it against the law to deny that 25 million (or whatever the number is) Russians were killed

Good point. The difference is that those who benefit from endless holocaust preaching have TREMENDOUSLY more clout than almost any other group in the US.

Btw, there are a couple of MSN groups for those who are enamored of UFOs but not so enamored of the pro-Israel bunch:

groups.msn.com...

groups.msn.com...

The trouble with having laws against holocaust denial, or against any other belief or opinion, is that the solution is worse than the problem. Holocaust denial is a ‘thought crime’, in which the state attempts to control what goes on in a persons inner most being. It’s bad enough that we have to put up with our thoughts being manipulated and shaped by a controlled media, government schools (full of didactic narcissists), and what passes for entertainment these days. Now you will be locked away for failing to submit to this mind bending!

Hey, I’ve got an idea! How about we allow for a ‘free marketplace of ideas’, where people can present their positions, contradict others, exchange information and get all sides of an issue before they jump to any conclusions. That way people can decide for themselves what rings true and what doesn’t. Oh wait, that doesn’t conform to the strict hierarchical belief structure too well. Oh well, it was a thought. Hope it was legal.

BTW, anyone notice how Nazi like some get in their attacks on 'holocaust deniers'?

[edit on 27-1-2007 by resistor]