The War on Christmas!

ya know, I think if you looked a little back in history, the early churches in this country really didn't like too much about the christmas tree or alot of the other holiday traditions. where they tried to purge such things from their religion, modern day americans are trying to lay claim to it for the christian religion......isn't there something just a little odd about this?

I totally agree with the commercialization of it and find it rather sick myself. And I also understand that department stores change their jingle depending on what affects the bottom line. The point is they stopped saying “Christmas tree” because they didn’t want to offend any non Christian customers or to put it more bluntly piss them off to the point that they wouldn’t spend any money in the store. Since it’s had a negative backlash and their pocket books are getting hurt they’ve elected to go back with “Merry Christmas”.

I find it hard to believe you have no tradition either culturally or from a religious aspect, but if you say you don’t then I believe you. However to deny the “Christmas tree” isn’t part of American tradition is just poppycock. All you have to do is read they history of the tree in America and you’ll see its very much part of American tradition. If you’re going to celebrate it in its traditional fashion then you need to properly introduce it as it should be otherwise don’t partake in it at all. This doesn’t imply you must follow the religion, but if you are going to erect a tree during Christmas……it’s a Christmas tree!

not had time to read entire 4 pages just few from1st page,and what i see is the same thing happening here in the UK christmas light and trees are now being called Holiday lights or trees :s why i dont know, also some xmas things are banned in some office place just WTF tbh this is our country not the muslims if they dont like it then they can go back to where they came from tbh....


its political correctness gone crazy sigh i dont know why we have this stupid political correctness stuff.
[edit on 12-12-2005 by blobby]

[edit on 12-12-2005 by blobby]

Originally posted by dawnstar
ya know, I think if you looked a little back in history, the early churches in this country really didn't like too much about the christmas tree or alot of the other holiday traditions. where they tried to purge such things from their religion, modern day americans are trying to lay claim to it for the christian religion......isn't there something just a little odd about this?

Dawnstar, that is not the point, the point is that IN AMERICA TODAY IT IS A CHRISTMAS TRADITION. Even if it's noly 10min old, the government has no right to kill our traditions just because a small small amount of people MAY at some time feel less than included...


-- Boat

boatphone, where is the harm in this, its just a label...

Originally posted by CogitoErgoSum1
I find it hard to believe you have no tradition either culturally or from a religious aspect, but if you say you don’t then I believe you.

Well, thanks. Maybe I do have a tradition, but I can't think of any. And I'm not at all religious. Not at all.

And Boat, yes, I have a name. But you guys don't know what it is, so you call me BH or Benevolent Heretic and right now, I'm sure there are some other things you're calling me. But that's for you to choose.

My husband doesn't call me BH, even though that's one of my names. He calls me what HE finds appropriate and it's rarely my real name. After 14 years, it's still odd to hear him say my name because he so rarely uses it. I could almost count on both hands the times he has called my by my name.

IT was a Christmas tradition fourty years ago when I was growing up too....

you just can't look at it as the religion being purged...okay.

personally, I don't care what the government decides to call the thing, old habits are really rather hard to kick, and well, it's a christmas tree. it's kind of like the gay thing.....they can tell us what ink all they want to, but when it comes down to it, well, the whole concept will sound just a tad odd to me. I guess social engineering takes a few generations maybe. maybe they'll have better luck with my grandkids.


But as far as Christmas, and Christmas trees, all all those blessed materialistic trimmings, well, I wouldn't lay claim to all that if I were a Christian, don't see why they are having such a fit over it. It's like they are clinging to all those things that, well, have managed to divert our attention to the "Christian Meaning" of Christmas. In a way, I think we'd be better off as a whole to just let go of alot of the tradition. our national debt wouldn't be raising at such a high rate that's for sure.

But, well, like someone has already pointed out....they had to start something to get us all bickering with each other, just so there'd be less chance that we'd notice all those crazy laws and policies that they're putting in effect.... this time it's.....Christmas...or is it Holiday.....or maybe we can just call it Fred trees.

Seasons Greetings all all that humbug!! Just call me Scrooge!!




[edit on 12-12-2005 by dawnstar]

Originally posted by Boatphone
Delta 38,

As I have stated before this thread is about the tradition of Christmas and the Christmas tree in America today; not the history of Christmas.

BH,

Here is another example:

Say you lived in a town called Deerkill, Ma. Your whole family for generations has been living in Deerkill, Ma. In your town the great majority of townsfolk been been their for generations.

Then one day a small group (we will say of eight people) move into your town. They all happen to belong to a deer worshiping cult. They find the name "Deerkill" to be offensive to their religion. So, these eight people in the town of 16, 000, get the government to change the name to "A Town, Ma. Now this name includes everyone...

...Is this a correct action taken by the government? Does it value everyone opinion, I believe no. Do you?

-- Boat

The point I'm trying to make is that the Christmas traditions of this country have changed over time and they will contiue to change to reflect the larger popular culture. Some people didn't like the changes then and some don't like them now. Some people want to hold on to the past but change is inevitable in a dynamic diverse society like our own.

As long as no one is telling me how to observe the holiday in my own home/private life I do not see a problem. Filing a lawsuit over what some public instution calls a tree or how it issues the season's greeting is insane.




[edit on 12-12-2005 by Delta 38]

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
boatphone, where is the harm in this, its just a label...

If there is no harm, then why change it.

It is a christmas tree after all. That is it's proper label. It isn't a holiday tree, and everyone knows it, so why should 300 million people go around pretending it isn't what it really is?! A small part of the population wants to change it, that's why. It is catagorically retarded.

If I were King Of America I would make a law mandating that Christmas be solely a celebration for the birth of Christ and all Christmas decorations be a direct reflection of that. I'd strip away all the commercialism and pagan influence. I'd then create a secular winter holiday about all the non-Christian things Americans seem to think Christmas is about. If your here to celebrate the birth of Jesus feel free, but if your here to exchange gifts worship Santa Claus and "Christmas trees" your going to have to celebrate the new secular holiday instead. No more of this mass delusions where we think the obsession with a man in a red suit is somehow related to the birth of jesus. That would solve this whole war on Christmas argument once and for all.

Unfortunately I'm not king so I guess we'll just have to wait for the religious maniacs to find some new "controversy" to feed their persecution complex.

Originally posted by Boatphone
I asure you this is not "poppycock" at all. This just happened in Boston, and people are really upset about it.

-- Boat

Only people that fall for manufactured talking points off angry AM radio.

Conservatives have NOTHING to talk about these days, no ideas, nothing to promote, nothing good to say, so they manufacture and wage wars on phantoms placing themselves in the role of perpetual victimhood while they themselves go on the offensive against shadows. Nobody cares. Nobody is challenging this. You're shadow boxing, propping up a fake enemy. "Super rich liberals" indeed.

My little town puts up holiday candy canes on the light poles. Always have. They never were Jesus Candy Canes. Ever occur to you that calling it Holiday Deocrations saves the practice since it would be illegal to spend government funds on anything referring to CHRIST (who has NOTHING to do with America).

The last empire He presided over was Roman.

Originally posted by Delta 38
The point I'm trying to make is that the Christmas traditions of this country have changed over time and they will contiue to change to reflect the larger popular culture.

Um... I'm pretty sure the larger popular culture is most upset with this whole attack on Christmas.

Originally posted by LostSailor
Um... I'm pretty sure the larger popular culture is most upset with this whole attack on Christmas.

"You're pretty sure", huh? Well, I guess that settles it, then.

Seriously, I think a very small, very loud, very insecure minority of people are upset by what other people wish to call the tree in their home. This very small group is making a hell of a lot of noise over nothing and they're looking pretty silly doing it.

Besides, I have yet to see this "attack on Christmas". Where is it? It's nothing but a fantasy. Some people deciding to call a tree something different does NOT make an attack on the whole institution of Christmas!

"Save Christmas! It's being attacked!" How dramatic!

You guys need to quit associating the American tradition with religion. It’s a lot deeper than that and all you need to do is study the history of it. This isn’t about a Christian holiday; it’s about American tradition.

After watching the history of Christmas on the History channel last night, not only do I have a clearer understanding, but I see its always been attacked by separatist or even in some cases Christians themselves, but its always survived due to the meaning behind it.

I think Charles Dickens summed it up best in a Christmas Carol, the true meaning of it is important, it always has been, and it’s the tradition of it that we fight to keep, not the religious implications…..




[edit on 13-12-2005 by CogitoErgoSum1]

Nice post, CogitoErgoSum1

Originally posted by CogitoErgoSum1
You guys need to quit associating the American tradition with religion. It’s a lot deeper than that and all you need to do is study the history of it. This isn’t about a Christian holiday; it’s about American tradition.

That's why it doesn't matter who calls the tree what. The tradition will survive!

After watching the history Christmas on the History channel last night, not only do I have a clearer understanding, but I see its always been attacked by separatist or even in some cases Christians themselves, but its always survived due to the meaning behind it.

Excellent point! Why are the Grinch movies so popular? And all the movies where we almost lost Christmas! Great point! Christmas as a tradition will always survive!

Happy Holidays, everybody!

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Nice post, CogitoErgoSum1

Happy Holidays, everybody!

Thanks... And Merry Christmas!!

Originally posted by boogyman
If I were King Of America I would make a law mandating that Christmas be solely a celebration for the birth of Christ and all Christmas decorations be a direct reflection of that. I'd strip away all the commercialism and pagan influence. I'd then create a secular winter holiday about all the non-Christian things Americans seem to think Christmas is about. If your here to celebrate the birth of Jesus feel free, but if your here to exchange gifts worship Santa Claus and "Christmas trees" your going to have to celebrate the new secular holiday instead. No more of this mass delusions where we think the obsession with a man in a red suit is somehow related to the birth of jesus. That would solve this whole war on Christmas argument once and for all.

Unfortunately I'm not king so I guess we'll just have to wait for the religious maniacs to find some new "controversy" to feed their persecution complex.

i'd vote for this man as King of America.

for now, you'll just have to settle for an WATS vote

it doesn't really seem to matter. the whole tradition of christmas as we know it is barely 100 years old. the tree is even a vestige of the ancient pagan feast that took place on the 25 of december. it doesn't even matter what we call it, so why worry if it's no longer a christmas tree?

OH come on.
A attack on Christmas. LOL

Oriely is talking about this all the time. How about talking about some real issues. Like congress sticking it to the working man. Letting corporations bank in bermuda and sending your jobs to India.

The bottom line is this. It use to be pagen holiday, that was turned into a religous one. Then it was turned into a corporate holiday, to have you spend money. Corporations dont care about anything but the bottom line. They are there to make money, nothing else. They dont care about your belifs on Christams. Why does this surprise you.

They send your jobs to India and cut your wages and your crying over Happy Holidays

Think of it. Elves dancing in the streets, greeting us with flowers and song. The brutal dictator Santa Claus of the Christmas regime needs to go. The world will be a safer place without him.