The War on Christmas!

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Very good points, thanks.

-- Boat

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Furthermore, the Christmas tree did not originate in the US. It's not some bastion of American tradition. Only in the minds of people who have their panties in a twist about this whole thing, is the Christmas tree an American tradition.

Indeed it is.....

There are several cities in the United States which lay claim to that country's first Christmas tree. Windsor Locks, Connecticut claims that a Hessian soldier put up a Christmas tree in 1777 while imprisoned at the Noden-Reed House, thus making it the home of the first Christmas tree in New England. "First Christmas Tree in America" is also claimed by Easton, Pennsylvania, where German settlers purportedly erected a Christmas tree in 1816.

Traditionally, Christmas trees were not brought in and decorated until Christmas Eve (24 December), and then removed the day after twelfth night (i.e., 6 January); to have a tree up before or after these dates was even considered bad luck.

link

The modern custom is not a direct descended from pagan tradition.

Read a little about it


history of the christmas tree

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Ooohh! Good answer! Really helpful! :shk:

I guess you didn't read the rest of it.

Is it proper to call a German Sheppard an American Sheppard?

NO!

And just because I don't like them, doesn't mean I should get a stick up my ass, and start renaming things.

GET OVER IT!

It is not a holiday tree, it is a CHRISTMAS tree!

The thing is. No one is forcing you to do anything.

YES YOU ARE.

You are forcing 75+% of this nation to accept an incorrect term for a Christmas tree. You are violating Christans freedom of religion by renaming their religious symbols.

You're trying to force your beliefs on everyone.

No one is forcing you to celebrate Christmas, we are simply asking that you call a CHRISTMAS tree by it's proper NAME, and not rename it because you dislike it

Originally posted by Boatphone
BH,

Please, be honest. You really think the government has the right to rename things even when a majority of people are against it?

I am being honest, man. I don't do anything else.

I don't really 'get' that the government is renaming the tree. A paper had the word in its press release. But I think anyone should correct mistakes or do what they can to be more inclusive in a nation that claims to be the melting pot of the world.

What if those in government are getting kick-backs from the super rich, do you think thats okay to have a small minority of super rich over ride the popular vote?!!?

No, of course not. But we don't run this country by majority rule. And like I said, I don't see the official name of the tree being changed.

This is the point right here, they're trying to include everyone. That's the very spirit of Christmas, for Christ's sake! They don't have a menorah or any other religious symbol there. Why can't the Christians share the tree with everyone?

However, others said state organizations should try to include people of all faiths in the holiday season.

You really did skip over by renaming of a town argument, i gotta call you out on it.

I don't think a bunch of new people should be able to move in and rename the town, no. But that's totally not what's happening here.

You're not going to see my point of view and I'm certainly not going to understand yours. Thanks a lot for trying to make some sense of it for me.

I guess the words "Christmas Tree" are more important and powerful to many Christians than the spirit of giving, understanding, loving and generosity of spirit behind the holiday. Makes me really sad.

Originally posted by American Mad Man
Is it proper to call a German Sheppard an American Sheppard?

Proper? WTF? Who cares what's the proper name of a dog? Are we in a dog show? Sometimes there is more than one name for an object.

You are forcing 75+% of this nation to accept an incorrect term for a Christmas tree. You are violating Christans freedom of religion by renaming their religious symbols.

I am doing no such thing! You don't have to accept diddly. I'm not even asking you to. I don't care whether you accept it or not. And I have renamed nothing. I don't even celebrate Christmas or any holiday. I don't care what you do.

... we are simply asking that you call a CHRISTMAS tree by it's proper NAME, and not rename it because you dislike it

Well, you can ask, but I'm sorry, I don't agree that Christmas tree IS the proper name and I don't wish to oblige. I will call it whatever I like. And you can blow up as much as you wish.

Originally posted by American Mad Man
Is it proper to call a German Sheppard an American Sheppard?

No, but it is proper to call it a dog... A German person might be offended that I have chosen a more 'generic' term, and not honored the tradition of his homeland blah, blah, blah, but it is a dog. And it's 'proper' to call it a dog.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by American Mad Man
Is it proper to call a German Sheppard an American Sheppard?

No, but it is proper to call it a dog... A German person might be offended that I have chosen a more 'generic' term, and not honored the tradition of his homeland blah, blah, blah, but it is a dog. And it's 'proper' to call it a dog.

But would you call it an American Sheppard?

No, because that is not what type of Sheppard it is, just as you should not call a CHRISTMAS tree a holiday tree.

It isn't a holiday tree, it's a christmas tree, and no ammount of resentment by you will change that.

But would you call it an American Sheppard?

No. But I would call it a Shepherd, a pooch, a doggie, a canine, a GSD or it's given name.

The tree is put up for the holidays. It's festive, It makes perfect sense to me that some would want to call it a Christmas tree and others would want to call it a Holiday tree.

Originally posted by American Mad Man
and no ammount of resentment by you will change that.

What makes you think I resent something? As I said, I don't celebrate Christmas, I'm not a member of a religion and I don't care what anyone calls the tree. They can call it Mr. Potato Head for all I care.

For you to claim that I have some sort of resentment about all this is simply an incorrect assumption on your part. If there's any resentment going on, I believe it's you who resent people calling it a Holiday Tree. Else why all the fuss?

I was just hoping to understand the unnaturally strong attachment that some have to nomenclature of their pagen symbols.

Edited to answer your question.

[edit on 12-12-2005 by Benevolent Heretic]

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

What makes you think I resent something?

Your refusal to call a Christmas tree by it's name, and instead stripping it of it's proper discrition.

Originally posted by American Mad Man
Your refusal to call a Christmas tree by it's name, and instead stripping it of it's proper discrition.

Another incorrect assumption... In most cases I would call it a Christmas tree just out of habit.

I edited the post above to add an answer to your question.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
The tree is put up for the holidays. It's festive, It makes perfect sense to me that some would want to call it a Christmas tree and others would want to call it a Holiday tree.

Exactly what other holiday, besides Christmas, is a tree put up and decorated?

Originally posted by American Mad Man
Exactly what other holiday, besides Christmas, is a tree put up and decorated?

I already went over that on page 2 of this thread. (See Tannenbaum)

In addition, "The holidays" has long been a phrase used to encompass the celebrations at the end of the year, usually starting with Thanksgiving and moving through till Jan 2, including, but not limited to Thanksgiving, Christmas, Hanukah, Winter Solstice and New Years. Christmas is but one of the Winter Celebrations all glommed together in the cold dark days of the Northern Hemisphere.

It's a traditional phrase! You should like that!

[edit on 12-12-2005 by Benevolent Heretic]

Yule (winter solstice celebration) or Yuletide are also archaic terms for Christmas. This would refer to the Germanic pagans you speak of. Either way we aren’t living in the 15th century nor are we speaking of traditions in other countries. The modern tradition of a "Christmas tree" the way you know it today in America is without a doubt American. All you have to do is read the history on it. If you don’t celebrate Christmas that’s fine, but I think people have the right to be upset when a tradition that they celebrate every year becomes generalized. Is there no tradition that you partake in......ever?

[edit on 12-12-2005 by CogitoErgoSum1]

Originally posted by Boatphone
Delta 38,

As I have stated before this thread is about the tradition of Christmas and the Christmas tree in America today; not the history of Christmas.

Delta, if you don't mind i'll respond to this one for you.

Boat, your implying that the history of an event doesn't really matter, only the current(ish) history is valid and we shouldn't deviate from that?

Do you know how absurd that sounds?

What if a holiday or special day you hold dear to you because the current society has embraced it but it's roots were from something that totally didn't coincide with the holiday? doesn't that sound sick? i wouldn't celebrate something that doesn't support what i believe in, especially if i just found out the true history behind it. once your no longer ignorant about the event, shouldn't you re-asses what your really celebrating or just stay in denial and follow the pack?

Religion borrows so many symbols/holidays from predeceasing religions it's not even funny.

Actually.......right after WW2 the "German" shepard was called an Alsatian, what with "German" having negative connotations......in fact, some Brits may still use that name.

This whole 'war on Christmas' idea is being bit melodramtic, IMHO. So I did a bit of 'practical' research......a sort of 'survey' of phrases in use from past years.......not a very scientific method, I'm sure, but for what it's worth....

My Mom has not thrown away any Christmas card she ever recieved, or hadn't mailed out. So I have inherited numerous boxes of 'vintage' cards. I picked one box at random, which seems to be from the mid 70's, which contained 39 cards, not counting the duplicates........and the survey says:

18 ( 46%) secular cards ( santa, elves, toys) use the word Christmas

9 (23%) were overtly religious, and all also used the word Christmas

12 (30%) were "happy holidays" or "seasons greetings" with no mention of the C word.....even though two of this group had religious illustrations.

So......30 years ago an alternative phrase was used on 30% of the cards in this sample from my 'collection'. It wasn't considered a war on Christmas then, and somewhat unreasonable to call it a war now.

Originally posted by CogitoErgoSum1
Is there no tradition that you partake in......ever?

Honestly, the only thing I can think of is that my husband and I have a tradition. He drops his change in a bowl all year. A day or two before Christmas, we bag it up and take it out and give it to homeless people. That's honestly the only thing that I do that is traditional and that's because we do it together. It's personal.

We don't have any holiday traditions. We barely recognize birthdays and rarely get something for each other. We have gone to the VLA (Very Large Array) on Thanksgiving and eaten sub sandwiches on a picnic. That's fun, but it's not a tradition. This last anniversary (14 years) slipped by with neither of us noticing. These things are really just meaningless to us. Most of it is so commercialized and we find that pretty repulsive.

Let's say we did, though. Let's say that every year, I deck my house out with lights, holly and a Christmas tree and all the trimmings. I put a goose in the oven and spend thousand$ on presents for my loved ones. Let's say we all get together at our big farm house and sing carols and celebrate Christmas Day. It's a tradition in my family that I just couldn't go a year without.

Then what?

We're talking a bout a "Christmas tree" not the birth of Christ. I think you’ll find most Christians celebrate the birth of Christ on Dec 25th, that doesn’t mean it’s the day they think he was born. Maybe not everyone knows the “true” story behind the date, but again we aren’t talking about Christ birth, we are talking about the damn tree. If it’s put up during Christmas time, you have a 95% chance it’s being called a Christmas tree. At least that’s how it’s been traditionally here in America since the mid 1800’s.

Originally posted by frayed1
So......30 years ago an alternative phrase was used on 30% of the cards in this sample from my 'collection'. It wasn't considered a war on Christmas then, and somewhat unreasonable to call it a war now.

Very interesting. Thanks for that little sample.

I do find it interesting that it wasn't considered a "War on Christmas" then, but since the "War on Drugs" and the "War on Terror", it follows that when someone doesn't really like something, we would naturally call it a "War on ... ". What's next? The "War on Wars"?

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I already went over that on page 2 of this thread. (See Tannenbaum)

How many German Pagens are there in the US?

NONE of course, because we live in the UNITED STATES and thus they would not be German, but AMERICAN.

If some people in this nation choose to celebrate Tannenbaum, that is their right and they may have a Tannenbaum tree.

For the other 99.9% of people that have a tree in their house and decorate it, it is a CHRISTMAS tree.

In addition, "The holidays" has long been a phrase used to encompass the celebrations at the end of the year, usually starting with Thanksgiving and moving through till Jan 2, including, but not limited to Thanksgiving, Christmas, Hanukah, Winter Solstice and New Years. Christmas is but one of the Winter Celebrations all glommed together in the cold dark days of the Northern Hemisphere.

It's a traditional phrase!

You should like that!

[edit on 12-12-2005 by Benevolent Heretic]

I don't care about the holidays, I care about all of this wacko liberal crapola like changing a CHRISTMAS tree to a holiday tree.

It is simply stupid, and frankly even though I might not be a Christian my self, I find it offensive that THEIR tradition and THEIR holiday is constantly attacked and stripped of it's meaning by radical liberal non-sense.

BH,

Do you have a name? I do its John. If people started calling me Billy they would be calling me the wrong name. My name is John not Billy.

-- Boat