Bodies of Killed Service Members Return as Freight

Defcon5 isn't the only one that's worked at an airport loam. When I worked security, we were fined $10K if we delayed a flight. But obviously you aren't interested in facts, or other peoples experience, so I'm just gonna ignore this one from now on.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
But obviously you aren't interested in facts,

Neither apparently are you, or some others within this thread...

I have yet to see a single link from ANYONE in this thread supporting their argument against what the Holley's wanted.

Makes me really wonder why?????????


[edit on 12-12-2005 by loam]

I said I wasn't going to do this but what the heck.

There ARE no links supporting what we're saying loam, because this is the kind of information that falls between public knowledge and SSI which is a slightly lower level than classified. It's not public knowledge, but it's told to the employees of the company to make sure they don't screw up and delay a flight. Wcwn rhwn ir'a nor exactly spread around.

quote : " I'll let the board decide if your questions have merit. "

err ok , whatever - they were adressed to you .

if you choose to evade them , fine - i will not trouble you again

I did a little research on this subject and this is what I found out.

Military regulations require an honor guard of at LEAST two active duty members including ONE from the deceased’s branch of service. More may be provided if they are available. The honor guard will supervise the playing of Taps at the funeral service. Taps will played by a Bugler if one is available, by recording if one is not. The service member from the deceased’s service will present the flag to the designated recipient. An escort from the deceased’s unit will be provided to travel with the body IF requested by the deceased’s next of kin. This information came directly from the DOD website.

I spoke with the Navy recruiting office in my hometown and asked about their policy on honor guards. I found out a few things that I didn’t know. The recruiting office may be the only representatives of the military in many small towns, as a result they are often responsible for notifying the family of a service member’s death. They also work with the director of the chosen funeral home to help with funeral arrangements. Many times they ARE the honor guards at the funeral services. One thing that may interest you is that they have a severe shortage of Buglers to play Taps. They have to rely on a recorded version. The suggestion was made that they approach some of the local college and high school bands, but the local group of anti-war protestors made such an outcry that the idea was scrapped.

I also checked with US Air in Pittsburgh about their policy on the honor guards meeting the plane for the unloading of the remains. I was told that the policy was set by the airport not the airline. The airport will NOT allow the honor guard to meet the aircraft on the ramp. US Air’s policy is to use 1 baggage cart and to remove the casket from the aircraft and to transport it directly to the cargo area where the honor guard meets it. I was informed that this policy varies from airport to airport.

Loam

We are arguing with this to you because you are picking a topic which you think can attack the administration yet again, and you are trying to put yourself in a position that you want to seem that you actually care about the soldiers, *snip*. You do not understand the sacrifice anyways, so why are you arguing here? Why are you trying to claim that you care so much? Why dont you just admit that your acting this way to have another reason to hate Bush.

You really need to do some more research here, if you are truley upset and find out for yourself, not from boxer, how the military does honors. I think, once you find the standard procedures you might then wake up and realize this is just what I have postulated, another Bush hunt.

Train

Mod Edit: Removed uneeded personal attack.

[edit on 13-12-2005 by ZeddicusZulZorander]

First, I apologize for not reading this entire thread, I simply don't have the time. But this is a very important issue.

Over here in this thread; Kerry calls U.S. troops terrorists there's been a debate over what I see as the misrepresentation of Kerry's words, and twisting them into a meaning that conservatives can find offense.

But here in this thread, and in the actions of the treatment of our nation's fallen warriors, we have actual evidence that the current "people in charge" actually care little about our soldiers and their families.
www.10news.com...


So I ask, in the spectrum of perceptions, which is worse:

A politician using the word "terrorize" when discussing our troops...
or
Allowing our fallen to come home like this:



Thanks.

Originally posted by BigTrain
Loam

...you are trying to put yourself in a position that you want to seem that you actually care about the soldiers, *snip*. You do not understand the sacrifice anyways...Why dont you just admit that your acting this way to have another reason to hate Bush.

Your post doesn't deserve a response...but I'll let those comments stand as evidence of your apparent need to manufacture a reason to hate someone you know nothing about.


[edit on 13-12-2005 by loam]

Mod Edit: Removed uneeded personal attack in the qouted post.


[edit on 13-12-2005 by ZeddicusZulZorander]

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
First, I apologize for not reading this entire thread, I simply don't have the time. But this is a very important issue.

Maybe you should read the entire thread.

Originally posted by JIMC5499

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
First, I apologize for not reading this entire thread, I simply don't have the time. But this is a very important issue.

Maybe you should read the entire thread.

How utterly rude to say when his first comment is to apologize that he didn't have time, NOT TO MENTION the fact the he pretty much built this whole site for all of us to enjoy....in his spare time.

There is a REASON he didn't have time and that's because he is working on new and exciting features and perks to benefit everyone here. Your comment was simply a one line jab that brings no value to this thread at all.

Now how about everyone here just stop the personal jabbing and snide comments...and simply discuss the topic?

Originally posted by JIMC5499
Maybe you should read the entire thread.

The question is still valid. Or would you rather ignore it?

The nature of the question has no relation to anything previously discussed in this thread. However, the question is inspired by the topic and content of both threads.

I'll answer the question.

Neither.

They both are statements and images taken out of context. I didn't hear Kerry speak and don't know the exact meaning that he was trying convey. I also wasn't at that airport and don't know the situation there. I think that both items have been blown out of proportion by people trying to put their own spin on events. These days accurate, factual information is hard to come by.

DENYING IGNORANCE BECAUSE OTHERS WOULDN'T

When I first read the story on the Holley family's outrage that the body of their dead son was being shipped unceremoniously to them as freight, I too was outraged. The indignity that represented was more than I could believe, and immediately thought of ATSNN as the appropriate platform to make more public this insensitive move by our own government. I naively believed that others at ATS would share a similar outrage in response to the story. I couldn't have been more wrong.

When I posted this article for submission to ATSNN on December 10, at 09:29, within three minutes, it received its first NO for BIAS vote. My submission contained two simple factual statements:

A San Diego news station is reporting that the military is returning fallen soldiers via freight on commercial airliners. When questioned about the practice, a Defense Department representative said she did not know the reason why that was happening.

Fair enough, I thought, somebody voted no because they didn't really like the subject matter of the article. To some degree, I expected as much and decided to ignore it...

Eight minutes later, I received a Fix Introduction vote. I knew the typical convention for ATSNN articles was to have three sentences...mine contained two. Upon consideration, I recalled that I had seen other articles on ATSNN with just two sentences, and because the source article was so short, decided to leave my submission in its original state.

Fourteen minutes later, I received a NO for Writing vote. Granted, these two sentences were not the most sophisticated sentences I have ever written, but what else was there really to say? They were grammatically correct and contained no spelling errors. Moreover, again, the source article was so short, I didn't think it appropriate to essentially duplicate it.

I let it ride...

Thirty-one minutes later, I received a NO: Not Right vote, and twelve minutes after that, I received another NO: Not Right vote.

Now, I knew the article was in trouble. How something like the subject matter of this article could not be right for ATSNN was beyond me...

In the next eight hours, I received two more NO: Not Right votes. Then by the next morning, I received an additional four NO: Not Right votes and one more NO for BIAS vote.

The article was dead.

The simple facts indicated in the source article were as follows:

Parents (both of whom were prior military) objected that their son would be sent as freight. No American flag. No color guard. And it took the intervention of their Senator to make things right.

In the developing thread, some posters objected to the relevance of the article as news. Some argued that the story itself was a misrepresentation of "how it is done" and claimed it to be a form of politically motivated deceit.

Some asserted personal knowledge and experience of the correct protocol, arguing that the parents were wrong in their expectations. Many responses became sarcastic on this basis alone:

"how could they be shipped - 1st class ????"

"I'm thinking propping them up in a seat or filling the aisles with coffins would probably willy a few passengers out."

"Maybe they should fly every coffin home in its own personal jet."

"It's whining and over-reacting"

"I don't see why an issue is being made of this now except for the media wanting to do anything that they can to cause a controversy."

"should they have a parade?"

Many argued that their version of the facts trumped what the parents were claiming.

Many argued that logistically, it was unreasonable to expect a color guard...that it would be too disruptive to airport operations...

Many personally attacked me, including one who called me a soldier hater and another who argued that I was using the story for my own political agenda.

Then by the 50th post, I was able to retrieve written and photographic evidence that fallen soldiers were in fact greeted by color guards...at commercial airports..at the body's final destination...

But that was not enough...for the most part the denial, the assertions contrary to the parent's representations, the sarcasm, and the personal attacks continued...

I....was....dumbfounded.

When I had initially posted the article, I did so because I deeply sympathized with the pain of those parents. I didn't think it right that our government would ask for so much and literally return so little. It angered me that these parents represented that they got what their son deserved, because they were prior military and knew they had that right to demand it- but that other civilian parents would not fare as well...

The mere fact that a Pentagon spokeswoman said that she did not know why that was happening was indication enough for me that something had changed in the government's policy. In my view, that had to be exposed...

And what better place to do it than ATS? ...or so I thought...

I emailed the senator's office and television station in an attempt to obtain more information...but no response came...of course it's only been two days, but I wanted a response immediately to backup up the claims of these outraged parents...

I researched the web... came across this memorial site of their son, Matthew...read the responses from friends who knew him...the photos...

And the negativity in this thread continued...

And...that...is...when...I gave...it up.

This was becoming toxic to me.

I made a deal with myself that I would not visit this thread again...and didn't...until this happened:

Hannity & Colmes

Guests and Topics: December 13

...Then, a mother and a father whose son died in Iraq tell us of their anguish as their son's body is shipped home on a commercial airliner and labeled "cargo."

Link.

You can listen to the interview ADMIN EDIT - Link to illicit podcast REMOVED

"That's disgraceful, it should have never happened..." -- Sean Hannity

I agree.

...and it's unfortunate that so many felt the story inappropriate for ATSNN. The irony, of course, is that FOX chose otherwise...

I love ATS, and will continue to support ATS...I just wish more of it's members would have supported the Holley's.


[edit on 14-12-2005 by loam]

[edit on 12-14-2005 by Springer]

Members should be aware that loam's account is under review for posting the recording of the Fox News broadcast segment to the PTS podcast feed. This is a direct violation of our podcasting guidelines and represents a serious risk for ATS. As soon as it was discovered, the podcast thread was trashed and the podcast removed from our RSS feed. It is very likely he will be banned for this action.

I thought it appropriate to make this clear, so that rumors do not circulate that he may have been banned for his comments here.

I really don't like the thought of those killed servicemen arriving home as freight. This subject is very dear to my heart and for them to be treated disrespectfully is nauseating.

They joined the armed services to protect their country, their family, and their homes. They went to an unknown place to most to defend that which they cared for. They lived and slept this war. Then they got unlucky and they died. To be honored is their dream, but I can't see anyone dreaming of being sent home as freight.

I say they find another way or change the ways they do have. Those soldiers deserve more honor and respect then what they get when they die and are shipped home like that.

Originally posted by CelticHeart
I really don't like the thought of those killed servicemen arriving home as freight. This subject is very dear to my heart and for them to be treated disrespectfully is nauseating.

They joined the armed services to protect their country, their family, and their homes. They went to an unknown place to most to defend that which they cared for. They lived and slept this war. Then they got unlucky and they died. To be honored is their dream, but I can't see anyone dreaming of being sent home as freight.

I say they find another way or change the ways they do have. Those soldiers deserve more honor and respect then what they get when they die and are shipped home like that.

They are not being shipped from Iraq and Afghanistan as freight. The Air Force transports the bodies from Iraq and Afghanistan to an Air Force base in Dover Delaware by military aircraft. The remains are prepared for burial and are shipped from Dover by commercial aircraft to the appropriate funeral home. When the remains leave Dover they are escorted by a member of the deceased's unit in dress uniform. When the aircraft arrives at it's destination it is often, but not always met by an honor guard. The escort stays for the funeral and is supposed to be there in uniform during all viewings and ceremonies. Often the honor guard consists of personnel from the local recruiting office as they may be the only military representatives in some areas.

After reading and re-reading the previous posts I think someone from the military dropped the ball by not telling that family what to expect. I do not think that this is an intentional slight perpertrated by the government. I would like to know though how a television station camera crew was able to film the unloading of an aircraft from what is supposed to be a secure area. Another question I have is "How did they know that a body was being transported on that particular aircraft?".

Originally posted by loam

In the developing thread, some posters objected to the relevance of the article as news. Some argued that the story itself was a misrepresentation of "how it is done" and claimed it to be a form of politically motivated deceit.

It’s because it is politically motivated deceit. This has never been an issue before, and as I personally have stated this is exactly how it has been done since at least the early 90’s. The only reason that this is an issue now is because it involves an unpopular war under a president that many do not approve of. This is not a biased opinion on my part as I personally did not vote for the current administration anyway, and am therefore not defending them. I am simply stating a fact, this is how it is done.

I believe that everything I have said has been backed up by not only other articles that have been added since I last posted, but also other military and aviation persons.

So in what way is this article anything BUT biased?

Originally posted by loam

Then by the 50th post, I was able to retrieve written and photographic evidence that fallen soldiers were in fact greeted by color guards...at commercial airports..at the body's final destination...

Its not standard operating procedure for certain, especially this picture:

i23.photobucket.com..." target='_blank' class='tabOff'/>

In this specific case, they are obviously at the arriving destination and the wife/fiancé was present so they allowed the guard to prep the coffin in the bin out of site (around the corner of the bin. Judging by the door handle, the long thing sticking up, this is bin 3 and 4 on an AA 727 both of these bins are fairly long) before it was presented in front of her. I am sure that they were briefed by the lead or safety agent before being allowed to do this.

Allowing non-airline personnel into the bin would only happen in the rarest of instances for liability reasons alone. However, the airlines are not heartless and would have allowed that if the wife had shown up at the flight and the guards realized that the coffin was not prepped for her to see it. I guarantee that this coffin was similarly shipped, and the guards entered the bin to remove the outer casing and drape the flag before it was moved into the doorway within her sight.

These are very upsetting pictures by the way, I truly feel for this soldiers wife.



The above image is obviously the final unloading of this soldier, I am pretty certain that Green airport is a small airfield, and if you notice the guard is under escort by an Airport Police officer that is slightly visible in a blue uniform behind the guards (He is sticking out slightly to the left of the guard at the right edge of the photo, with the blue hat and no gloves).




This one was taken at the freight house, this is not on the ramp, but usually a building build on the edge of the airfield with ramp access on one side and civilian access on the other. There is plenty of room and safe area for this type of display at the freight house.

Of course with all of these photos we have no clue as to the amount of time that each aircraft had to turn or if they were Terminating flights. We also do not know how busy that the flight bank was at the time that each of these pictures were taken. If you note in the second picture here there is no aircraft behind the white fuel truck, so this was either a low traffic time, or and isolated gate. On most normal ramps, you would have another aircraft on just the other side of that truck with as little as 10 feet between the wings of the two planes.

So I guarantee that none of this would be going on during a major flight bank at JFK airport, but at Tampa for instance there were times that we would only have one flight on the deck, or a plane could be parked at an isolated gate to allow for such activity, but not usually.



[edit on 12/15/2005 by defcon5]

This is my reply to your post defcon5.


You have voted defcon5 for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.

Very well said. Thank You.

Originally posted by JIMC5499
"How did they know that a body was being transported on that particular aircraft?".

EXACTLY DUDE. It was a setup from the very beginning, just as I have specualted. A camera just happened to be there of one of what, like Loam said, 46 million flights or something. Typical Liberals. They knew the body was being shipped cargo, they knew it wasnt going to have a color gaurd, they snuck into, or got clearance somehow, probably bribery and got a photo of this. So, whats really worse, the truth, or another setup by the liberals to try to trash the President.

And you people on this board trying to say how wrong this is and ashamed you are, when Boxer is using the body of a dead soldier to advance her personal agenda, and your falling right into the trap.

Train