Bodies of Killed Service Members Return as Freight

Originally posted by 12m8keall2c
While I feel for their loss, and wish to extend my condolences to the Holley family in a truly heartfelt manner, their son was afforded no less than any other individual who gave their life for this country and the freedoms we [should] appreciate today.

I agree, I do not wish to come off as picking on anyone, and I feel for their loss and the sacrifice they made.

As I said though they are not treated as normal freight, nor are they even called freight, but rather Human Remains. They are simply handled by the freight department since that is the facility that is able to correctly configure them for flight, besides having an area where they may be moved from the hearse to a ramp vehicle. Usually if there is an empty bin location on the plane they are given that all to themselves, and if not then they have the area between two bins. So it’s kind of like having a whole room to yourself on the plane, even if it’s only three feet tall or so.

:shk:

12m8keall2c you say "their son was afforded no less than any other individual...: That is an ASSUMPTION on your part.

FACT: But for their protestations and appeal to a US Senator, the parents assert otherwise would have happened.

Originally posted by 12m8keall2c
12m8keall2c you say "their son was afforded no less than any other individual...: That is an ASSUMPTION on your part.

You assume just as much as anyone in this conversation. It does not state that he did not show up with and escort anymore then it states he did. Until further information is available on the specifics of what happened it becomes a moot point. For whatever reason the family was unhappy and it was resolved. Either they are military from long ago when things were handled different, or the escort did not do his job, or there was no escort, or any of 100,000 other possibilities. So there is not much else to say until there is more information available IMHO…

loam,

While I cannot account for other U.S. military services [though I can attest to many], I can ABSOLUTELY (not ASSUMPTION) guarantee that EVERY USMC escort is afforded full military honors.

The Holley's accounts are, in retrospect, fully supportive of such.

Though their expectations may have [initially] included more, I can assure you their son's "body/remains" were handled with the utmost respect, care and honor attainable by those physically involved.

From a personal standpoint, this is looked upon as if it were your own brother. Seriously, the protocol is not taken lightly. Not due to the administrative ramifications, but moreover due to the emotional involvement and comradery of those tasked with the objective. Not something that is taken lightly by any or all involved.


[edit on 12/11/2005 by 12m8keall2c]

Originally posted bydefcon5
You assume just as much as anyone in this conversation. It does not state that he did not show up with and escort anymore then it states he did.

defcon5

I have posted this several times...

The article says:

John and Stacey Holley, who were both in the Army,made some calls, and with the help of U.S. Sen. Barbara Boxer, Matthew was greeted with honor and respect.

Since I sincerely doubt that what they were saying was that (but for their intervension) he would have been greeted with disrespect, it can only mean that it was intended he would NOT be greeted.

:shk:



[edit on 11-12-2005 by loam]

12m8keall2c

You can assure me nothing with regard to this circumstance, unless you are asserting personal knowledge with regard to this specific case.

What we do have is the express assertion of the parents to the contrary, which is the whole point of the story.

[edit on 11-12-2005 by loam]

loam,

The parent's assertion(s) [per the referenced story/video/article] do not conflict with the standing protocol in any way, shape or form. ??????

Once the remains are on American soil, certain honors and ceremonies, no matter the expectations of afflicted family members, are reserved for those in higher positions.

While I don't wish to detract from the Holley's expectations, their son's "body/remains" were returned/delivered as per the standing protocol. No disrespect intended ...

Since I sincerely doubt that what they were saying was that (but for their intervension) he would have been greeted with disrespect, it can only mean that it was intended he would NOT be greeted.

No it could mean anything from there is no-one allowed to be on the ramp since 911 that does not have a badge including escorts, to they expected a 400 piece band, 21 howitzer salute, Blue Angle missing man fly over, and the president of the united states.

All assumption on your part…

loam

I am not quoting the story that was posted. I am stating the orders that I was given while serving as an escort for the body of a friend of mine. In 1986 while I was serving in the Navy in Florida, one of my closest friends was killed in an automobile accident. His parents requested that I escort his body back to his home town in Texas. The information that I stated was the procedure that I had to follow.

12make said:
Once the remains are on American soil, certain honors and ceremonies, no matter the expectations of afflicted family members, are reserved for those in higher positions.

I believe that this statement is incorrect. A military funeral is a military funeral. All are equal in death.

Let's get back to basics here: a family expected a 21-gun salute at an airport but this is not a feasible demand, nor even a reasonable request, for some very good reasons. Right? Is that agreeable?

Zip

EXPOSING THE PROMOTION OF IGNORANCE FOUND WITHIN THIS THREAD

ATS is supposed to be a site that promotes the denial of ignorance. Yet when I posted this seemingly straightforward article concerning a military family's outrage that their fallen son would not be greeted with honor and respect, many within this thread simply dismissed the story as irrelevant. Most outrageous were the convoluted arguments against this family's simple expectations, asserting them to be unrealistic, representative of logistical impossibilities, or simply not done.

Well look at what some minimal research effort was able to produce:

War's Toll Respects Neither Youth Nor Experience

The coffins arrived on the same commercial airplane, US Airways Flight 29 from Philadelphia.

Two grieving families, representing different generations of loss in the Iraq conflict, huddled in the fog-shrouded cargo bay outside San Francisco International Airport.

On one side of a cargo zone parking lot, standing in the eerie green glow of airport halite lights, the mother of 21-year-old Marine Lance Cpl. Erick James Hodges said it seemed only yesterday that her young son was at home playing with his Rambo doll and vowing to be a Marine...

Less than 100 yards away on Wednesday night, the family of 45-year-old California National Guard Sgt. 1st Class Michael Ottolini mourned the loss of a husband and father of two grown children...

When the flag-draped coffin was pulled on a baggage cart into the US Airways cargo zone, Beyer leaned against the casket and wailed, "No! No!"

In a separate ceremony on the other side of the airport cargo facility, Ottolini family members gathered as a National Guard honor guard lifted Ottolini's silver casket into a hearse...

And there is this example....

Soldier and friend on hand as Roukey's remains arrive

On Sunday night, the mood was anything but upbeat among the military and police personnel who gathered at the airport to escort Roukey's coffin off the Delta Airlines flight to a Portland funeral home.

Two Portland police cars and seven Maine State Police cruisers, a military van and a funeral hearse were parked outside the Delta Freight building as the plane touched down shortly before 8:30 p.m.

Several of the state troopers were members of Roukey's Army Reserve unit in Lewiston, the 3rd Battalion 304th Regiment. They said it was important that they be there.

"We are trying to take care," said Trooper Ronald L. Brooks, a sergeant 1st class in the Lewiston unit.

This was the second such trip made by state troopers in a week. Days before, they had formed a motorcade to escort the body of National Guard Sgt. Christopher D. Gelineau, a 23-year-old from Portland, who was killed April 20 in the ambush of a military convoy in Mosul...

As a baggage truck carrying the coffin approached the freight building, a hearse motored across the tarmac. The honor guard from the Lewiston unit moved into formation and marched slowly toward the freight truck. The soldiers lifted the crated casket onto a gurney and wheeled it inside the building.

In silent choreography, the men draped an American flag over the casket, then marched it to the waiting hearse.

The motorcade, blue lights flashing, slipped away from the airport and into the night.

And this example...

Source.

...Earlier in the week Taylor’s body arrived at the Greater Cincinnati Airport by commercial jet. All passengers were instructed to remain on the plane until Taylor’s body was removed by a contingent of Marines. A military helicopter followed the Marine vehicle as it motored to the funeral parlor. Police and fire trucks were stationed at the overpasses and along the highway and saluted at Taylor passed by. At the funeral parlor no civilian was allowed to touch the body. The Marines prepared the deceased...A Marine color guard followed by a rider less horse accompanied Taylor’s body down Ohio Highway 4 for funeral services at Fairfield High School gym.

And this one...

Marines stand at attention as the boxed casket of Lance Cpl. Matthew Serio is unloaded from a commercial aircraft Monday, April 12, 2004 at T.F. Green airport in Warwick, R.I. Serio, 21, was killed in Anbar province, home to Fallujah, Iraq, Monday, April 5, 2004 after his unit, 1st Battalion, 5th Marines, 1st Marine Division, I Marine Expeditionary Force, arrived to help quell an uprising, his father said. Serio was hit by shrapnel...

Source.

And, again...

The mother of a soldier killed in Iraq invited news coverage of the arrival of her son's flag-draped casket at Sacramento International Airport...

Source.

And, yet another...

Welke’s body arrived about 6 p.m. Thursday on a commercial flight from Minneapolis. The flight was met at the Rapid City airport by a Marine honor guard, which moved the flag-draped casket to a waiting hearse. The Marines saluted their fallen colleague as the casket was moved.

Source.

Shall I find more examples???

Denying ignorance, indeed...


[edit on 12-12-2005 by loam]

I can understand the families' heartache. The people of this country rightly expect a certain honor and respect and it's a real wake-up call to find just how little the country apparently cares for their sacrifices.

All I can say is that the disrespect our soldiers are being shown started long before they were shipped home like a suitcase in this war. It started when they were sent to do the bidding of an administration totally lacking in integrity and honor. And it continued as they were sent to a land contaminated with chemicals that would cause life-lasting effects. It continued as they were not provided with the armor and materials they needed to fight this war and as they were sent back again and again and finally killed for a dishonest and power-hungry purpose.

I agree. They're not getting the respect they deserve and it's about time people start realizing it. But it started long before their bodies were shipped like cargo back to the land for which they gave their lives. That's just the final straw for some.

On the one hand, Republicans claim the other political parties do not respect or back our troops (which is another lie), then on the other hand they are shipped like cattle in a less than dignified manner by the same party who backs this crazy war.
Schitzophrenia.

I must say I think someof you have blown this up to be something bigger then it really is. Ive been in the US Army for 9 years now, none of this is new to us.

Ive been on the detail for the honor guard, i can tell you how it works. When we are selected for the honor guard we leave our normal duty (Usually for 30 days) and attend the proper training to ensure we properly honor our fallen brother or sister.

If one of our brothern fall we are there to meet him/her when they get to the states. If that means we have to drive 400 miles to do so we do and have. If the the soldier is going to be sent to the family in a different state we call ahead to the closest millitary base or national guard unit to ensure that the soldier is recieved my a color guard. We do what ever it takes to ensure they are shown honor and and if the family wishes we or a unit close to the family will ensure the soldier has a full honors millitary funeral.

If the idea that the bodies are shipped via aircraft in the cargo hold upsets you.......sorry but thats how it works. Ive done my time in iraq and other war zones, never have I heard another soldier say " hey bro....make sure the color guards there if I dies and make sure I have a huge parade too". What i have heard them say is " If i die, make sure I get home and tell my mom/dad/wife I love them".

just my 2cents

Originally posted by SoldierX
If the idea that the bodies are shipped via aircraft in the cargo hold upsets you.......sorry but thats how it works. Ive done my time in iraq and other war zones, never have I heard another soldier say " hey bro....make sure the color guards there if I dies and make sure I have a huge parade too".

Once again, someone who has not read this thread.

Originally posted by loam

Originally posted by SoldierX
If the idea that the bodies are shipped via aircraft in the cargo hold upsets you.......sorry but thats how it works. Ive done my time in iraq and other war zones, never have I heard another soldier say " hey bro....make sure the color guards there if I dies and make sure I have a huge parade too".

Once again, someone who has not read this thread.

geeez....i dont know what i was thinking. Im just some dumb military guy. Ill go craw back into my hole now.....sorry to mess up the thread

Originally posted by SoldierX
Im just some dumb military guy.

Just to be clear, I think being a military guy has nothing to do with it...

Thanks, for falsely implying I accused you of such a thing.

LOAM : you tell us to ` deny ignorance ` - please look carefully at the photo from your opening post - an compare it to the one of L. Cpl. Serio - spot the difference ????????????

Oh man, at first I thought this story was a little weird and then I read that Barbara Boxer was involved which 100% proves this is a another one of her smash the bush admin stories. This woman HATES the military people. She is a rabid socialist commie lib from my once great state of california. If shes involved here, its absolutely a sham. I cant believe I read she was involved here, i am just blown away that she would use 2 more parents of a fallen soldier for her bashing campaign. Well, im not blown away actually, typical Boxer tactics.

Train

loam you say "Just to be clear, I think being a military guy has nothing to do with it..."

How is that? Since you are talking about a military subject and about a duty ive performed before I think im the SME when it comes to it.

If you dont like people stating how they feel on the subject then I think your in the wrong place. I didnt attack you, my post was in general (what I think about the subject). But if you want to take it as a personal attack then I think you may have posted this as flame bait.

Take it how ever you want but im not going to get in a fight with you because you take what I think as a personal attack.