Exactly who will dwell in the pits of the Christian hell?

Exactly who will dwell in the pits of the Christian hell?


J.F.K., Marvin Gaye, Martha Raye, and Lawrence Welk,
And Kurt Cobain, Kojak, Mark Twain and Jimi Hendrix's poltergeist,
And Webster yeah Emmanuel Lewis cause he's the anti-christ.

Originally posted by apocalypta
The key here is the word "but"

Since you have been forgiven you can commit any sin and still be admitted to the Christian Shangra Li .

Well that's wrong, the specific verse below tells us we are not completely free of sin after salvation. I don't think I would want to go to Shangra-li. I'm going to enter eternity and live with God and others.


If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (KJV)


If we claim to be already free from sin, we lead ourselves astray and the truth has no place in our hearts. (WEY)

Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by apocalypta
The key here is the word "but"

Since you have been forgiven you can commit any sin and still be admitted to the Christian Shangra Li .

Well that's wrong, the specific verse below tells us we are not completely free of sin after salvation. I don't think I would want to go to Shangra-li. I'm going to enter eternity and live with God and others.


If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (KJV)


If we claim to be already free from sin, we lead ourselves astray and the truth has no place in our hearts. (WEY)

So you are not one of the millions who believe the "once saved always save" dogma?

The point is that you believe Jesus died for your sins. When you "get saved" Jesus covers all past and future sins...right?

This means you can sin without any real consequences...after all, Jesus suffered for every sin .

You know what irks me? When jesus was alive everyone expected the Messiah to be a conquering hero and not a gentle sheperd. Modern Christians have forgotten that and want their jesus to be the conquering hero. Jesus could have been an example of kindness and charity. Hope and miracles. Love and patience. Instead the message has been getting hijacked since Paul came on the scene.

I am touched by the story of a man who transcended his own lust for power. The story of Jesus in the desert being tempted by Satan....an analogy for what Jesus gave up by refusing to be the hero. That knight in shinimg armor that the Jews so badly wanted.

Instead he continuosly preached, love, tolerance,peace,charity. And Jesus wasn't the only man who led an inspring life, emphasized love and tolerance and made an impact on history.

Stop hijacking the name of a good man. If it turns out that he is God, well then I'm convinced he would be happy with modern interpertations.

Wishing only the best for you and yours

D

So,

Originally posted by dbrandt
This was faster and more thorough than I could have written
www.matthewmcgee.org...

That page says:

Sheol (or Hades) has two separate halves. One side was and is reserved for the torment of the evil, while the other side, called "Abraham's Bosom" in Luke 16:22, was for the comfort of the righteous. There is and impassable canyon, or gulf, between the two halves. When Christ was resurrected, he led the righteous out of Sheol to Heaven. Many (probably not all) of the Old Testament saints were resurrected into their immortal bodies at that time (Matthew 27:51-53). Since then, the souls of all of the saved people go directly to Heaven when their bodies die. The lost people still go to Sheol and join the lost people of the Old Testament in torment on one side of the canyon when they die. The other side of Sheol formerly known as Abraham's Bosom has been vacant since Jesus Christ led the saints within it to heaven after His resurrection.

Pure speculation, founded on an idea 'proven' by a single passage in the NT, which is a parable and as such is not to be interpreted literally and then embellished.

www.scripturessay.com...

That one says:

There is no reason to explain away Luke 16:19-31 as a parable.

First of all, it is told amidst several other parables, told to an audience of both the disciples and the Pharisees.

Secondly, just the fact, alone, that the Pharisees are in hearing distance makes it impossible that it is anything other than a parable.

The only ones not taught with parables were the disciples--the multitudes and the Pharisees only received parables. In mixed company, parables were taught with private exposition for the disciples later on.

Luke 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

This is said in several places in the gospels and never contradicted in words or actions.

There are others you can google

You're kidding. Why 'google' when you can 'bible?'

Originally posted by apocalypta

So you are not one of the millions who believe the "once saved always save" dogma?

The point is that you believe Jesus died for your sins. When you "get saved" Jesus covers all past and future sins...right?

This means you can sin without any real consequences...after all, Jesus suffered for every sin .

I do believe that once saved always saved. I also believe that being saved is a bigger deal than most people make it out to be. And I guess I would be talking about mainly christians in that last sentence. I think alot of people go through the motions but don't mean it and if that is the case they are not saved.

When Jesus died on the cross all my sins were yet future because I hadn't been born yet, but since God is omniscient all my sins past, present and future(as defined by my moment of accepting Christ) were put upon Christ(literally) as if He had done them. He felt the shame and guilt of everyone of them and suffered for them physically, mentally, emotionally and spiritually, so I wouldn't have to.

To say that there are no consequences for sins after salvation is not correct. Yes, if I sin after salvation I am already forgiven and my place in heaven and eternity with God is still secure. But, God wants me to become sinless(this is a process that will not be acheived will on the earth, it is started but it is finished only when we are with Christ). Sins I committ after salvation can still bring the consequences of that sin, God is under no binding contract to keep those consequences from affecting me. He could remove the consequences but I will learn more if I am forced to undergo the consequences so that I will be more apt to agree with Him and see that the sin I did was not a good idea and was wrong.(When a christian sins they need to confess and agree with God as quickly as possible after conviction and that also changes us, when we agree with God that I shouldn't have done what I did).

I'm trying to think of an example in my own life of sin after salvation. When I was 19 I had gone across the border from Iowa to Missouri and bought some fireworks. Alot of the fireworks legal in Missouri are illegal in Iowa. At some point I went with some friends and got caught shooting off the fireworks. I had to pay a ticket(cost money) and lost the fireworks I had spent money on.

I also, about the same age had been drinking(A SIN) and was driving home and kept dozing off. Well, I won't know till I get to heaven and ask God but one of those times I dozed off I felt a nudge and woke up and I saw the car I was driving positioned above the ditch by the road, then I saw it move from above the ditch and back onto the road. Needless to say I was awake the rest of the ride home. So if you were to ask me right now what happened, I would say I feel asleep and was going into the ditch with the car, but God or God had an angel nudge me sharply to wake me up and then show me what could have happened if He had not intervened. Maybe Had He not intervened into my sin I would have died that night, but through His mercy He prevented that.

Another reason sin is to become loathesome to a christian is because MY sin caused the death of Christ. He didn't die for Himself, He died for me and that should mean something to a christian. The God of the universe didn't have to save me, but He loved me so much that He took MY sin upon Himself so that I could someday live with Him.

That's why I say that being saved is a BIG DEAL, and I don't think enough people grasp this fact.

Finally I'll end with this thought and I hope I can convey it appropriately. This isn't my illustration but one I heard. If I was standing on a street watching a parade come around a corner I could only see the floats as they appeared, I couldn't see the whole parade at once. If I was in a helicopter above the streets I could see the whole parade at once.

We as people are stuck in time and can only see events as they happen. God is not stuck in, or hindered by time. He is outside of time. He can see the end from the beginning(He tells us this). He also tells us that Jesus Christ was born at a precise moment in time. So from God's vantage point He has seen every moment of every person's life unfold(all of history, in other words). And He picked the exact moment for Jesus to arrive and to die.

So since He is outside of time and sees all of history at once.

What if that sin I am going to be faced with in 3 days really does matter?

What if I succomb to the temptation and committ that sin in 3 days?

What if because I did sin, somehow God can still see Jesus on the cross from His vantage point at the same time I sin?

What if that sin I just did can increase the suffering of Jesus on the cross 2000 years ago?

Don't tell me you can sin and get away with it and not have any consequences.

I don't want to hurt Jesus anymore than I already have.



[edit on 16-12-2005 by dbrandt]

[edit on 16-12-2005 by dbrandt]

Originally posted by queenannie38

That page says:

I already knew what that page said, that's why I sent you there.(not meant to be sarcastic).


You don't believe the story of the rich man and Lazarus is true, I do. At least we're batting a thousand.

Oh well, on to tomorrow and the next disagreement.

Originally posted by dbrandt

You don't believe the story of the rich man and Lazarus is true, I do.

Did I say one word about what I personally 'believe' to be true? I've said it before, but it bears repeating: Most of what I 'believe' is kept private, other than the resurrection and Christ being the Son of the Living God.

When I cite scripture, and things like Greek and Hebrew definitions, I am not voicing my opinion, I am just attempting to demonstrate what I have found--through 'studying to learn', not 'studying to prove'--to be evidenced in the canonized scripture.

The story of the rich man and Lazarus is a parable, from all indications solely found in scripture. It seems, also from the scripture alone, that even the Pharisees could easily differentiate parable from 'true story', even if they couldn't decipher the meaning of the parable. These days that's not even a common ability--and in the efforts to prove this or that theology with so-called scriptural 'truth' it doesn't seem to matter what the original intention of some certain passage in the bible might have been--whichever application fits the demands of the doctrine in question and its defender is the one which becomes 'belief.'

It doesn't matter if you believe this story is true or not--if it is a factual relation of true and literal events, then it is. And if it is a parable, it is a parable. What you 'believe' doesn't change how Christ meant it.

Wouldn't you rather like to know what He really meant, even if it means adjusting your 'beliefs' somewhat? After all, if you are really totally confident in where you stand with Him, based on your decision to 'accept Him,' then what does it truly matter if your beliefs regarding hell are somewhat mistaken?

If there is a hell like you believe, and many will actually spend eternity there--you are saved and so no problem.

If there is not a hell like you believe, and all of us will spend eternity in the same place--you are saved and so no problem.

Does your saved status depend upon what you think happens to anyone else beside you?
If you are believing a lie, then does that affect your saved status in any way?

Which is more important to God?
Which is more important to you?

Originally posted by queenannie38
If there is a hell like you believe, and many will actually spend eternity there--you are saved and so no problem.

That is incorrect. That is a problem to me. I don't want any to be there, because it is forever.

When I get to heaven and eternity begins and I look for so and so and they are not there, there is only one other place they can be. I'm extremely glad I'm saved but the reason I am still here(as well as other christians) is to tell others about the salvation found only in Christ.

It does matter to me where others are going, that's why I tell what I believe. And I will say that I am more sensitive to The Holy Spirit and know that I am learning to follow His leading and truly know that He is the source of my beliefs.

Does this mean I know everything, no. But I know I am learning and growing each day.

Originally posted by apocalypta

A fundamentalist Christian would say that Kit's friend is
going to hell.

That's what I was asking. I don't understand the fundamentalist Christian logic. If you believe that all people go either to Heaven or to Hell, then doesn't my friend stand a chance of getting into Heaven? He may not believe now, but he is still a good, moral person. Is this not enough to earn him a place in God's heart?
What kind of good and loving God is that, one who would shun his own child for not believing, just skipping over the fact that he is a better person than many of the people that DO believe?
And if you believe that you are indeed correct, and that all other religions are wrong, then everyone end up judged by God in the end. So what does it matter if one does not believe in God in his physical lifetime, if he will be shown the light in the end?

--Kit.

Theory Of Relativity

I have often pondered the notion of absolute and eternal heaven and hell, and ultimately came to this conclusion:

There can be no heaven for me as long as there is a hell.

Originally posted by Kitsunegari

Originally posted by apocalypta

A fundamentalist Christian would say that Kit's friend is
going to hell.

That's what I was asking. I don't understand the fundamentalist Christian logic. If you believe that all people go either to Heaven or to Hell, then doesn't my friend stand a chance of getting into Heaven? He may not believe now, but he is still a good, moral person. Is this not enough to earn him a place in God's heart?
What kind of good and loving God is that, one who would shun his own child for not believing, just skipping over the fact that he is a better person than many of the people that DO believe?
And if you believe that you are indeed correct, and that all other religions are wrong, then everyone end up judged by God in the end. So what does it matter if one does not believe in God in his physical lifetime, if he will be shown the light in the end?

--Kit.

Exactly my problem with the Christian religion.

I can be a seriel killer and then "get saved" on my deathbed....I'll go to heaven and fly with Angels.

I can be the Dalai lama, promote peace on earth, give to Charity, be a good person,,blah blah..if I don't "get saved" I'm going to hell...Don't let the Christians suger coat it....that is what they believe.

D

Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by apocalypta

This means you can sin without any real consequences...after all, Jesus suffered for every sin .

To say that there are no consequences for sins after salvation is not correct. Yes, if I sin after salvation I am already forgiven and my place in heaven and eternity with God is still secure.

[edit on 16-12-2005 by dbrandt]

[edit on 16-12-2005 by dbrandt]

I realize you still have consequences here in the corporal world. However the big prize is guaranteed for you..heaven..no matter what else you do.

I think it is great that Christianity has brought you peace. I just resent that you assume I can not have any myself.

D

Originally posted by dbrandt


I realize you still have consequences here in the corporal world. However the big prize is guaranteed for you..heaven..no matter what else you do.

You bring up a point that I forgot to mention. There can be loss of reward in heaven for sins committed here. I'm not talking about the salvation part but loss of other rewards/opportunities/responsibilities/work in eternity.

Originally posted by apocalypta

Exactly my problem with the Christian religion.

I can be a seriel killer and then "get saved" on my deathbed....I'll go to heaven and fly with Angels.

I can be the Dalai lama, promote peace on earth, give to Charity, be a good person,,blah blah..if I don't "get saved" I'm going to hell...Don't let the Christians suger coat it....that is what they believe.

D

Because no one earns their way to heaven. Believe it or not the Dalai lama sins also. Both the serial killer and the dalai lama were born with a sin nature and at points in there life that sin nature manifested itself in sin acts committed. We are all on even ground. A man/woman who has millions to give to worthwhile charities is on the same level as someone who scrapes by everyday. Both need salvation and it's available to both on an equal basis.

why does this all sound a bit like the old Papal Indulgence system?

You can do whatever you like as long as you get "saved" before your last dying breath?

Come to think of it, it really is more like a "Get Out of Jail Free" card in Monopoly.

Really, I just can't imagine G-d making rules like that. But, it doesn't matter that much to me because I don't believe in the whole Heaven, Hell, Afterlife, Reincarnation, etc. thing. Once you're dead, that's it - game over!

Originally posted by Al Davison
why does this all sound a bit like the old Papal Indulgence system?

You can do whatever you like as long as you get "saved" before your last dying breath?

You can't buy your way into heaven.

This is a conscience choice that you have to believe in and place your faith in. That's hard for alot of people to do.

Originally posted by dbrandt

You can't buy your way into heaven.

This is a conscience choice that you have to believe in and place your faith in. That's hard for alot of people to do.

Doesn't that seem a bit unfair, then? Or have you never thought about it from any perspective but your own?

I don't ever post a link as a reference to scriptural exposition, mainly because there isn't much that is well thought out and not just furthering the cause of man, but this one in an exception:

www.mountainretreatorg.net...

Originally posted by queenannie38

Originally posted by dbrandt

You can't buy your way into heaven.

This is a conscience choice that you have to believe in and place your faith in. That's hard for alot of people to do.

Doesn't that seem a bit unfair, then?

How is this unfair?
I'm not saying a baby or 3,4,5 year old goes to hell.
I'm not saying someone who is mentally disabled goes to hell.

I'm not saying that some people's group who have never heard the gospel goes to hell. But these people's groups can look around at creation and have no excuse not to know there is a God.
Romans 1:19
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

What I am saying is that people are not robots, God wants us to love Him because we want to, not because we have too. Love doesn't exist in a have to situation. So He has given us a choice just like He gave to Adam and Eve.

I hope I say this right. People want free will because they don't want to be forced into believing or accepting Christ. They also want free will to choose the lifestyle they want to live. But as soon as faith comes through their free will and is part of what determines where they will spend eternity, then they cry "FOUL'. You can't have it both ways. Just like you can't say I believe this part of the Bible but not that part.

[edit on 18-12-2005 by dbrandt]

Originally posted by dbrandt
But these people's groups can look around at creation and have no excuse not to know there is a God.
Romans 1:19
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

That is not what it Paul is saying--you took the second half of one sentence and the first half of the next one. That makes it all mixed up. The periods mean end of sentence, end of thought.

Romans 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Who was it shown to? those men who hold the truth in unrighteousness. Not all men, but those who were to serve as living witness to the things of God, being shown by God. God still has not revealed Himself in full to all men--Christ was this revelation, but the full revelation is not come, yet. If it were, then you would see every knee bow and tongue confess. Until we are blinded by the brightness, we haven't all seen all of it. Until all the truth is known by all men, we're still partway in the dark.

The first chapter of Romans is talking about things that happened long before Paul wrote it....notice the past tense? Such as 'they did not like to retain God' and 'God gave them over'

Paul is giving the warning as you mention, but not saying that people had already known the truth of God. Until the day when God's full glory is revealed to all, this post-deluvian age has not ever known Him in the way Paul says. The ones before the flood did--and yet they still did the unspeakable, knowing it was worthy of God's wrath. These were those who left their first estate and corrupted the population with all sorts of atrocities. These brought God's wrath in the form of the deluge and total destruction. God said He would no longer strive with man, although obviously man was the same as before--but this time He has revealed Himself through those He chose for the job. And those chosen will be charged with either serving meat or abusing the household. Because only they have received the revelation in full. It will be that way until the last day. And so those that say they know what God's plan is better be right.

You say that all those that reject Christ will be going to hell. You do not realize that by teaching you are accepting this charge, and so you must be sure what you say is God's truth, because you are representing God.

Romans 2:19-24 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.


You are using this to warn others who do not claim to know what God's plan is--yet this warning is for the teachers, not the students.

I understand the warning--you tell me that I am spreading dangerous untruths to others but I am prepared to take responsibility for that. If there is a hell, and one person goes because of something I said, then I'll be glad to go, too. And since there is not hell like you think, but still there will be an accounting--the responsibility is not diminished at all. Until I knew and understood clearly I never said a word about any of this. And the only reason I understand it is to tell someone else. I wasn't worried about my own fate, so why would I think I had to talk about things I wasn't sure of just to be sure I did the right thing? The right thing, for me, most of my life, was keeping my mouth shut. But now I can't. I know God's name is still being blasphemed among unbelievers--not Israel as the cause this time, but mainstream christianity. More people would believe in God if those who spoke of Him really knew Him. But more speak than know. And those that do know are such a small number that they're drowned out in the din of the hell preachers.

God already made sure we all would be saved. It is not our job to convince people to be saved, but rather demonstrate that they are. We are to serve the guests, not roast them over the fires of hell.

As far as hell goes, the truth is that we are all already there--we've been in hell, sheol, ever since Adam and Eve fell. They fell down. We are going back up. They died spiritually that day, and 900 something years later they died a second time. Their second death. Physical death, not hell fire eternal torment.

We will all die the second death.

First birth--material existence.
First death--spiritual death, the wages of sin. We are all spiritually still-born.
Second birth--the spirit's quickening--the same as the first resurrection.
Second death--inevitable for all of us.

That means no rapture, no hell, no eternal torment. Torment is now and you don't even realize it. You have not even seen the whole picture so you really can't be blamed. But you should realize that you might not have all the answers, or at least be willing to consider such an idea. The holy spirit brings a spirit of humility that you don't have. If you did you would realize that nothing you did, not even believe, made you accept and others reject Christ.

I have no doubt you have the faith given by God--but you have been thinking that it is your faith and it has done something for you, something that we all could have if we had the good sense. None of us have good sense. Not one of us.

The faith we are given is not to save ourselves by believing, it is so we can spread the true good news with confidence and authority. The world, for the most part, has not heard the gospel. You call it dangerous teaching, but I know that what I say is from God because I never would have guessed such a wonderful thing as God giving us all the same gift. It never even occurred to me to think that everyone was already saved--and I'm not even indoctrinated. I didn't even know it had a name until about 3 to 6 months ago when someone asked me if I was a 'universalist.' I thought, 'wow, there's already a name for it?' It's not because it makes me feel better about things, truly before I didn't feel bad--because I was selfish and self-oriented, without even realizing it. I just didn't go there in any discussion because I just didn't know. Now I don't see how I couldn't have realized.


But if God can make me into what I have so far become, then He can do anything. 20 something years of fighting bad habits and self-delusion wiped away in a moment. I had made some pretty bad decisions, the worst in all my life, and when it was all over, everything was restored to me, just like Job. Not material wealth but true personal success--I thought I had surely ruined my life but now I'll never think that again. I wasn't even living to have a life to ruin. It was part of the process, no doubt. 7 years, too, oddly enough, almost to the day. No more temper, no more selfishness, no more worries, no more hesitation.
God doesn't take time to work, what we wait for is the time of our quickening, during which we are tested in the figurative wilderness.
But it happens pretty quick and it only takes once. God doesn't fool around with things like that.

'Man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.'

Originally posted by queenannie38
You say that all those that reject Christ will be going to hell.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels: (ASV) Matthew 25:41


Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The above verses and others tell us that there will be some going to eternal punishment. You can twist them all you want, but there it is plainly said. That is the incentive to tell others of the salvation in Christ and that they must believe in Him, so they can escape it.

Your way is the broad way spoken of in the Bible, "Do whatever you want because eventually you'll make it to heaven. After such and such number of lives you'll get there." Once again a verse plainly stated that disproves reincarnation Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment



Revelation 20:11
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

20:12
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

20:13
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

John says he saw the dead. He didn't see no one, he saw the dead, and they were cast into the Lake of Fire.

Your way is extremely dangerous because many are believing it and are are dying without Christ because of it.