Where would the world be without the US?

Originally posted by EarthUnificationFrontier
If like you said the US government emphasize so much on people's freedom of expression and speech, why was it that the CPUSA, Communist Party of United States of America was banned in the 1930s and 1940s as a political force by McCarthyism and the Cold War.

The Communists were not extremists on any radical levels. Didn't they deserve freedom of speech of promoting communism in US beliving in individual equality, fair distribution of wealth too?

[edit on 15-12-2005 by EarthUnificationFrontier]

You have a point there, but I think they did so on grounds of "national security"...Make of it what you will..

Also, in reference to your other post prior, do you not think that people living in, say, 1800's America or Britain had far more freedoms than we do now? For example, in 1850's Britian you could own a weapon, smoke whatever drug you wanted, there were far less laws governing what you can and can't do (for both business and the individual)...

Since then, personal freedom has been eroded to the point were we rely on the State to ensure our safety and make decisions on our behalf about what we do with our bodies?

I sometimes wish we would go back to the laizzez-faire attitude Governments used to have, when their responsibilites where ensuring the safety of the realm and beating on Frenchman......

There are communist and socialist parties on our ballots now. So whats your point, that was almost 70 years ago.

Oh come on, the CPUSA was barely even a large enough force to have a say in the American politics, let alone being a threat to the US national security.

i don't think laizzez-faire works anymore, people in the current age are too.....contaiminated? Or socially divided into so many different religions, cults and beliefs that without a conspicuous governing body to guide the society would simply collapse upon itself.

Originally posted by EarthUnificationFrontier
If like you said the US government emphasize so much on people's freedom of expression and speech, why was it that the CPUSA, Communist Party of United States of America was banned in the 1930s and 1940s as a political force by McCarthyism and the Cold War, and party members were imprissoned.

The Communists were not extremists on any radical levels. Didn't they deserve freedom of speech of promoting communism in US beliving in individual equality, fair distribution of wealth too?
[edit on 15-12-2005 by EarthUnificationFrontier]

You wanna sit there and tell me that communists were in no way extreme on any level. Let me let you in on a little event that happened in Cuba. Ive got some film that you might need to see of what they did to the former leaders of that country. It was brutal and very extreme. Watch if your stomach can handle it.
www.thenausea.com...

Oh and did you know prior to the US joining WW2 there was quite a Nazi movement in this country. Would you have objected to that being banned.

[edit on 12/15/2005 by ludaChris]

So what it is done 60 years ago, it was still an action that contradicted your government's "freedom of speech and expression" policy.

Just because it happened long ago doesn't make it significance less important, just like the Halocaust. So it occured 60 years ago, does it mean that we should just forget about it because it was six decades ago?

I was talking about the CPUSA, not the PCC.

As for the Nazi matter, yes if it occured in my country i would subject bannaing of it. But since US is suppsingly based so much on people's liberty, freedom of expresssion for everyone to have their own opinion and say to be heard in the country, i would say banning the Nazis party would be wrong.

After all, even the Nazis deserve to have their say in US according to your freedom of expression definition, as long as they break no laws there is absolutely no valid reasons to imprison them or ban their party.

[edit on 15-12-2005 by EarthUnificationFrontier]

Originally posted by EarthUnificationFrontier
Freedom is generally good for the people, but there needs to be a limit and restriction on how "free" people can be.

I dont agree with you and never will, power to the people !!!!!
Giving unlimited power to one institution will corupt , absolute power corupts and people just become slaves of the sistem .
In democracy if you dont like it you can vote and you can change it
so if some institution has too much power there is a vote to rule it out.
It's not hapening in the usa cause there is no healthy democracy and the elections and everything is corupt and frauds take place but democracy
does work and it is the best thing.
I will always be democratic no matter what , democracy is the opinion of the people by vote.

The fact that US is not exterminating racism strong enough in excuse for freedom of expression is not acceptable.

freedom is not an excuse it's a need , if i cant talk what i want it would be a dificult situation for me and speaking u'r mind is living if you live like a caw eat sleep eat sleep eat sleep than what you living for?
You got a head on your shoulders to use it and to expres u'r self that is called speaking your mind.
Not speaking u'r mind is not living.
I dont even know where you get u'r ideas from.

Pepsi you are completely missing the entire point. This is a discussion forum, i am not here to demand for anything.

Zoso stated that US is the sole protector of the world freedom, security and other bull crap, do YOU agree with him?

I simply posted arguments backed with historical figures and facts and proved him wrong.

[edit on 15-12-2005 by EarthUnificationFrontier]

I may agree with him in some cases but i will not agree with him in some
and it's called democracy, all tyhe world has bad figures, exaples in it's history what you fail to understand is that you dont look at it has a nation
you look in one spoot and you only elaborate that.

I do belive that the curent president of the usa is a tiran and a profitor
but what you forget is that so do many americans feel the same way
has a nation they think that so what is u'r point?
Who are you acusing after all hmmm regular citisen bob or joe?
When regular citisens like bob or joe come in u'r house with a bazuka
after that you are free to acuse them but that is not likely to hapen
since they prefer to have a beer or do somethig else.

I mean it when i say george bush is not a very democratic figure but i cant say that about the rest of america wich is caring out a strugle in some states to bash the patriot act and to get the constitution runing like texas austin and others as well.

Thank god u'r mother didint make you a prince.




[edit on 15-12-2005 by pepsi78]

[edit on 15-12-2005 by pepsi78]

It does matter if it was done 60 years ago if were talkin about rights we have now. You can be communist in America, and no one cares. I have a friend who is openly communist, but says he knows it will never work because of men. When I went to vote in 04, there were numerous communists/socialists on the ballots on our local elections. None of them won, but they were allowed to be there. And no one bugs them. Today in America we have groups like ANSWER and Code Pink. These groups are extremist in their ideology, but to my knowlege have not acted on it, which is fine. They can think it all they want as long as no one gets hurt. If you want an idea of the agenda here you go. It sounds fairly extreme to me, a bit watered down though.
www.laweekly.com...
this one isnt watered down by any means
flag.blackened.net...

Democracy isn't about people having a direct say on how to run a country or complete powers on the policies of the country. America and other democractic countries never functioned like that history and never will. If that is the case Vietnam war wouldn't even be waged in the 60s, and in recent cases Iraq. On the economical side, agricultural subsidies on cutton products. Majority of American people never agreed to them. But did the government give a damn? No.

What you don't realize is the constant political pressure from the government on those far left wing or right wing minority parties from over expansion and involvenment in American politics.

And what do you expect? After over six decades of US's anti communism policies, propaganda education and meida three generatoins of Americans have experienced the Red Scare.

Fear and hatred for the Red is passed on by grandfathers to their son and now fathers to their son to the current generation. Americans are already symbolizing Communism as evil and unjust and unfair, when truth is very few Americans on the streets even truly understand what Communism is. They were just "conditioned" to be fearful, hate, and simply steering far away from Communism or other far left/right wing idealisms because that is what they heard and watched from the media, taught through family values and education etc.

[edit on 15-12-2005 by EarthUnificationFrontier]

Well that what it means and i's strictly that no banks involved no chash tranzactions.
Democracy is a vote that what it is if you dont understand that it's u'r problem not my.
Dont link capitalism with it i told you they are 2 things if you dont understand or dont want to i really dont care.

Comunism is the oposite of the democracy no votes one guy stands there and decides.

ONE MORE THING THAT YOU DONT UNDERSTAND.
Comunism if it go's rong it can do far more damage than democracy going bad.
It can kill you

I do admit that democracy can go rong but it will not have the same efect
of a comuism going bad.

The good part is that in a democratic sistem you can fix bad things
in comunism you cant cause you are not alowed to.


All this comunism got me sick cause of u'r lenin type propaganda i'l have a pepsi now to make it go away.

And i can say the same show me one country that is comunist happy.
I am not referyng to the leaders of course the bastards are happy, i am refering to the people.
???????

[edit on 15-12-2005 by pepsi78]

Originally posted by Jakomo
LostSailor:

Fact is most of the homeless in this country "choose" to live that way.

Wow are you for real? Are there really people like you out there who think things like that?

Unlike in Cuba where it is... "you do this job" or you are labeled a dissident. We all know what happens to a dissident in communist Cuba right?

No, what happens to a dissident in Cuba? I assume you ask because you know. Does Cuba have the death penalty?

What happens to a dissident in America? Does America have the death penalty?


The problem with this thread:

To honestly judge America, you just have to look at the rest of the world and how it sees America. Americans mostly CANNOT look at themselves objectively. It's "Rah Rah U-S-A U-S-A" and other foolish empty chants. Maybe some flagwaving and fireworks, yay! But you just need to look at the facts:

Your country is probably the least educated country in the developed world.

Your country has one of the widest gaps between rich and poor.

Your country still puts to death the mentally handicapped and minors.

Your country has a larger percentage of its population BEHIND BARS than any other country including communist China and Russia.

Your country's largest health threat is OBESITY and the diseases that accompany it because you overconsume.

Your country is the largest polluter in the world (soon to be overtaken by China, so congrats).

Your country is responsible for overthrowing far more countries than it has helped, and it is responsible for slaughtering far more civilians than it has saved.

Your country's citizens are most definitely the least traveled and world-savvy of all the Western countries, including all of South and Central America (3rd world countries most of em).

Your country is probably one of the most hated in the world, mostly because of your stupid cowboy President, but also because people can't BELIEVE that you RE-ELECTED your stupid cowboy President.

Real patriots look at the problems in their country, accept them, and try to fix them. America did not come about because of yes-men. It came about through struggle. It was created by men who were trying to get people to NOT TRUST their government.

Fake patriots say things to each other like "I am proud to call you a fellow American" based on nothing other than a vague commonality. However, if these two people met on a bus, and one of them was non-white, there would most likely be a totally different dynamic. (Am I implying many Americans are racist? Why, yes, yes I am.)

So there's my reality. If yours' is that the USA is the best thing to ever happen to the world, then that's good for you. But don't ever expect to mention that to 98% of the rest of the world without them falling over laughing.

98% of the rest of the world cannot be wrong.


BUT let me qualify this. I have met thousands of Americans over the years and I can honestly say that I liked and respected 99% of them. You cannot blame individuals for the actions of their government.




[edit on 14-12-2005 by Jakomo]

al ey godda say iz dis. I iz nut unedyoukated!!! I iz bery unedyoukated, cus I iz wirld traveld....lol.

And you get those facts where? I get it from a European study....that's right. Because God forbid that the Europeans, Africans, Asians and Aussies have sooo much morality, good peaceful history, kind enlightened citizens, effective strong governments that they are in the right to point a finger at us and say we suck. The crowd goes wild in favor the enlightened of the world body taking over and making it alright!!!! yeah!

No pepsi, democracy and capitalism are linked, because if you are democratic, you are capitalist, and along brings all these unjust distribution of wealth, cooperations monopolizing the market and other economic problems to the democractic nation.

A communist country has to be a close economy. You can't have a communist country with a capitalist economy because then the communism ideas would not work. Same with democracy. You can't have a democractic government with a closed economy.

And if you have to talk about being indoctrinated by government i would have to say i am in a far less likely chance of being indoctrinated by government propaganda than you are.

I am not going to go too far into my biography, but i have been living in a Communist country, studied in a boarding school for quite some time, and later i been to the capitialist west, both Canada and America for some years and studied in their schools also. Now i am living in a place where Communism, democracy and Capitalism often have clashes on each other ideologically, very interesting.

I have seen both sides of Democracy and Communism, the good, the bad and the ugly.

There are happy people and dissatisfied citizens in both type of systems.

In democracy the happy people are middle class, company owners, cooperations CEO, managers etc. Dissatified people are the homeless, poor, incompetitive firms etc

In Communism there are commited socialists believing in equality for all, just, fair distribution of wealth, provisions by the government etc. The dissatisfied people are the hungry ones who are not satified with having what everyone else have, tempted by materialism and they desire more.

I do not agree with you simply cause in u'r idea freedom should be limited.
But i has a individual want to be free in this world do you understand?
It's like some one that comes to you and say hey you cant say that and you cant say that .
Of course no body will want that cant you understand that?
How are you going to get there if no body wants it?
Of corse with promise i promise you that and that and then stab them in them in the back stab freedom in the back and come out and say if you say that you will go to jail.
What you must understand is that people trejure freedom supreme freedom and will not go along unles they are tricked witch makes you a
person with a low self estim and a liar .
Cause if i dont want it and no one wants it than go live on the moon i would sugest and construct there u'r comunism with the few others that want it.
We dont want it, no one does it's only you, fidel castro and other liders that benefit from it.

Why in a comunist country people always tend to reach for freedom why is that ?and always flee the country runing over border risking their life?
Why is that because thei are so wonderful hapy?
Or is it because the leaders of the countrys they live in striped every little pice of their personality , cubans in raft boats almost drowning picked up by the coast guard runing away from cuba, north coreans makeing a run for it i saw a documentary on it hoping their families wont be killed and hold acountable after they flee country.
Revolted chines students protesting and things turning in to a blood bath.
And finaly east europe giving up counism and i am proud for that chosing freedom here i stand in east europe and i must tell you people paid in blood in this country for it's freedom people were masacerd on the streets to obtain freedom so people can be free it was horible it hapend almost 20 years ago but now we are a democratic state and i am proud to live and
have the privlage to be free i dont take it for granted and i trejure it, it was a gift and that's why i say people from the us should not take it for granted and to wake up cause one day it might not exist .
But here you come and i must insist that you just enoy me and and you muck the east europians witch fighted for their freedom and paid with their lifes.
Why dont you go seat with bush and drink a cup of cofee i think you too will get along greate.

And why are we here arguing about the superioty of Democracy and Communism?

I am here because other people and I disagree with what zoso28 stated about US being protector of free world, blanket security on other free nations, other free nations exist because of US, etc

And i proved him wrong.

[edit on 15-12-2005 by EarthUnificationFrontier]

Originally posted by EarthUnificationFrontier
There are happy people and dissatisfied citizens in both type of systems.

In democracy the happy people are middle class, company owners, cooperations CEO, managers etc. Dissatified people are the homeless, poor, incompetitive firms etc

In Communism there are commited socialists believing in equality for all, just, fair distribution of wealth, provisions by the government etc. The dissatisfied people are the hungry ones who are not satified with having what everyone else have, tempted by materialism and they desire more.

Democracy is the political equivalent of evolution. Survival of the fittest. Communism does not produce the same levels of competition and eventually leads to stagnation and demise.

Marry the two into a Social Democracy, like in the UK and you have a working system that is capitalist enough to be competetive and survive, but social enough to make sure that everyone is looked after (NHS, welfare for the poor)... The "Third" way as it is known....

Yes, there are heroes that sacrifced for freedom throughout history and i respect them with all my heart. But what America factually has right now isn't the true liberty andf freedom it represents and symbolizes to be. Not since Washington lived.

EarthUnificationFrontier you just evoided my post and only comented on what you like congrad.....

That was a response to your "people dying in Eastern European for freedom" post.

As for people fleeing from East Germany to West Germany, who would blame thm? They were tempted by the glamorous capitialism, risked their life getting there but realized they can't find any jobs.