NEWS: Report: Tamiflu "Useless" Against H5N1 Bird Flu

Originally posted by 27jd
We should just try and avoid making out with birds til this thing blows over, no matter how much alcohol is consumed.

That make me laugh so hard

I have a bird, have it for 13 years and she is as healthy as it can be.

Well like Lazarurs pointed out is a chain of profiteers getting good returns from the pandemic.

Yes 27jd your are right about how many people die every year from the seasonal Flu and people just accepted as natural.

But can you imagine this season after the bird flu scare, it will be plenty of people lining up in their doctors offices ever time they get the sniffles.

That is also money to be made on over the counter medications and doctors visits, and doctors prescribe medications.

Yes the pandemic is sure to be a good money maker this season.

Am I to understand that the use of H5N1 to scare people into believing there would be a pandemic has been 12 years in the making? The fact that Rumsfeld sat on Gilead's board for 12 years and was chairmen from 1997-2001, recused himself from Gilead after joining the Bush Administration was all a plot for him to make some cash by scaring the American people or those from other countries into thinking that we would need to stockpile Tamiflu for prevention purposes?

It makes me wonder who was profiting from the sell of “duct tape” when we were told that “duct tape” to seal our windows would help during a biological attack or any company/individuals that profit from situations such as these for that matter.


[edit on 5-12-2005 by CogitoErgoSum1]

Originally posted by CogitoErgoSum1
Am I to understand that the use of H5N1 to scare people into believing there would be a pandemic has been 12 years in the making?

Scientists began warning authorities 46 years ago, when H5N1 first appeared in 1959. The warnings stepped up as time went on and other factors were identified. The biological point of "self-organized criticality" was reached in 1997, 6 years ago.

Plenty of positioning going on from the get go, believe me.

The fact that Rumsfeld sat on Gilead's board for 12 years and was chairmen from 1997-2001, recused himself from Gilead after joining the Bush Administration

Nope. He only recused himself when his conflict of interest came out publicly - not that long ago.

was all a plot for him to make some cash by scaring the American people or those from other countries into thinking that we would need to stockpile Tamiflu for prevention purposes?

Just how do you think these guyz function?

Everything they do is about making money. There are no problems, only solutions. There are no crises, only opportunities - for profit.

It makes me wonder who was profiting from the sell of “duct tape” when we were told that “duct tape” to seal our windows would help during a biological attack or any company/individuals that profit from situations such as these for that matter.

Good question.

Sounds like a research project to me.


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Originally posted by soficrow

only opportunities - for profit.

This sums it up the best. Maybe not every situation is a conspiracy or some sort of formulated plan, but when the opportunity to gain at the expensive of others arises those that have agendas seize them. Interesting that Former Secretary of State George Shultz, who is on Gilead's board, has sold more than $7 million worth of Gilead since the beginning of 2005 and the wife of former California Gov. Pete Wilson is also a shareholder. All these guys are dirty ....... From Martha Stewart on up and down the block.


[edit on 5-12-2005 by CogitoErgoSum1]

Originally posted by CogitoErgoSum1
Former Secretary of State George Shultz, who is on Gilead's board, has sold more than $7 million worth of Gilead since the beginning of 2005 and the wife of former California Gov. Pete Wilson is also a shareholder. All these guys are dirty ....... From Martha Stewart on up and down the block.


[edit on 5-12-2005 by CogitoErgoSum1]

You know that is very interesting I bet they know that the tamiflu is not going to fly as high as they were expecting if Sofi information on the report is true.

With the resent side effects of Tamiflu to its inefficacy I wonder when the stocks are just going down the hill.

I guess they will put Martha out of shame with this one.

Funny nobody is really taking notice of all these but us here in ATS.

Originally posted by soficrow

The closing paragraph of the article you linked highlights the real crisis here - the bird flu pandemic is being (mis)handled as a potential "market" - not a looming public health crisis.

Thanks Sof :-) for the compliments - I've been researching this topic for the last couple of months...

Oh yeah - and you know what the crunch question is? To have any effect at allthe drug has to be it has to be administered within 48 hrs. Fine - take a blood test - oh yeah right the gold standard for Flu testing is culture takes 5-10 days. Near patient testing - takes thirty mins but costs around 25 us dollars now, how long is that going to be done?

How does a family practitioner or other front line practitioner distinguish between flu and a cold within that 48 hr window? A question that is going to be crucial given scarce supplies and overwhelming demand...

Oh and what about the research being done on drug therapy for cytokine storms that seems to have stalled...

Originally posted by hands

Oh and what about the research being done on drug therapy for cytokine storms that seems to have stalled...

What have you got on this? ...I did a bit but not much. Know that the respiratory effects are equivalent to a vicious allergic asthma reaction, right down to the myofibrobalsts and a-smooth muscle actin aggregation.

More? And thanks.

Originally posted by soficrow

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV

The news on Tamiflu has been out for a while, it isn't designed to combat Avian influenza strain H5N1, the governments are telling us that they hope scientists can use it as a starting point for the vaccine that will kill H5N1.

Odd, that info snippet. Tamiflu isn't even a vaccine - how could it be the 'starting point' for an H5N1 vaccine. Especially when there aleady are existent H5N1 vaccines?

In any case, H5N1 will not be the super flu, but a new strain mutated from it, most probably a combination of birdflu and swine flu. H5N1 bird flu can, so far, only be transmitted human-to-human by contact with blood. Swine flue is a little different and therefore nastier. It just isn't as deadly.

H5N1 does not require species specific genetic components. Other flus normally reassort with swine flu, but H5N1 does not need to go through that process.

Don't know where you get your info about blood - any references? My research shows that even feathers are considered a vector - and that the dominant route of transmission is respiratory.

H5N1 is passed from bird to human through dired and powdered faeces being inhaled, which is why the primary victims have been poultry farmers.

You can cook and eat the dead chooks and have no ill effects.

The only case of human to human transmission in Thailand was of a woman who contracted the disease after her daughter died in her arms coughing blood. The woman had had no contact with poultry, the daughter had.

Feathers???

H5N1 certainly does need to go through a recombination process before it can be passed human to human.

If H5N1 could be passed human to human we'd already be dead.

Perhaps vaccine is the wrong medical term. I'm not a doctor and tend to use the wrong terms for the wrong ilnesses and medications, ie virus/bacteria and vaccine/whatever.

Either way, the governments are telling us they hope Tamiflu can be the starting point of a bird-flu specific drug.

If there was already an H5N1 vaccine out there why isn't it being distributed?

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV

H5N1 is passed from bird to human through dired and powdered faeces being inhaled, which is why the primary victims have been poultry farmers.

Like Mad Cow, bird flu could be epidemic and no one would ever know - because the testing protocols are totally inadequate.

H5N1 bird flu is now known to spread person-to-person, and to be asymptomatic in some individuals. This means that unknown to anyone, some people might be carriers.

Relatives of avian flu patients have asymptomatic cases

Mar 9, 2005 (CIDRAP News) – Two relatives of avian influenza patients in northern Vietnam have tested positive for the virus without being sick, according to reports from Vietnam today.

............

researchers have recently described several instances of person-to-person transmission.

Now there is evidence that in rare cases it can spread from person to person.

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV

feathers?

Bird flu can be transmitted in a variety of different ways: between animals, birds and humans via physical contact or droplets in the air; in feces and urine and therefor, in water and soil and from contaminated surfaces. More to the point, the virus apparently can survive an unusually long time without a host.

British microbiologist Professor Hugh Pennington was urging a ban on poultry feathers from China because of possible contamination with the H5N1 bird flu virus.

Feather pillows may carry Asian bird flu

Poultry feathers imported from China to make products such as pillows could carry the avian flu virus, says a British microbiologist who is urging the British Government to consider banning them.

H5N1 certainly does need to go through a recombination process before it can be passed human to human.

Reassortment is different than recombination. Not to nitpick tho.

If H5N1 could be passed human to human we'd already be dead.

I suspect a milder version has been spreading human-to-human for years.

Perhaps vaccine is the wrong medical term. I'm not a doctor and tend to use the wrong terms for the wrong ilnesses and medications, ie virus/bacteria and vaccine/whatever.

Either way, the governments are telling us they hope Tamiflu can be the starting point of a bird-flu specific drug.

Damage control IMO. And cover-ups.

If there was already an H5N1 vaccine out there why isn't it being distributed?

They SAY it's because the deadly strain has yet to develop and the existent vaccine won't work - but really, it's because too many people hold patent and intellectual property rights on the various aspects of the technologies used to make the vaccine. No one is positioned to profit big time, so they're playing different profit angles.

Flu Vaccine Technology: Who's Blocking its Use?


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Flu Wiki - Cytokine Storms

That has the info about cytokines and the drug that has yet to be developed.


The 1918 virus was avian and is closely genetically related to H5N1 It didn't reassort merely adapted itself to humans.


[edit on 6-12-2005 by hands]

Can anyone refresh my menoury on the Australian produced flu anti viral drug? It was huge news here when it was released but that was long before 'bird flu' hit the news.

From what I vaguely recall, it was better (more effective, less side effects) but it's production was slowed/stopped then kicked off again during this 'crisis' but still doesn't get the mention Tamiflu does.

The timing of it's slow down seemed to fit Australias "Free Trade" agreement with the U.S. that helped their drug industry but hurt ours.

Also, my mother told of one morning in their European village, they woke to find every chicken dead. They buried them, the gypsies dug them up and ate them and no one gave a tinkers...this was long before the late 50's.

Originally posted by hands

Flu Wiki - Cytokine Storms

That has the info about cytokines and the drug that has yet to be developed.

Thanks much hands.

The 1918 virus was avian and is closely genetically related to H5N1 It didn't reassort merely adapted itself to humans.

Exactly - Howlrunner originally used the term reassortment - I think because the terms are confusing to most people.

H5N1 bird flu's most dangerous characteristic is that it already bounces back and forth freely between people and animals - without needing to acquire new genetic information.

H5N1 is a Type A influenza - so it infects birds, people, whales, seals, cats, horses, dogs, ferrets - almost any animal. Sometimes it's deadly; sometimes it's not.

The thing is, birds and whales migrate. And H5N1 was first discovered in Scotland, in 1959. Which means H5N1 has been spreading around the world, and mutating, for 46 years, at least.

We know the deadly form isn't transmitted human-to-human - but my hypothesis is that a less acute form is passing human-to-human, and has been for decades.

I strongly suspect this less deadly form of H5N1 bird flu is a contributing factor in the chronic disease epidemic the world now faces.

Bird Flu: Why Worry Now?

Bird Flu and Beyond: Chronic Disease to Kill 400 Million

Bird Flu and Beyond: Assisted Suicide Instead of Prevention

Quarantine: A Standard Depopulation Strategy

Specifically, H5N1 bird flu appears to be a transmission vector for a disease-causing misfolded protein or "prion" called "a-smooth muscle actin," which underlies most epidemic chronic diseases.

Scan this thread to learn more about a-smooth muscle actin, and how viruses transmit prions.


suzy - Thanks. If you can find more info about Australia's anti-viral - it would be MOST appreciated.

It seems to me that the elusive h5n1 is nothing more than a red herring. I remember there was a "big scare' during the Libby indictments.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't giving out the bird flu vaccine to massive amounts of people, especially before it has mutated into a human to human strain, effectively reduce the patient's natural immune system and it's ability to fight the flu?

Ever since the WHO started injecting people with AIDS all the while calling it a "vaccine" I've been skeptical. I haven't had a flu shot in years and I haven't gotten the flu since my last flu shot.

If h5n1 has been around since 1965 or earlier isn't it rather likely that there are a few people in it's area of origin that already have an immunity to this particular strain of flu?

In addition I fail to see how doctors can create an effective vaccine for a virus that has to mutate to a human to human transmissable form. Even if it mutates, the mutation could render the "vaccine" completely useless.

Originally posted by Shadowflux
It seems to me that the elusive h5n1 is nothing more than a red herring.

There is no doubt the crisis is being used as a business opportunity. As I said above, I suspect the fear-mongering obscures the real situation - that H5N1 already is epidemic, and causing a worldwide epidemic of chronic disease.

If h5n1 has been around since 1965 or earlier isn't it rather likely that there are a few people in it's area of origin that already have an immunity to this particular strain of flu?

H5N1 was first reported in 1959 - and yes, we most likely have some degree of immunity. Also, the virus likely evolved already not to be quickly fatal, but rather to cause chronic disease.

Really - you should read my post just above, and check out some of the links.


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Originally posted by soficrow
I suspect the fear-mongering obscures the real situation - that H5N1 already is epidemic, and causing a worldwide epidemic of chronic disease.

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Wouldn't that be "possibly fatal" disease, rather than a chronic one that will debilitate over time... since the ones that dont die, will get well eventually? or is there other health ramifications that I am not aware of?
and i agree with the fear mongering covering up a real growing situation in the asian countries...

after reading about the chinese disclosure... I feel that they are already in the midst of the true epidemic... but are finding that many asymptomatic carriers are possible, so they know that they DONT know the true spread...

As i understand it, this is a killer, or you get over it... mostly based upon your level of resistance... artificial organ support thru the worst part of the infection, seems to be the only manmade help available right now...

Originally posted by LazarusTheLong

Originally posted by soficrow
I suspect the fear-mongering obscures the real situation - that H5N1 already is epidemic, and causing a worldwide epidemic of chronic disease.

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Wouldn't that be "possibly fatal" disease, rather than a chronic one that will debilitate over time... since the ones that dont die, will get well eventually?

"Modern" medicine tends to focus on "acute" symptoms, and to ignore less obvious manifestations of disease, called formes fruste.

When people recuperate from acute attacks, many doctors assume the disease is "cured" when in fact, it has simply become latent, resolved into a different form, or settled into a chronic phase - a forme fruste.

Chronic disease has become one of the world's largest health crises - and certainly, the USA's.

As i understand it, this is a killer, or you get over it... mostly based upon your level of resistance... artificial organ support thru the worst part of the infection, seems to be the only manmade help available right now...

The hype is about a new strain variation that promises to be a killer - which very well may materialize, if it hasn't already as you suggest. Beyond that, I suspect that the real crisis already is upon us in the form of a chronic disease pandemic - likely related to an earlier H5N1 strain.


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Has anybody addressed the vaccine, not Tamiflu, but the actual vaccine that is or was going through human trials?

Mar 23, 2005 (CIDRAP News) – Three universities have begun recruiting volunteers for the first US clinical trial of a vaccine against H5N1 avian influenza, a key piece of the government's efforts to stave off a potential flu pandemic.

Researchers plan to recruit 450 adults to test the safety and immunogenicity of a vaccine made from an H5N1 virus isolated in Asia in 2004, the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID) announced today.

"The initiation of this vaccine trial marks a key advance in our efforts to prepare to respond to an avian flu pandemic," said NIAID Director Anthony S. Fauci, MD, in a news release.

www.cidrap.umn.edu...

Originally posted by 27jd
Has anybody addressed the vaccine, not Tamiflu, but the actual vaccine that is or was going through human trials?

Everyone's waffling on the vaccine now - saying that a vaccine cannot be developed until the fatal human-to-human strain emerges. Bull puckey, I say. Partly, the hold-up is profitability - no one patent or intellectual property rights owner is positioned to make a killing. Always a deterrent. But also, using the vaccine on chickens has resulted in flocks being infected, and becoming infectious. So I don't know what's really going on here - suspect there are several factors. As always.



clarity.

[edit on 6-12-2005 by soficrow]

Here's the most recent news I cold find on the human trials, it's from August.

Trials of the vaccine on human volunteers began several months ago at three university-based centers in the United States—the University of Rochester, the University of Maryland at Baltimore, and the University of California, Los Angeles. The vaccine so far has been given to 452 healthy adults to ascertain the immune response and to evaluate its safety profile.

Early trials results, reported by the New York Times and the Washington Post Saturday, showed good results after an initial dose and a booster dose given 4 weeks later. NIAID Director Anthony Fauci is quoted in the Times story as saying, "It's good news. We have a vaccine."

Preliminary results obtained from 115 (some sources say 113) of the vaccine recipients showed a strong enough immune response to ward off the virus. Results are awaited on the remaining subjects, but Fauci said he expects them to parallel those already in. The doses that were most effective contained 90 micrograms of H5N1 antigen in each of two shots, compared with the 15 micrograms of antigen given via a single injection in typical annual flu vaccinations.

www.cidrap.umn.edu...

Good work 27jd. Thanks.

Any word on its going into production? ...Everything I've seen recently about a vaccine says that they're waiting to see what the "strain" will be.