Do Jews go to heaven?

Can you back up your opinion with Scripture?

Originally posted by just me 2
God is a Holy God who can’t and won’t allow sin into His Presence.

Is this statement incorrect, is Job 1:6 incorrect, or is Satan sinless?

Originally posted by Raphael_UO

Originally posted by just me 2
God is a Holy God who can’t and won’t allow sin into His Presence.

Is this statement incorrect, is Job 1:6 incorrect, or is Satan sinless?

Job 1:6 "One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them."

I'm not sure what you mean. Satan is not sinless.

Do Jews go to heaven?

Depends. Does the individual Jew practice the actions, behaviors and willfull intent within their own selves that they demand of everyone else in existance?

Practicing Hypocrites do not go to heaven. Even most Christians believe this to be true. Yet most Christians are also against capital punishment/the death penalty. Practicing Hypocrites themselves, considering that their whole religion would not even exist if it were not for capital punishment and the death penalty.

Just an observation .. . .

[edit on 2-12-2005 by Esoteric Teacher]

Originally posted by just me 2
I'm not sure what you mean. Satan is not sinless.

Let me rephrase then:

Which of the following are correct:

1. God is a Holy God who can’t and won’t allow sin into His Presence.
2. Satan was not in the presence of the Lord in Job 1:6.
3. Satan is sinless.

In order for the first statement to be correct, one of the other two statmements must also be correct.

[edit on 2-12-2005 by Raphael_UO]

I suppose I never thought of that. I stand corrected.

Let me rephrase my statement:

God will not allow sin to enter His Kingdom.

How much of this is dependant upon using the usual understanding of 'heaven', which is often just a materialistic paradise, versus the jewish understanding of what life after death means? because I get the impression that jewish theology doesn't talk about 'heaven' in anything like what most people take it to mean.

KL
to accept Christ as their lord and savior and attempted to live their life as Jesus taught

So you are a faith plus works kinda guy right?

Originally posted by kinglizard
No one comes to the Father except through me

Is this necessarily salvation tho, or is it something other than salvation, as in knowledge of the father or a relationship with the father, rather than salvation, ie soul made immortal?

Nagell
it is through the talmud with it's anti-gentile law and jurisprudence that jewish supremacists have justified the suffering they impose on the palestinian people.

This is completely off topic.

Simon the byron
some reason 'aionion' is translated innaccurately in all Ancient Greek translation tools I've found

is it 'aionion', as like a root for 'aeon' or 'eon'? Thus it means 'for eons they'll be in this condition'? It seems like that could go either way, as in 'forever' or 'a super long time', tho eon in greek theology, as i understand it, is a finite period of time. Perhaps the authors weren't native greek speakers and made an error?

Also, keep in mind that the gospels were in greek because they were read by greeks, and there doesn't seem to be any indication that this community of beleivers beleived anything substantially different from today, ie that the salvation or punishment is everlasting. (tho since the 'punishment' is annhiliation in a lake of fire and absolute destruction, its not 'everlasting', as in somethign experienced forever, its not experienced because the experiencer is utterly wiped out).

Originally posted by Raphael_UO

Originally posted by just me 2
I'm not sure what you mean. Satan is not sinless.

Let me rephrase then:

Which of the following are correct:

1. God is a Holy God who can’t and won’t allow sin into His Presence.
2. Satan was not in the presence of the Lord in Job 1:6.
3. Satan is sinless.

In order for the first statement to be correct, one of the other two statmements must also be correct.

[edit on 2-12-2005 by Raphael_UO]

In order for God to be God, then God's presence is, for how can anything that is true be seperate from the first truth?

Therefore Sin itself is an illusion, and God does not succumb to deceptions.

Perhaps Satan's redemption and the end to the War of the Kingdom of Heaven depends upon the intentionality of humanity?



[edit on 2-12-2005 by Esoteric Teacher]

Originally posted by just me 2
God will not allow sin to enter His Kingdom.

When Elijah was lifted up by a whirlwind into Heaven, was he sinless or did he not enter into God's Kingdom?

Originally posted by just me 2
Can you back up your opinion with Scripture?

I think the following should be sufficient:

Genesis 15
God's Covenant With Abram
1 After this, the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision:
"Do not be afraid, Abram.
I am your shield, [a]
your very great reward. "
2 But Abram said, "O Sovereign LORD, what can you give me since I remain childless and the one who will inherit [c] my estate is Eliezer of Damascus?" 3 And Abram said, "You have given me no children; so a servant in my household will be my heir."

4 Then the word of the LORD came to him: "This man will not be your heir, but a son coming from your own body will be your heir." 5 He took him outside and said, "Look up at the heavens and count the stars—if indeed you can count them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be."

6 Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

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Genesis 17
The Covenant of Circumcision
1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, "I am God Almighty [a] ; walk before me and be blameless. 2 I will confirm my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers."
3 Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4 "As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 5 No longer will you be called Abram ; your name will be Abraham, [c] for I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. 7 I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. 8 The whole land of Canaan, where you are now an alien, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God."

9 Then God said to Abraham, "As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. 13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."

15 God also said to Abraham, "As for Sarai your wife, you are no longer to call her Sarai; her name will be Sarah. 16 I will bless her and will surely give you a son by her. I will bless her so that she will be the mother of nations; kings of peoples will come from her."

17 Abraham fell facedown; he laughed and said to himself, "Will a son be born to a man a hundred years old? Will Sarah bear a child at the age of ninety?" 18 And Abraham said to God, "If only Ishmael might live under your blessing!"

19 Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. [d] I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. 20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. 21 But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year." 22 When he had finished speaking with Abraham, God went up from him.

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Deuteronomy 4:25-31

25 After you have had children and grandchildren and have lived in the land a long time—if you then become corrupt and make any kind of idol, doing evil in the eyes of the LORD your God and provoking him to anger, 26 I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you this day that you will quickly perish from the land that you are crossing the Jordan to possess. You will not live there long but will certainly be destroyed. 27 The LORD will scatter you among the peoples, and only a few of you will survive among the nations to which the LORD will drive you. 28 There you will worship man-made gods of wood and stone, which cannot see or hear or eat or smell. 29 But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul. 30 When you are in distress and all these things have happened to you, then in later days you will return to the LORD your God and obey him. 31 For the LORD your God is a merciful God; he will not abandon or destroy you or forget the covenant with your forefathers, which he confirmed to them by oath.

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2 Samuel 23: 1-7

The Last Words of David
1 These are the last words of David:
"The oracle of David son of Jesse,
the oracle of the man exalted by the Most High,
the man anointed by the God of Jacob,
Israel's singer of songs [a] :
2 "The Spirit of the LORD spoke through me;
his word was on my tongue.

3 The God of Israel spoke,
the Rock of Israel said to me:
'When one rules over men in righteousness,
when he rules in the fear of God,

4 he is like the light of morning at sunrise
on a cloudless morning,
like the brightness after rain
that brings the grass from the earth.'

5 "Is not my house right with God?
Has he not made with me an everlasting covenant,
arranged and secured in every part?
Will he not bring to fruition my salvation
and grant me my every desire?

6 But evil men are all to be cast aside like thorns,
which are not gathered with the hand.

7 Whoever touches thorns
uses a tool of iron or the shaft of a spear;
they are burned up where they lie."

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2 Kings 13: 22-23

22 Hazael king of Aram oppressed Israel throughout the reign of Jehoahaz. 23 But the LORD was gracious to them and had compassion and showed concern for them because of his covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. To this day he has been unwilling to destroy them or banish them from his presence.

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I Chronicles 16:7-36

7 That day David first committed to Asaph and his associates this psalm of thanks to the LORD :
8 Give thanks to the LORD, call on his name;
make known among the nations what he has done.

9 Sing to him, sing praise to him;
tell of all his wonderful acts.

10 Glory in his holy name;
let the hearts of those who seek the LORD rejoice.

11 Look to the LORD and his strength;
seek his face always.

12 Remember the wonders he has done,
his miracles, and the judgments he pronounced,

13 O descendants of Israel his servant,
O sons of Jacob, his chosen ones.

14 He is the LORD our God;
his judgments are in all the earth.

15 He remembers his covenant forever,
the word he commanded, for a thousand generations,

16 the covenant he made with Abraham,
the oath he swore to Isaac.

17 He confirmed it to Jacob as a decree,
to Israel as an everlasting covenant:

18 "To you I will give the land of Canaan
as the portion you will inherit."

19 When they were but few in number,
few indeed, and strangers in it,

20 they [c] wandered from nation to nation,
from one kingdom to another.

21 He allowed no man to oppress them;
for their sake he rebuked kings:

22 "Do not touch my anointed ones;
do my prophets no harm."

23 Sing to the LORD, all the earth;
proclaim his salvation day after day.

24 Declare his glory among the nations,
his marvelous deeds among all peoples.

25 For great is the LORD and most worthy of praise;
he is to be feared above all gods.

26 For all the gods of the nations are idols,
but the LORD made the heavens.

27 Splendor and majesty are before him;
strength and joy in his dwelling place.

28 Ascribe to the LORD, O families of nations,
ascribe to the LORD glory and strength,

29 ascribe to the LORD the glory due his name.
Bring an offering and come before him;
worship the LORD in the splendor of his [d] holiness.

30 Tremble before him, all the earth!
The world is firmly established; it cannot be moved.

31 Let the heavens rejoice, let the earth be glad;
let them say among the nations, "The LORD reigns!"

32 Let the sea resound, and all that is in it;
let the fields be jubilant, and everything in them!

33 Then the trees of the forest will sing,
they will sing for joy before the LORD,
for he comes to judge the earth.

34 Give thanks to the LORD, for he is good;
his love endures forever.

35 Cry out, "Save us, O God our Savior;
gather us and deliver us from the nations,
that we may give thanks to your holy name,
that we may glory in your praise."

36 Praise be to the LORD, the God of Israel,
from everlasting to everlasting.
Then all the people said "Amen" and "Praise the LORD."

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Psalm 105

1 Give thanks to the LORD, call on his name;
make known among the nations what he has done.

2 Sing to him, sing praise to him;
tell of all his wonderful acts.

3 Glory in his holy name;
let the hearts of those who seek the LORD rejoice.

4 Look to the LORD and his strength;
seek his face always.

5 Remember the wonders he has done,
his miracles, and the judgments he pronounced,

6 O descendants of Abraham his servant,
O sons of Jacob, his chosen ones.

7 He is the LORD our God;
his judgments are in all the earth.

8 He remembers his covenant forever,
the word he commanded, for a thousand generations,

9 the covenant he made with Abraham,
the oath he swore to Isaac.

10 He confirmed it to Jacob as a decree,
to Israel as an everlasting covenant:

11 "To you I will give the land of Canaan
as the portion you will inherit."

12 When they were but few in number,
few indeed, and strangers in it,

13 they wandered from nation to nation,
from one kingdom to another.

14 He allowed no one to oppress them;
for their sake he rebuked kings:

15 "Do not touch my anointed ones;
do my prophets no harm."

16 He called down famine on the land
and destroyed all their supplies of food;

17 and he sent a man before them—
Joseph, sold as a slave.

18 They bruised his feet with shackles,
his neck was put in irons,

19 till what he foretold came to pass,
till the word of the LORD proved him true.

20 The king sent and released him,
the ruler of peoples set him free.

21 He made him master of his household,
ruler over all he possessed,

22 to instruct his princes as he pleased
and teach his elders wisdom.

23 Then Israel entered Egypt;
Jacob lived as an alien in the land of Ham.

24 The LORD made his people very fruitful;
he made them too numerous for their foes,

25 whose hearts he turned to hate his people,
to conspire against his servants.

26 He sent Moses his servant,
and Aaron, whom he had chosen.

27 They performed his miraculous signs among them,
his wonders in the land of Ham.

28 He sent darkness and made the land dark—
for had they not rebelled against his words?

29 He turned their waters into blood,
causing their fish to die.

30 Their land teemed with frogs,
which went up into the bedrooms of their rulers.

31 He spoke, and there came swarms of flies,
and gnats throughout their country.

32 He turned their rain into hail,
with lightning throughout their land;

33 he struck down their vines and fig trees
and shattered the trees of their country.

34 He spoke, and the locusts came,
grasshoppers without number;

35 they ate up every green thing in their land,
ate up the produce of their soil.

36 Then he struck down all the firstborn in their land,
the firstfruits of all their manhood.

37 He brought out Israel, laden with silver and gold,
and from among their tribes no one faltered.

38 Egypt was glad when they left,
because dread of Israel had fallen on them.

39 He spread out a cloud as a covering,
and a fire to give light at night.

40 They asked, and he brought them quail
and satisfied them with the bread of heaven.

41 He opened the rock, and water gushed out;
like a river it flowed in the desert.

42 For he remembered his holy promise
given to his servant Abraham.

43 He brought out his people with rejoicing,
his chosen ones with shouts of joy;

44 he gave them the lands of the nations,
and they fell heir to what others had toiled for-

45 that they might keep his precepts
and observe his laws.
Praise the LORD. [a]

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Psalm 106

1 Praise the LORD. [a]
Give thanks to the LORD, for he is good;
his love endures forever.

2 Who can proclaim the mighty acts of the LORD
or fully declare his praise?

3 Blessed are they who maintain justice,
who constantly do what is right.

4 Remember me, O LORD, when you show favor to your people,
come to my aid when you save them,

5 that I may enjoy the prosperity of your chosen ones,
that I may share in the joy of your nation
and join your inheritance in giving praise.

6 We have sinned, even as our fathers did;
we have done wrong and acted wickedly.

7 When our fathers were in Egypt,
they gave no thought to your miracles;
they did not remember your many kindnesses,
and they rebelled by the sea, the Red Sea.

8 Yet he saved them for his name's sake,
to make his mighty power known.

9 He rebuked the Red Sea, and it dried up;
he led them through the depths as through a desert.

10 He saved them from the hand of the foe;
from the hand of the enemy he redeemed them.

11 The waters covered their adversaries;
not one of them survived.

12 Then they believed his promises
and sang his praise.

13 But they soon forgot what he had done
and did not wait for his counsel.

14 In the desert they gave in to their craving;
in the wasteland they put God to the test.

15 So he gave them what they asked for,
but sent a wasting disease upon them.

16 In the camp they grew envious of Moses
and of Aaron, who was consecrated to the LORD.

17 The earth opened up and swallowed Dathan;
it buried the company of Abiram.

18 Fire blazed among their followers;
a flame consumed the wicked.

19 At Horeb they made a calf
and worshiped an idol cast from metal.

20 They exchanged their Glory
for an image of a bull, which eats grass.

21 They forgot the God who saved them,
who had done great things in Egypt,

22 miracles in the land of Ham
and awesome deeds by the Red Sea.

23 So he said he would destroy them—
had not Moses, his chosen one,
stood in the breach before him
to keep his wrath from destroying them.

24 Then they despised the pleasant land;
they did not believe his promise.

25 They grumbled in their tents
and did not obey the LORD.

26 So he swore to them with uplifted hand
that he would make them fall in the desert,

27 make their descendants fall among the nations
and scatter them throughout the lands.

28 They yoked themselves to the Baal of Peor
and ate sacrifices offered to lifeless gods;

29 they provoked the LORD to anger by their wicked deeds,
and a plague broke out among them.

30 But Phinehas stood up and intervened,
and the plague was checked.

31 This was credited to him as righteousness
for endless generations to come.

32 By the waters of Meribah they angered the LORD,
and trouble came to Moses because of them;

33 for they rebelled against the Spirit of God,
and rash words came from Moses' lips. [c]

34 They did not destroy the peoples
as the LORD had commanded them,

35 but they mingled with the nations
and adopted their customs.

36 They worshiped their idols,
which became a snare to them.

37 They sacrificed their sons
and their daughters to demons.

38 They shed innocent blood,
the blood of their sons and daughters,
whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan,
and the land was desecrated by their blood.

39 They defiled themselves by what they did;
by their deeds they prostituted themselves.

40 Therefore the LORD was angry with his people
and abhorred his inheritance.

41 He handed them over to the nations,
and their foes ruled over them.

42 Their enemies oppressed them
and subjected them to their power.

43 Many times he delivered them,
but they were bent on rebellion
and they wasted away in their sin.

44 But he took note of their distress
when he heard their cry;

45 for their sake he remembered his covenant
and out of his great love he relented.

46 He caused them to be pitied
by all who held them captive.

47 Save us, O LORD our God,
and gather us from the nations,
that we may give thanks to your holy name
and glory in your praise.

48 Praise be to the LORD, the God of Israel,
from everlasting to everlasting.
Let all the people say, "Amen!"
Praise the LORD.

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Psalm 111

1[a] Praise the LORD.
I will extol the LORD with all my heart
in the council of the upright and in the assembly.

2 Great are the works of the LORD;
they are pondered by all who delight in them.

3 Glorious and majestic are his deeds,
and his righteousness endures forever.

4 He has caused his wonders to be remembered;
the LORD is gracious and compassionate.

5 He provides food for those who fear him;
he remembers his covenant forever.

6 He has shown his people the power of his works,
giving them the lands of other nations.

7 The works of his hands are faithful and just;
all his precepts are trustworthy.

8 They are steadfast for ever and ever,
done in faithfulness and uprightness.

9 He provided redemption for his people;
he ordained his covenant forever—
holy and awesome is his name.

10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom;
all who follow his precepts have good understanding.
To him belongs eternal praise.

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Jeremiah 16: 59-62

59 " 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will deal with you as you deserve, because you have despised my oath by breaking the covenant. 60 Yet I will remember the covenant I made with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish an everlasting covenant with you. 61 Then you will remember your ways and be ashamed when you receive your sisters, both those who are older than you and those who are younger. I will give them to you as daughters, but not on the basis of my covenant with you. 62 So I will establish my covenant with you, and you will know that I am the LORD. 63 Then, when I make atonement for you for all you have done, you will remember and be ashamed and never again open your mouth because of your humiliation, declares the Sovereign LORD.' "

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Micah 17: 18-20

18 Who is a God like you,
who pardons sin and forgives the transgression
of the remnant of his inheritance?
You do not stay angry forever
but delight to show mercy.

19 You will again have compassion on us;
you will tread our sins underfoot
and hurl all our iniquities into the depths of the sea.

20 You will be true to Jacob,
and show mercy to Abraham,
as you pledged on oath to our fathers
in days long ago.

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Galatians 3: 15-23

15Brothers, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed,"[g] meaning one person, who is Christ. 17What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.
19What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. 20A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one.

21Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

23Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ[h] that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

PLEASE NOTE THAT THE ABOVE SCRIPTURES STATE WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING...THE EVERLASTING COVENANT WILL BE RECONCILED WITH THE REQUIREMENT TO BELIEVE IN CHRIST AS OUR SAVIOUR AT THE SECOND COMING WHEN THE JEWS WILL BE GIVEN A SECOND CHANCE TO ACCEPT HIM AS THEIR MESSIAH!!!

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Ephesians 2: 11-19

11Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.
14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

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Romans 4
Abraham Justified by Faith
1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."[a]
4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7"Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him."

9Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

13It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, 15because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

16Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations."[c] He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.

18Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, "So shall your offspring be."[d] 19Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old—and that Sarah's womb was also dead. 20Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22This is why "it was credited to him as righteousness." 23The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone, 24but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

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Romans 11

The Remnant of Israel
1I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3"Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me"[a]? 4And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal." 5So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
7What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8as it is written:
"God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes so that they could not see
and ears so that they could not hear,
to this very day."[d] 9And David says:
"May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever."[e]

Ingrafted Branches
11Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!
13I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

All Israel Will Be Saved HELLO!

25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this is[f] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."[g]
28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Doxology
33Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
34"Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?"[j]
35"Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay him?"[k]
36For from him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.

*****************************

Romans 15
1We who are strong ought to bear with the failings of the weak and not to please ourselves. 2Each of us should please his neighbor for his good, to build him up. 3For even Christ did not please himself but, as it is written: "The insults of those who insult you have fallen on me."[a] 4For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

5May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus, 6so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

7Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God. 8For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God's truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs 9so that the Gentiles may glorify God for his mercy, as it is written:
"Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles;
I will sing hymns to your name."[c] 10Again, it says,
"Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people."[d] 11And again,
"Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles,
and sing praises to him, all you peoples."[e] 12And again, Isaiah says,
"The Root of Jesse will spring up,
one who will arise to rule over the nations;
the Gentiles will hope in him."[f]

13May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Paul the Minister to the Gentiles
14I myself am convinced, my brothers, that you yourselves are full of goodness, complete in knowledge and competent to instruct one another. 15I have written you quite boldly on some points, as if to remind you of them again, because of the grace God gave me 16to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles with the priestly duty of proclaiming the gospel of God, so that the Gentiles might become an offering acceptable to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.
17Therefore I glory in Christ Jesus in my service to God. 18I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in leading the Gentiles to obey God by what I have said and done— 19by the power of signs and miracles, through the power of the Spirit. So from Jerusalem all the way around to Illyricum, I have fully proclaimed the gospel of Christ. 20It has always been my ambition to preach the gospel where Christ was not known, so that I would not be building on someone else's foundation. 21Rather, as it is written:
"Those who were not told about him will see,
and those who have not heard will understand."[g] 22This is why I have often been hindered from coming to you.

Paul's Plan to Visit Rome
23But now that there is no more place for me to work in these regions, and since I have been longing for many years to see you, 24I plan to do so when I go to Spain. I hope to visit you while passing through and to have you assist me on my journey there, after I have enjoyed your company for a while. 25Now, however, I am on my way to Jerusalem in the service of the saints there. 26For Macedonia and Achaia were pleased to make a contribution for the poor among the saints in Jerusalem. 27They were pleased to do it, and indeed they owe it to them. For if the Gentiles have shared in the Jews' spiritual blessings, they owe it to the Jews to share with them their material blessings. 28So after I have completed this task and have made sure that they have received this fruit, I will go to Spain and visit you on the way. 29I know that when I come to you, I will come in the full measure of the blessing of Christ.
30I urge you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to join me in my struggle by praying to God for me. 31Pray that I may be rescued from the unbelievers in Judea and that my service in Jerusalem may be acceptable to the saints there, 32so that by God's will I may come to you with joy and together with you be refreshed. 33The God of peace be with you all. Amen.




[edit on 12-2-2005 by Valhall]

Originally posted by Raphael_UO

Originally posted by just me 2
God will not allow sin to enter His Kingdom.

When Elijah was lifted up by a whirlwind into Heaven, was he sinless or did he not enter into God's Kingdom?

"The Kingdom of Heaven is in you and all around you"
-Yehoshua Ben Yosef (a.k.a. Jesus)

Valhall~
I didn't ask for the entire Bible!!

I will have to read/reply to your lengthy post tomorrow. I have to get ready for work!

Originally posted by Valhall
I do not agree with your interpretation on this verse. It does not say - plain or clearly - what you have there.

It does not say "through whom all men will be saved". It says "who will have all men to be saved". I would have all men to be saved if I had my way as well. He is the way in which all men would be saved, could be saved, and will be saved if they so choose. Free moral agency still applies...always, or at least aionion...since we're just here with the chance to use it for a finite time. See? I'm catching on.

Isaiah 55:7-11
Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

If you combine this verse with 1 Timothy 2:3-6, it is very difficult to argue that God will not save all men.

Originally posted by Valhall
Concerning your question to jj on John 3:16:

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Your first two questions, I respond with - excuse me? It states it right there?

It says whoever believes in him shall not perish, but where does it say whoever doesn't believe in him 'will' perish? In the Greek at least, it isn't there at all. In the English translations I've seen it is possible to interpret it that way, but I believe these false interpretations come about because the translations used are easily twisted out of context.

Originally posted by Valhall
it has a root of aion which comes also from the root aei. aei means continued duration, ever, regularly, earnestly - always, ever. aion means an age; by extension perpetuity, by implication the world, specifically (Jewish) a messianic period: age, course, eternal, ever

so I don't see what the problem is here.

The problem is that 'aiona' means age, but an age is measurable, whereas the word 'aionion' is translated to mean everlasting in the English translations. This is inaccurate, I've never met any Greek person who has used 'aionion' to mean everlasting. The word that is used to mean everlasting is 'panta' and 'panta' was used in the same context in Ancient Greece, so if that is the meaning John wanted to convey, then why did he use the word 'aionion' which all Greeks I know take to mean 'for centuries/ages to come' when a perfectly suitable word - 'panta' already existed?

Originally posted by Valhall
Your next question - Does it say those without belief or faith will face everlasting punishment?

It depends on what you define punishment as. And this is where you and I might find more common ground than I and others in this thread. I can't find a great scriptural backing for an eternal fire that's going to torment for eternity those who reject the Christ. But I have considered the following.

I do not believe that it says anywhere in the Greek NT that people will be eternally separated from God. What I do believe it says is this;


1 Corinthians 15:21-22
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

The jews are Gods chosen people and we are told to stand beside the jews. And I would think, the jews being Gods chosen the they would be the firsat ones into heaven. I also dont think heaven is made up of only christians.

Originally posted by Simon_the_byron

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

It says whoever believes in him shall not perish, but where does it say whoever doesn't believe in him 'will' perish? In the Greek at least, it isn't there at all. In the English translations I've seen it is possible to interpret it that way, but I believe these false interpretations come about because the translations used are easily twisted out of context.

I'm sorry. I'll continue to discuss this with you in as civil of a manner as I possibly can, and I will continue to consider all your statements, but I won't let something this silly stand without yelling foul.

There's simply no point in stating "that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" if the intent was to transmit the single concept "that whoever believes in him [will] have eternal life".

If I say...

"Whoever joins me in this effort will not be taxed but will share in the profits"

it is not the same as

"Whoever joins me in this effort will share in the profits"

now is it? Because the second one states you'll get part of the profits of the effort, but doesn't get you off the hook for taxes and doesn't even acknowledge whether taxes may, in fact, exist, while the other explicitly acknowledges the existence of taxes and clarifies not only will you share in the profit of the effort, but you'll be released from the burden of the taxes.

There's no way around the fact the verse acknowledges the existence of "a perishing" that it then states the believer can avoid. And with the operative phrase in that sentence being "believing in him", the avoidance of the acknowledged "perishing" necessarily comes through the act of "believing in him". Not only is the negative avoided, it is replaced with the positive assurance of "eternal life". The sentence is duplicative in its message. You will avoid the negative that exists and receive the anti-thesis.

[edit on 12-3-2005 by Valhall]

It makes me feel really good that people want to argue about what the bible says. We arent supposed to argue about it but we are supposed to apply it to our lives. Spread the word of God and help the unbelivers, dont argue what it says. People are dying and going to hell every minute of everyday and for what, because we are argueing about what it says to do. STOP!!!! And go win souls for the Lord God Almighty

Originally posted by just me 2
Can you back up your opinion with Scripture?

Christians assume heaven means there heaven
Jews assume it's theirs
same goes for most religions with a heaven

therefore they all use their own religious scripture, so how about the koran, the book of mormon, the Mahabarrata etc?

If the person ultimately came to accept Christ as their lord and savior and attempted to live their life as Jesus taught then I would agree they have found their salvation.

what if i didn't accept Jesus as my lord and savior? and instead of following the teachings of Jesus followed the nearly identical teachings the Buddha presented hundreds of years earlier? would i be damned?

Originally posted by Valhall

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

There's simply no point in stating "that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" if the intent was to transmit the single concept "that whoever believes in him [will] have eternal life".
[edit on 12-3-2005 by Valhall]

The problem is with the translation, which doesn't fully convey the meaning of the original language - it is as accurate as it can be, but as a Greek who also speaks reasonably good English I can see the subtle differences between translations and the original Greek NT.

John 3:16
ουτως γαρ ηγαπησεν ο θεος τον κοσμον ωστε τον υιον αυτου τον μονογενη εδωκεν ινα πας ο πιστευων εις αυτον μη αποληται αλλ εχη ζωην αιωνιον

The word translated as perishing is 'αποληται' which basically means to destroy, in what way does this imply everlasting punishment?

In fact, how can punishment be everlasting if the end result is destruction?

Doesn't make any sense to me logically, but hey - I'm new to this compared to most. Only been reading the bible for the past year really, I may have missed some important details.

[2.113] And the Jews say: The Christians do not follow anything (good) and the Christians say: The Jews do not follow anything (good) while they recite the (same) Book. Even thus say those who have no knowledge, like to what they say; so Allah shall judge between them on the day of resurrection in what they differ.